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Which knight in Westeros history incarnated the best the ideals of chivalry ?


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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

These sort of stuff make them bad/unworthy knights but the point of being a member of the kingsguard is not to be a worthy knight. When you are a knight OF THE KINGSGUARD, you are OF THE KINGSGUARD first and knight second. There are thousands upon thousands of knights on the land that can fulfill the role of a worthy knight but only seven knights for the kingsguard, so oaths to the king comes before oaths as a knight if they contradict. If you are uncomfortable with not being a worthy knight, you shouldn't join the KG in the first place.

That's true, but it still wouldn't change the fact that they aren't chivalrous. And we can see that kingsguard does not always mean a worthy knight, but the people in the story see it as being for worthy knights, thinking it's gone to rust with the poor members in recent years and thinking about how previous members were much better, even though they weren't really. The Kingsguard are seen as the 'gold standard' of knights in a way.

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9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's true, but it still wouldn't change the fact that they aren't chivalrous. And we can see that kingsguard does not always mean a worthy knight, but the people in the story see it as being for worthy knights, thinking it's gone to rust with the poor members in recent years and thinking about how previous members were much better, even though they weren't really. The Kingsguard are seen as the 'gold standard' of knights in a way.

Well, it more or less is the gold standard. To be chosen to the KG is supposed to be the greatest honor a knight can get and ideally, you'll want to choose the best knights so for admittance in to the club you have to be, again ideally, a worthy knight. It is only after your admittance that your knightly vows should get flexible in the service of your king. But as said, this is all "ideally" as we know this is a feudal society and there are political appointments as well. A huge lunky knight like Dunk would of course physically more preferrable to someone of average height but if that someone of average height is from a powerful house, say like Hightowers, even the fifth son of the Lord's younger non inheriting brother would usually get ahead of the physically imposing Dunk.

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16 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Well Ser Jaime lists LC Osmund Hightower as one of half dozen people in the realm stronger then him alongside the Hound, Robert, Brienne and the Mountain so he was probably a massive wall of a man in his own right.

Chivalry :mellow:

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19 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Chivalry :mellow:

He was likely responding to my post above. But without quotes, can't be sure.

35 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Well Ser Jaime lists LC Osmund Hightower as one of half dozen people in the realm stronger then him alongside the Hound, Robert, Brienne and the Mountain so he was probably a massive wall of a man in his own right.

Hightower was just a name thrown as an example. It may very well have been another. Say, Loras for example. Loras is picked as a KG, he's one of the best tourney knights around but it's just that, a tourney knight. Being a good lancer and horsemen gains you glory in tourney but in battle you'll already be part of dozens if not hundreds of armored men tightly packed and riding in formation so not that much useful in battle and especially not that useful as KG. There are plenty of men who are much better suited as a KG than Loras, even in his family, in the form of Garlan a taller, broadly built man who is a very good swordsman and would practice against 3-4 men, if Garlan was a "Rainbow Knight" and not Loras, it would be a better choice of KG. His was a political appointment that came along with the betrothal to Margaery. 

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

Dunk would never let his king abuse of his wife or burn people alive, no matter the oaths he swore.

That's why he's undefeated.

I hope you're right but I bet you're not.

Duncan would put hands on Egg? Ok bad example, dudes always getting clouts to the ear.

I can not picture Dunk allowing injustice if he's able to stop it, nor can I picture Egg descending into tyranny and madness, however Kingslanding has no saints. Neither did Summerhall 

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On 9/7/2022 at 10:52 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros have given birth and seen grow, live and die countless men who took the oath of chivalry and became knights.

Over its very long history, and in all of its kingdoms, Westeros has seen all kind of knights: people who were idealistic, more cynical individuals, men interested above all by the fame and prestige given by their rank, others by money, nobles, people coming from the bottom of society, individuals with outstanding skills with the sword and/or the spear, weaklings, cheaters, outright monsters such as Gregor Clegane or Ser Armory Loch, etc...

But who amongst these many many knights really incarnated the values of honor, justice, strength and loyalty all at the same time that the stories, tales and the code of chivalry describe ? Who is the best knight that Westeros has ever known, who lived by these ideals and never betrayed them under any circumstance ?

Well, that's easy. Ser Duncan the Tall. Brienne the Maid. That's about it. The motif GRRM is going for is that the truest knights of them all are the ones who are somehow either entirely prevented from being knights like Brienne, or are faking knighthood because they were never properly annointed, as is the case with Dunk. All the others, like Jaime, Barristan or Crystin Cole, and probably Arthur Dayne, have some major skeletons in their closet to indicate that their knightly virtues in public are hollow. 

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7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Willem Darry and his brave companions. 

Davos and his co-conspirators. Davos is, after his knighthood, quite chivalric. He protects the innocent and defends the weak. He spoke up to save the people of Claw Isle, took action to smuggle Edric Storm. It took five loyal men(Andrew Estermont, . Gerald Gower, Triston of Tally Hill, Lewys the Fishwife, and Omer Blackberry) to escort Edric Storm just as it took Willem Darry and four loyal men. Five is the number you need for kidnapping kids I guess.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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On 9/11/2022 at 7:28 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

And how is Arthur Dayne chivalrous compared to Stannis? I can't see much chivalry in abducting the highborn maiden daughter of an ancient house. Add to that the fact that she was bethrothed to another lord as well. Now after considering these, add again the fact that Arthur Dayne wasn't just any household knight but a knight of the kingsguard, sworn to obey his king. Did Aerys the second of his name order him to kidnap this lady and take her to a ruined tower -an unfit lodging for a lady of Lyanna's status- that's somewhere in the Red mountains? I highly doubt it.

Stannis honourably hid on Dragonstone, knowing his brother…and only ‘true’ obstacle to the throne…was surrounded by murderous traitors hiding a secret that endangered the king above all if they feared discovery, sending no help or warning, until whattyaknow, they killed him. He chivalrously murdered his own brother through blood magic. He nobly greeted the recently widowed Lady Stark by complaining about his appointment as Hand over himself. He gallantly chopped off the fingers of the man who saved him for dealing in smuggled goods to do so, but kept his own fingers, which had received those same goods, whole. I could list his knightly accomplishments for pages here, but I think we’ve sufficiently demonstrated his proximity to the answer the OP has asked.

 

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On 9/15/2022 at 2:46 AM, James Arryn said:

Stannis honourably hid on Dragonstone, knowing his brother…and only ‘true’ obstacle to the throne…was surrounded by murderous traitors hiding a secret that endangered the king above all if they feared discovery, sending no help or warning, until whattyaknow, they killed him. He chivalrously murdered his own brother through blood magic. He nobly greeted the recently widowed Lady Stark by complaining about his appointment as Hand over himself. He gallantly chopped off the fingers of the man who saved him for dealing in smuggled goods to do so, but kept his own fingers, which had received those same goods, whole. I could list his knightly accomplishments for pages here, but I think we’ve sufficiently demonstrated his proximity to the answer the OP has asked.

 

 

On 9/12/2022 at 2:44 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis has, recently, fallen short on honorable with the shadow assasinations and planning on child sacrifices and all but is still a brave, just man(a truly just man, as Varys would tell you), defends the innocent, the weak and women. Before the start of the series, can't think of any dishonorable behaviour on his part. 

 

This replies to most of your post. As for Davos... Davos lost those fingers not for smuggling food to Stannis but all his years as a smuggler. Stannis, being just as he is, had to punish Davos for all those years of smuggling but gave the least amount of punishment that he could interpret. 

 

Below, Randyll Tarly dispensing justice.

Quote

 

A stripling in a roughspun cloak and soiled jerkin was being heard when they came up. "I never hurt no one, m'lord," Brienne heard him say. "I only took what the septons left when they run off. If you got to take my finger for that, do it."

"It is customary to take a finger from a thief," Lord Tarly replied in a hard voice, "but a man who steals from a sept is stealing from the gods." He turned to his captain of guards. "Seven fingers. Leave his thumbs."

 

 

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for Davos... Davos lost those fingers not for smuggling food to Stannis but all his years as a smuggler. Stannis, being just as he is, had to punish Davos for all those years of smuggling but gave the least amount of punishment that he could interpret. 

 

Below, Randyll Tarly dispensing justice.

Technically, Smuggling and Thievery are two different crimes, or I imagine they would count as two separate crimes under Westerosi law. Also, I think it's customary to pardon people if they save your life. Stannis taking fingers after the man just saved him from starvation is unnecessary, in my opinion. Surely the fact that Davos saved his life is enough to lift pre-ordained punishments in gratitude/recognition of his exemplary service on that occasion.

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11 hours ago, frenin said:

Nah Duncan is the man and even an unbeliever like you deep down knows it.

 

I know you're not doing Baelor Breakspear like that.

Heh. He just completely slipped my caffiene deprived mind. He holds up pretty well as a paragon of knighthood, but is a vanishingly rare specimin. 

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46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Technically, Smuggling and Thievery are two different crimes, or I imagine they would count as two separate crimes under Westerosi law. Also, I think it's customary to pardon people if they save your life. Stannis taking fingers after the man just saved him from starvation is unnecessary, in my opinion. Surely the fact that Davos saved his life is enough to lift pre-ordained punishments in gratitude/recognition of his exemplary service on that occasion.

Of course. But that was an example of a violent punishment being practiced the way one who's doing it interpreted the law. Law says you take a finger of the thief but Randyll Tarly takes seven the way he interprets it. Can't recall if we've ever been mentioned exactly what the punishment of smuggling is but obviously that Stannis, like Randyll, has interpreted the law in a similar fashion to reduce the amount of punishment exacted while still following what the law says. 

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37 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Of course. But that was an example of a violent punishment being practiced the way one who's doing it interpreted the law. Law says you take a finger of the thief but Randyll Tarly takes seven the way he interprets it. Can't recall if we've ever been mentioned exactly what the punishment of smuggling is but obviously that Stannis, like Randyll, has interpreted the law in a similar fashion to reduce the amount of punishment exacted while still following what the law says.

Obviously how the lord interprets the law will determine the punishment. I just thought that Stannis really could have pardoned Davos completely rather than giving him a less harsh punishment. I mean he would have died without him. 

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