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Jon's Coming Battle with Ramsay


Craving Peaches
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9 hours ago, Rondo said:

Issues of bastardry will be far in the back of Jon's minds.  He will be raised as a wight by the white walkers.  He will keep his free will because his consciousness will be in Ghost or some other animal nearby.  I just hope it's not Craster's son whose body Jon steals.  The poor little fellow is too young to resist a skinchanger.  

I suppose Jon will have to deal with Ramsay. But I don't think it will be at Winterfell. The Dreadfort maybe. Stannis will have taken back Winterfell (mostly the work of Northmen though, and their mummer's show). Ramsay will have killed his father during the confusion, and fled.

For this particular task, and some alike, I would not mind Jon to be accompanied by the Others.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But I don't think it will be at Winterfell. The Dreadfort maybe.

Going by the symbolism I would suggest that their battle occur at the Shadow Tower.

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

For this particular task, and some alike, I would not mind Jon to be accompanied by the Others.

For me it depends on why Jon is accompanied by the Others. I don't see why he would just come back allied with the Others after everything he's done to stop them, just because of Arya. I think before Jon would ever ally with the Others there would need to be some revelation about their nature or the CotF or the original pact. Otherwise I can only see Jon allying with them as part of a longer, built up process where he goes down the road of villainy due to his mounting frustrations with everything/one. It could happen. But I don't expect him to recover/be resurrected and spontaneously ally with his ultimate enemy.

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I agree with many of the parallels and anti-parallels between Jon and Ramsay, but I'd be surprised if Jon and Ramsay ever meet each other.  If they do, it would only because Ramsay survives his defeat at Winterfell and flees, but they won't be fighting each other at Winterfell.

The "battle of Winterfell" is imminent and will take place before there is time for Jon to be raised from the dead, adjust to his second life, and travel countless miles through a blizzard to take part in a battle that is currently ongoing.  So many events need to happen in The Winds of Winter, and there isn't time for the Boltons to triumph against Stannis only to have a second battle of Winterfell against Jon later.  The Boltons aren't endgame characters, and I'm guessing they will be out of the picture fairly early on in TWOW.

I agree with earlier comments that "justice" doesn't always go to the most expected person.  Most people on Arya's list will be dead before the end of the story, I think, but most won't be at Arya's hand.  Petyr/Olenna took out Joffrey... not the Starks or any of the countless other people Joffrey wronged.  Etc.  I don't think Jeyne or Theon will kill Ramsay either, let alone Jon; it will probably be Stannis (unless Ramsay escapes and gets a post-Winterfell arc).  Jon's plan to attack Ramsay is what gave Bowen and his fellow assassins "justification" to murder Jon, but that doesn't mean Jon's plan is going to be fulfilled.

Edited by StarkTullies
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3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Otherwise I can only see Jon allying with them as part of a longer, built up process where he goes down the road of villainy due to his mounting frustrations with everything/one.


I don't think Jon will follow that road.

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think before Jon would ever ally with the Others there would need to be some revelation about their nature or the CotF or the original pact.

Something along that.

We need to know more about what the Others want. And why they return. I believe we need to meet their conditions. Because they cannot be defeated. And otherwise everyone will die. It is, I believe, as in the Yi Ti legends: "came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men". Given the current situation, I feel there is indeed need of punishing some wickedness.

Whether he is restored by the Others because he is the promised prince, or otherwise, he must come to an agreement with them. Otherwise, it is the end of humankind. The current cycle of violence and atrocities will end, one way or another.

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21 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I agree with many of the parallels and anti-parallels between Jon and Ramsay, but I'd be surprised if Jon and Ramsay ever meet each other.  If they do, it would only because Ramsay survives his defeat at Winterfell and flees, but they won't be fighting each other at Winterfell.

The "battle of Winterfell" is imminent and will take place before there is time for Jon to be raised from the dead, adjust to his second life, and travel countless miles through a blizzard to take part in a battle that is currently ongoing.  So many events need to happen in The Winds of Winter, and there isn't time for the Boltons to triumph against Stannis only to have a second battle of Winterfell against Jon later.  The Boltons aren't endgame characters, and I'm guessing they will be out of the picture fairly early on in TWOW.

I agree with earlier comments that "justice" doesn't always go to the most expected person.  Most people on Arya's list will be dead before the end of the story, I think, but most won't be at Arya's hand.  Petyr/Olenna took out Joffrey... not the Starks or any of the countless other people Joffrey wronged.  Etc.  I don't think Jeyne or Theon will kill Ramsay either, let alone Jon; it will probably be Stannis (unless Ramsay escapes and gets a post-Winterfell arc).  Jon's plan to attack Ramsay is what gave Bowen and his fellow assassins "justification" to murder Jon, but that doesn't mean Jon's plan is going to be fulfilled.

I agree with you, justice and vengeance can happen but many times the people that wronged others will be killed or imprisoned by other people who were totally unexpected to do so, like how Balon was killed by Euron, how Vargo Hoat and his men were slaughtered by the Moutain and his gang, or how Joffrey was poisonned by Olenna Tyrell and LF as you said. 

It's far more likely that Ramsay will meet his doom at Stannis or one of the scheming northmen or even Mance and his spearwives than at Jon or Theon's hands right now or that there is any battle between the Starks and the Boltons. 

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On 9/25/2022 at 10:21 PM, StarkTullies said:

So many events need to happen in The Winds of Winter, and there isn't time for the Boltons to triumph against Stannis only to have a second battle of Winterfell against Jon later.  The Boltons aren't endgame characters, and I'm guessing they will be out of the picture fairly early on in TWOW.

Like many you greatly underestimate how much content is left and the speed things will move when POVs start converging. Stannis will fail, Jon will rally his forces and defeat Ramsay for the north, and that will be the trimmer story line as the whole second dance will occur in the south at the same time.

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Stannis could defeat Roose only for Ramsay to escape and fight Jon at a later date. But I think Stannis is nearing his expiration date. If Stannis wins the battle it still won't solve his desperate issue of a food supply, if I remember correctly food was running low in Winterfell too. He could win the battle only to starve.

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2 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Jon died. His ghostly spirit could haunt Castle Black and wait for Ramsay to show. 

I think there is not enough evidence to determine whether Jon is dead or just badly injured, and so whether he would have to be resurrected or just recover from his injuries. If Jon is dead I don't think he would stay dead. Or at least the body won't.

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15 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Like many you greatly underestimate how much content is left and the speed things will move when POVs start converging. Stannis will fail, Jon will rally his forces and defeat Ramsay for the north, and that will be the trimmer story line as the whole second dance will occur in the south at the same time.

I don't think I'm underestimating how much content is left at all.  That is why I think there will only be one Battle of Winterfell against the Boltons, not two, because there is so much that still needs to happen in the story.  I think the Boltons will be defeated early and that will be part of the "story trimming", and I don't think the Boltons are that important.  Stannis is.  I am not a "Stannis is the Mannis" guy, nor do I think he's Azor Ahai, the chosen one, or a character that will survive to the end of the story, but I think Stannis has plenty of story left in TWOW, and the Boltons don't.

I think a Stark will be ruling in Winterfell by the end of TWOW, but whether it is Sansa under the manipulation of Baelish, Manderly ruling in Rickon's name, or Jon risen to power by the resurfacing of Robb's will, I don't know, but I don't think the Starks will regain Winterfell through Jon's warfare.  Jon has a ton of story left, but I don't think that includes fighting Ramsay.

We haven't seen Davos since the first half of ADWD, so I assume his story is not going to pick up in Skaagos.  His absence probably includes his off-the-page travels in Skaagos (somewhat disappointing, but we don't have time for everything), and Davos will appear at Winterfell early on (if he's not already there).  Davos didn't spend his entire story in ADWD negotiating Manderly to Stannis's side just for Manderly to sit passively on the sidelines because Davos hasn't arrived with Rickon yet.  Bolton only wins battles by deceit and treachery, and his deceit by having the Karstarks switch sides against Stannis has already been discovered.  I don't think the Boltons are going to win against Stannis.

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On 9/27/2022 at 5:39 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

What battles has the bastard of Bolton won that Stannis should fear him?

Stannis has no fear of Ramsay, he fears nothing really and that's partly why he's the ultimate villain in this series. He'll probably win the battle, but he will lose the campaign, possibly through sheer bad luck, straight betrayal or trying to push men beyond reasonable endurance, then he'll trudge back and stew on how unjust it all is and eventually do the unthinkable.

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16 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Make that convenient writing. Plenty of times in the series events only happen to push forth a plot twist.

Also which campaign? Campaign for the Iron Throne? Campaign against "the forces of evil"? The Northern campaign? We know he is destined to lose the second one but the third is a guaranteed success with the entire North except Bolton's on Stannis' side though he doesn't know yet. First one I can see him interacting with Danaerys, whether through diplomacy or war. This "unbent iron" of ours, Stannis, has proven to be the most flexible major character so far, trying to reach a compromise with the threat of WWs isn't beyond him.

He will lose in the north. Everything that is converging there, including all the forces Stannis has brought and has set in motion are in the grand narrative scheme of things for Jon. Stannis will fail, burn Shireen, and magically become the main villain of this whole thing. Jon will inherit/pick up the pieces of Stannis's forces and defeat Ramsay control/responsibility of saving the north.

Dany will defeat Stannis but it will be at the very very end and in very magical terms.

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On 9/8/2022 at 12:46 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I feel it would be more satisfying for Jon to beat Ramsay.

Would it though?

This duel or battle seems very much like the kind of fanservice the show would offer and indeed what it did. If Stannis defeats Ramsay then by extension so has Jon given Stannis' key advisor has been Jon.

GRRM isn't all about satisfactory endings, elsewise Joffrey would have been killed by Robb Stark. If it's a pleasing narrative he's going for then the guy to kill Ramsay should be Theon. 

They've been building up to this battle between the Boltons and Stannis since the end of Storm. To have the Bolton's win and then do it again with Jon at the head of the northern army would be pretty underwhelming and impractical given how much time has been devoted to Stannis' campaign. I think the biggest threat to his campaign is the Vale forces tbh. 

Ramsay may escape and have more story to tell but that whole "Battle Of The Bastards" concept wasn't for me. It's not impossible but I'm not very invested in it. 

Edited by TeethGrinder
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1 hour ago, TeethGrinder said:

Would it though?

This duel or battle seems very much like the kind of fanservice the show would offer and indeed what it did. If Stannis defeats Ramsay then by extension so has Jon given Stannis' key advisor has been Jon.

GRRM isn't all about satisfactory endings, elsewise Joffrey would have been killed by Robb Stark. If it's a pleasing narrative he's going for then the guy to kill Ramsay should be Theon. 

They've been building up to this battle between the Boltons and Stannis since the end of Storm. To have the Bolton's win and then do it again with Jon at the head of the northern army would be pretty underwhelming and impractical given how much time has been devoted to Stannis' campaign. I think the biggest threat to his campaign is the Vale forces tbh. 

Ramsay may escape and have more story to tell but that whole "Battle Of The Bastards" concept wasn't for me. It's not impossible but I'm not very invested in it. 

I feel that it would but it's obviously a subjective thing. It's not like the books are chock full of fanservice so I really wouldn't mind in that respect.

I'm not sure how much longer Stannis will be around. He has a serious issue with food supplies and I don't think it will disappear if he takes Winterfell. If I recall correctly food in Winterfell is also running low. I also think that the religious tensions within his army will start to be more of an issue.

I also can't see where his story goes with regards to his plan to take the Throne if he survives and wins the battle with the Boltons. He could try and rally the North to his cause to take back the Throne but everyone will soon have a bigger issue to deal with than that. And Daenerys etc. are coming, how is Stannis going to deal with them? Maybe I'm just not very creative but the only storyline I can see for Stannis is if he stops trying to get the Throne and starts fighting the Others. But he already chose to go fight the Boltons rather than to defend the wall before.

I just get the feeling that his chance for the Throne is gone. He had the chance before but failed to take it, despite having supernatural aid. I think it's over.

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10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yeah, and Ramsay will go to Stannis' camp with 20 good men.

It was not an uncommon theory before the TV show, though it gathered more around Mel doing the deed (and annoyingly still does). Ser Wun Wun was(is?) a good perceptive poster and a few others also picked up on the grounding for it. This is just one topic of discussion.

Stannis will fail, burn Shireen and Jon will pick it all up and defeat Ramsay for the north, just as happened in the show.

But the show had no interest in any of the magic side of things, or Stannis much at all, so they simply stopped Stannis's and Shireen's story after their human deaths, but in the books it will continue.

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On 9/25/2022 at 2:21 PM, StarkTullies said:

I agree with earlier comments that "justice" doesn't always go to the most expected person.  Most people on Arya's list will be dead before the end of the story, I think, but most won't be at Arya's hand.  Petyr/Olenna took out Joffrey... not the Starks or any of the countless other people Joffrey wronged.  Etc.  I don't think Jeyne or Theon will kill Ramsay either,

It would be absurd to claim that every villain will be killed by the one having a death wish on him or her. But I believe it will happen for some. Even if it's not always obvious who is the most legitimate to the claim.

For example, Tywin is Tyrion's father. He should have protected him. But Tywin was the first and foremost to mock him. Not a wonder why Cersei and most everyone went to hate and despise Tyrion. Not Jaime. A wonder a young boy, despite everything that was said around him loved and protected his little brother.

There are different theories about who is the Valonqar. But I believe it's Jaime. And it makes a lot of sense. Because however much she harmed people, Cersei didn't ruin anyone's life more than Jaime's. Some maybe. But they were not her kin, and it may have been somewhat legitimate defense. Tyrion was legitimate for Tywin. Not for Cersei.

Arya has a long kill list. But she may only get a few of them. The Mountain, for example. The Martels had at least as much a claim on him than Arya. Concerning the Freys, I believe Cat is more legitimate to them than Arya. Cat just needs to know the part of Littlefinger in the Red Weeding, her girlhood friend she trusted..

Robert was killed by a boar. But because wolves had killed the White Hart before. Whether the wolves were led by Nymeria or were plain, Robert was killed by wolves (and his stupidity and drunkenness). One would say in retribution for killing Lady, the protector of his future daughter in law. It was Robert who made the decision, not Cersei. Maybe Arya got this one.

I would not draw a list of who will kill who, only because it is justice. But I think il will happen quite a few times.

Edited by BalerionTheCat
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