Alleras and the 3 apples - building on the symbolism from AFFC's prologue.

[Evolett]

On 9/21/2022 at 5:23 PM, Seams said:

Another place where the author uses indigo is in the sigil of House Mallister, which also includes an eagle. Perhaps Melisandre's ability to ingest the indigo poison without suffering harm is connected to her ability to destroy Orell's eagle. (Except that we are told that Orell lives on in Varamyr after the eagle is burned.) 

This really sheds light on the colour indigo. I think we can also directly connect Orell himself to indigo. Consider this: GRRM likely pays homage to author George Orwell in his choice of Orell's name. Now, Orwell was born in India and indigo happens to be named after India because the dye originated from there. Deciphering indigo is then much easier if Orell is also an indigo character: We're not sure if Mel purges, neutralizes or perhaps integrates the indigo poison into her system but she does not succeed in purging indigo Orell who is integrated into Varamyr. So on account of his skinchanging gift, Orell gets to live on in his eagle, passes by this route to another skinchanger and lives on in a human and is presumably integrated into the wolf One-Eye too. An elusive spirit indeed! 

On 9/21/2022 at 5:23 PM, Seams said:

This might mean that Jon Snow (and Sam Tarly?) do have indigo in their spectrum of supporters. Maybe surviving the eagle attack was a way of absorbing indigo into his system.

Perhaps. What this suggests so far is that indigo characters secretly live on and if this process is repeated numerous times over centuries, they are indeed as "undying" as the Undying so strongly associated with indigo. 

Through the eagle which Varamyr uses to "fly" and to "see," and the Undying who fortell the future and give Dany visions, as well as Jason Mallister who is blind and does not noticie Catelyn, indigo is also linked to seeing both literally and supernaturally. That Catelyn sees Mallister while he is blind to her suggests Catelyn represents a more accomplished seer which feeds into my conviction that Catelyn is the originator of Bran's greenseeing gift. It also implies that a green-seer is more powerful than an "indigo-seer." 

Back to Jon Snow. I'm not sure the eagle attack was a way of absorbing indigo but it does mark both Jon and Ghost. 

Quote

Ghost licked his face, his rough wet tongue rasping against the scabs where the eagle’s talons had ripped Jon’s cheek. The bird marked both of us, he thought.  

Perhaps there is rivalry between green and indigo seers which would explain why Renly (strongly associated with green) could not fill the indigo position in his Kingsguard. But I can also see the need to fill the position to complete the rainbow, so perhaps Mallister supporting Jon through Sam's intervention tells us this is only possible through guile or deception. 

 

On 9/21/2022 at 5:23 PM, Seams said:

Leo announces that he wasted his last stag - I think this is a symbolic way of saying that Robert (or possibly Joffrey) died.

Leo Tyrell has Lion/Rose symbolism. He wasted his last stag on food and a rather sumptious meal at that. He was broke after that. I think this can be seen in terms of the fertility theme. Lions and Roses use Stags (fertility symbols) to ensure prosperity (think also of the 77 dishes at Joff's wedding). Tyrells and Lannisters marry Stags. Margery marries a false stag. Wasting the last stag hints at the end of this kind of bountiful prosperity. In contrast, the other lads shared a haunch of boiled mutton. The cornucopia, horn of plenty, dries up. 

 

On 9/21/2022 at 5:23 PM, Seams said:

The lion combination might imply Lannister symbolism or alliance except I think that lions may go further back than the Lannisters - just as House Baratheon took over the stag sigil when they married into the Durrandon family, I suspect that the Lannisters "usurped" the lion sigil for their own use. 

The origin story of Casterly Rock is signifcant here. Though it's a legend dating back to the FM, it contains elements similar to "the boy who lives" phenomenon. 

Quote

Legend tells us the first Casterly lord was a huntsman, Corlos son of Caster, who lived in a village near to where Lannisport stands today. When a lion began preying upon the village’s sheep, Corlos tracked it back to its den, a cave in the base of the Rock. Armed only with a spear, he slew the lion and his mate but spared her newborn cubs— twoiaf 

 Newborn cubs are spared. Could the newborn cubs represent the "Little Lion" / Osgrey? I've wondered why the Little Lion would battle against the great Lannister lion rather than form an alliance with it's "relative." The Casterlys probably used the lion as their sigil, with the Lannisters taking it over as you suggest. It also makes sense that the surviving Little Lions would "seek revenge." The battle between the big lion and the little lion could also be symbolic of a turning point in the attitude of the big lion towards its enemies - following a policy of eliminating all members of a family where possible. 

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

What this suggests so far is that indigo characters secretly live on and if this process is repeated numerous times over centuries, they are indeed as "undying" as the Undying so strongly associated with indigo. 

Through the eagle which Varamyr uses to "fly" and to "see," and the Undying who fortell the future and give Dany visions, as well as Jason Mallister who is blind and does not noticie Catelyn, indigo is also linked to seeing both literally and supernaturally. That Catelyn sees Mallister while he is blind to her suggests Catelyn represents a more accomplished seer which feeds into my conviction that Catelyn is the originator of Bran's greenseeing gift. It also implies that a green-seer is more powerful than an "indigo-seer." 

I like this. These indigo characters may have both specialized vision and an "undying" quality.

One of my half-baked notions is that the Shadow Tower, which is under the command of Denys Mallister, is the Night's Watch version of Valhalla - a place where Night's Watch brothers go after they die. When Qhorin Halfhand shows up to guide Jon Snow toward the Frostfangs, he comes from the Shadow Tower (along with Ebben, Dalbridge and Stonesnake). In some cases, it might be like the line from the movie: "I see dead people and sometimes they don't even know they're dead." In other cases, I think the person does know he is dead but the loyalty to the Night's Watch is so strong that they come back to help defend the Wall or otherwise serve the Lord Commander. Qhorin didn't mind Jon Snow cutting his throat because he was already dead. So the Shadow Tower would be a fitting seat for a Mallister to be in command, dispatching the "undead" brothers of the Night's Watch.

I wonder whether being "undying" is a factor in Bowen Marsh's return from his skirmish with the wildling Weeper? He is "healed" at the Shadow Tower after the fight at the Bridge of Skulls.

Regarding the special sight achieved through the eagle, it is through a Catelyn POV that we are told that ravens have the power to fly through the door between life and death. (Crones can peer through the door, but ravens can pass freely back and forth, apparently.) I wonder whether eagles also have something of that power? This would link back to the possible undying status of Denys Mallister, but also explain the importance of the eagle being able to fly above the wall - a power that was apparently not held by Queen Alysanne's dragon. 

Or maybe it's not just the eagle, but animals under the influence of skinchangers that can pass beyond the Wall? Maybe the mother direwolf was able to go south of the Wall while pregnant because she had been brought over by a skinchanger (Lyanna, I'm guessing). 

Maybe Catelyn seeing Mallister while he fails to recognize her is foreshadowing of her Lady Stoneheart fate. She can see him because she is about to be a crone and can see through the "door" between life and death. He doesn't see her because she is not going to "die": she is going to be brought back to life by the dark magic of the kiss from Beric Dondarrion, bypassing the normal cycle of death and rebirth experienced by most characters in ASOIAF.

[Evolett]

21 hours ago, Seams said:

Regarding the special sight achieved through the eagle, it is through a Catelyn POV that we are told that ravens have the power to fly through the door between life and death. (Crones can peer through the door, but ravens can pass freely back and forth, apparently.) I wonder whether eagles also have something of that power? This would link back to the possible undying status of Denys Mallister, but also explain the importance of the eagle being able to fly above the wall - a power that was apparently not held by Queen Alysanne's dragon. 

Possibly. Maybe eagles do have the ability to transcend magical barriers. Drogon looks like an eagle to Dany (her last chapter in Dance). So perhaps unlike Queen Alysanne's dragon, Drogon won't balk at flying across the Wall. 

Eagles have keen eyesight. Their being part of the Sphinx has me thinking about the glass candles also introduced in the prologue chapter to aFFc. This is where learn more about their origin and function. There are three black ones and one green one, perhaps another reference to the different Sphinxes? Three black corresponding to the three-headed dragon, green the Alleras Sphinx (Alleras does wear green / the Citadel ones)? 

Upon re-reading Sam's last chapter in aFFC, I realized Marwyn left his black glass candle behind when he left for the docks:

Quote

“Sphinx, look after this one.” “I will,” Alleras answered, but the archmaester was already gone. They heard his boots stomping down the steps. “Where has he gone?” asked Sam, bewildered. “To the docks. The Mage is not a man who believes in wasting time.” Alleras smiled. “I have a confession. Ours was no chance encounter, Sam. The Mage sent me to snatch you up before you spoke to Theobald. He knew that you were coming.” “How?” Alleras nodded at the glass candle.

Following this, we deduce that the pasty-faced youth also in Marwyn's chambers is none other than the Alchemist who has taken the real Pate's face. The alchemist holds a master key for the Citadel and is looking for something important - could it be he's after one of the candles? He's right there in the chamber with it. If this Alchemist faceless man is the same one that killed Balon Greyjoy, is his new mission to obtain a glass candle for Euron? Euron has collected a number of Valyrian artefacts. Him wanting a glass candle makes sense. But which though? Is there a difference between the black and the green? Can one for instance see further with the green than with the black? Penetrate regions underground or beyond the range of the black? 

It's also interesting that Sam, dubbed  "Lady Piggy" by Alliser Thorne of the onyx eyes arrives at the Citadel just when Pate the Pig Boy meets his end and is replaced by a fake. The original Pate wasn't making progress at the Citadel. He hadn't acquired any links at all. Like Pate, Sam looked after ravens. Sam is Pate the pig boy's replacement I'll bet, a smart young man who may quickly forge his links. Perhaps he will see through the fake Pate? Can't wait to read what GRRM has in store for Sam.  

 

 

[Daeron the Daring]

I must say I lost and found the line a couple of times reading through this thread, but very much worth it. I felt like I was losing some attention thou, as a rather strange idea evolved in me the whole time.

So I started out as connecting Jon to the Sphinx's sphere of existence, basically theorizing that the Sphinx should be TPTWP, etc, but that wasn't today, the whole thing is messy in my head, incomplete.

But then, today, reading through what's been left of the thread, I got into the "child of three" symbolism.

Now of course, this little sequence comes from Daenerys' chapter while at  the HotU, and it clearly refers to Daenerys being a Targaryen, a descendant of the three heads of the dragon, Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya, who conquered Westeros.

But oh well, Jon is a Targaryen too (even if a bastard), how does he fit into being a child of three, being one or the sole element of the Sphinx? Well, you see, I realised, Jon has three parents: Rhaegar Targaryen, Lyanna Stark and Eddard Stark. His biological parents are of course Lyanna and Rhaegar, but it was Ned Stark who served as his father figure. Thus he's a child of three too, at this point on two separate levels, the other one being a descendant of the three original heads of the dragon.

But if we want to look closely, Daenerys fits exactly into this picture, in two separate ways too:

1.  She is a child of Rhaella and Aerys II, but she, just as Jon, was raised by neither of her biological parents, and the real father figure to her was Ser Willem Darry.
2. She is a child of Rhaella and Ser Bonifer Hasty, and we can consider either Aerys or Ser Willem Darry.

Important sidenote: Daenerys' situation actually works well in both cases, but in different ways. If we consider the first option to be the case, then it becomes a clear and good parallel, but the second one is just as good, altough it may seem worse at first. Now of course, with ser Bonifer Hasty entering the picture, we have a 4th person instead of 3 (and Aerys II isn't the  father figure she grew up with), but hear me out: This way both Daenerys and Jon are unaware of their real heritage, and they both think of someone (their uncles) else as their father, rather than their real father. 

But the oh shit part comes now, because this whole thing parallels Tyrion's situatuion too:

Let's assume Tyrion is the son of Joanna Lannister and Aerys II. This way, Tyrion too, considers someone else to be his biological father rather than who it actually is. And on top of that, the person who serves as his father figure is again related to the mother, making Tywin and Tyrion first cousins once removed (not uncle and niece/nephew this time)

So we get our three heads of the dragons being:

• Tyrion: Child of three, namely Aerys II Targaryen and Joanna Lannister, father tought to be Tywin Lannister (first cousin once removed)
• Jon: Child of three, namely Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, father tought to be Ned Stark (uncle)
• Daenerys: Child of three, namely 1. Ser Bonifer Hasty and Rhaella Targaryen, father tought to be Aerys II Targaryen (uncle) or 2. Aerys II Targaryen and Rhaella Targaryen, father figure being Ser Willam Darry.

Three heads of the dragon, all three children of 3 parents and the three conquerors of Westeros from house Targaryen.

Now I know this theory sounds a lot better with Ser Bonifer Hasty being the father of Daenerys, but we gotta take into account that Jon is being paralleled with both Tyrion and Daenerys, whereas Tyrion and Daenerys aren't really, and the speculation that Ser Bonifer Hasty is Daenerys' father is just a way to make the distance between those two smaller. I also know that this trio is very often linked with the identity of the thre heads, I just wanted to point out some similarities I havent seen to be noticed before.

I am also not trying to interconnect this with the Sphinx now, since it's late for me here, and I'm exhausted aswell. Somebody else could do a better job at that, because I feel rather conflicted about it. (Mainly because of Tyrion)

[Rosetta Stone]

@Daeron the Daring  The 3 is a special identification number for Dany.  While yes, you can find instances of 3 in other people, it is clearly in reference to Dany.  So take a look at Cersei.  She has three children.  Does that mean that 3 is significant to her?  I don't believe so.  There are other third child as well as those with stepfathers.  But the Child Of Three is really Dany's identity and proof of her heritage.  Here is a further example.  The deaths of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the Tower Of Joy coincides with the conception of Dany.  Thus, she is the daughter of death. 

The identity of the two remaining dragon riders is another story.  I hope it's not Jon and Tyrion but we will know when GM makes that revelation. 

[Daeron the Daring]

10 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

@Daeron the Daring  The 3 is a special identification number for Dany.  While yes, you can find instances of 3 in other people, it is clearly in reference to Dany.  So take a look at Cersei.  She has three children.  Does that mean that 3 is significant to her?  I don't believe so.  There are other third child as well as those with stepfathers.  But the Child Of Three is really Dany's identity and proof of her heritage.  Here is a further example.  The deaths of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent at the Tower Of Joy coincides with the conception of Dany.  Thus, she is the daughter of death. 

The identity of the two remaining dragon riders is another story.  I hope it's not Jon and Tyrion but we will know when GM makes that revelation. 

Hm, not necesarilly. The HotU shows Daenerys things about others mainly, mostly others with the closest connection to her (person or theme-wise).

I wasn't saying Daenerys isn't the child of three, the connections are intriguing is áll.

But the number three had always been associated with the Targaryens, not simply and purely Daenerys. I am personally very much unpleasant about Tyrion being a Targaryen, but what can I do? This rather seems to be an "I don't want to" from you, personal preferance over rationality.

Three is a very common number as it is, (not because it's a magical one) and you have it everywhere. The undying were talking about and to Daenerys, as she was the one there, not somebody else. They clearly don't talk about others, but you have the small details everywhere.

[Sandy Clegg]

11 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Three is a very common number as it is, (not because it's a magical one) and you have it everywhere. The undying were talking about and to Daenerys, as she was the one there, not somebody else. They clearly don't talk about others, but you have the small details everywhere.

Number three has so many connections, true. I'm now leaning more toward the idea that the apples have multiple meanings, especially after listening to a podcast where GRRM says the Prologue of AFFC alone took him the best part of a year to write.

One of the things I've noticed, which I can't believe I overlooked, is that there is a heavy correlation between the three apples and the three aspects of Hecate  - the goddess of the three Fates (often called the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone).

We can consider the withered apple to be the Crone, the wormy apple to be the Mother (pregnant with worms - gross) and the 'untouched' apple to be the Maiden. Interestingly, these figures are common to not only our mythology, but that of Westeros, at least as three figures in the Faith of the Seven. 

GRRM clearly wants these three figures to be associated together, as later in the book Brienne and Pod come across 'counterparts' of the three fates:

Quote

They seemed a shy folk for the most part, but near midday the dog began to bark again, and three women emerged from the reeds to give Meribald a woven basket full of clams. He gave each of them an orange in return, though clams were as common as mud in this world, and oranges were rare and costly. One of the women was very old, one was heavy with child, and one was a girl as fresh and pretty as a flower in spring. When Meribald took them off to hear their sins, Ser Hyle chuckled, and said, "It would seem the gods walk with us . . . at least the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone." Podrick looked so astonished that Brienne had to tell him no, they were only three marsh women.

- AFFC, Brienne V

So perhaps one of the purposes of the three apples scene in the prologue is to introduce the idea that book passages containing food (and fruit in particular) are being used by the author to give foreshadowing (literary 'prophecy' or 'fate').

I highlighted the dog due to its association in Classical Mythology with the goddess Hecate (Fate):

Quote

Dogs were closely associated with Hecate in the Classical world. "In art and in literature Hecate is constantly represented as dog-shaped or as accompanied by a dog. Her approach was heralded by the howling of a dog. The dog was Hecate's regular sacrificial animal, and was often eaten in solemn sacrament."

- Wikipedi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate

 

[Damsel in Distress]

On 9/12/2022 at 2:53 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

I interpret the story as the Sphinx being a creature of contradictions.  It disguised its gender and enters a male world.  It descends from the family who brought down Rhaenys and her dragon, yet it is also carrying Targaryen genes.  The Sphinx is part Martell supposedly carrying out the Sand Snake plot but it likely has a script of its own that it is playing.  It hungers for and seeks knowledge, just like our Dany.  It lives in a man's world, just like Dany had to do in the past in Drogo's khalasar.  This Alleras will become one of the three dragon riders.  It will be one of Dany's wingman to protect her flanks. 

Here is what I said before. 

Just as easily those apples could mean nothing.  It just showcases her skills with the weapon.  

[Evolett]

3 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Just as easily those apples could mean nothing.  It just showcases her skills with the weapon. 

Oh, but this approach spoils the fun and challenge of Interpretation. The prologue chapters in particular contain important clues, imo, and are meant to provide the reader with some background information to aspects of the story otherwise hidden. To the magical side of things, most likely. We may not always be right but it's worth having a go at it .

[Evolett]

5 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

We can consider the withered apple to be the Crone, the wormy apple to be the Mother (pregnant with worms - gross) and the 'untouched' apple to be the Maiden. Interestingly, these figures are common to not only our mythology, but that of Westeros, at least as three figures in the Faith of the Seven.

I really like this too. The apples have a female feel to them. Perhaps GRRM is having fun with Rosey - rosy apples. Perhaps the second apple gives birth to twins, one "good apple" and one "rotton apple." If it's a metaphor then it would be referring to one corrupt "apple" amongst the three dragons/riders. 

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

I really like this too. The apples have a female feel to them. Perhaps GRRM is having fun with Rosey - rosy apples. Perhaps the second apple gives birth to twins, one "good apple" and one "rotton apple." If it's a metaphor then it would be referring to one corrupt "apple" amongst the three dragons/riders. 

We’ll never get to the bottom of it, let’s face it

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Sandy Clegg said:

We’ll never get to the bottom of it, let’s face it

Probably not fully but I'm sure we've made some progress 

[Sandy Clegg]

I'm starting to doubt some of my own ideas from the original post now, tbh  Or maybe it's possible we have multiple interpretations. What changed my mind was reading some theories about the origins of dragons in blood magic and sacrifice. The first apple is 'cored', which means its heart is removed. I don't think we paid this enough attention before.

 

After my rereads I'll post some new thoughts on how I've begun to interpret the symbolism afresh.

[Craving Peaches]

Perhaps the three apples could also be linked to the trio of mother, maiden and crone. I this case I believe the cored and withered apple would be the Mother (loss of virginity and stretch marks?), the rotten apple would be the Crone (overripe e.g. old), and the last apple would be the Maiden (fresh, not (over)ripe yet).

[Sandy Clegg]

22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Perhaps the three apples could also be linked to the trio of mother, maiden and crone. I this case I believe the cored and withered apple would be the Mother (loss of virginity and stretch marks?), the rotten apple would be the Crone (overripe e.g. old), and the last apple would be the Maiden (fresh, not (over)ripe yet).

I can go with this as a Maiden, Mother + Crone match, sure. Good catch! I only worry that the sequence is then out of order, but maybe this is not an issue?

Haven't posted anything of length recently because I'm going back and enjoying so many old threads on symbolism. This one by @Blue-Eyed Wolf is rather good, about Arya sailing through the Titan's legs aboard the Titan's Daughter:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143458-do-these-arya-passages-foreshadow-a-sexual-assault-on-sansa-and-lfs-death/page/3/#comments 

The upshot of reading that thread for me was this: a scene heavy with symbolism, such as the above, will contain several figures. People, animals, food, ships, statues, etc. But these are mutable - they may have foreshadowing to one specific event, but they may also have implications for other events or other characters on a different continent. GRRM's symbolic scenes and figures are sphinxes - they are made up of a bit of this, and a bit of that. And this is why we fight over their interpretation so much. Trying to fix just one concrete meaning to GRRM's symbolic riddles often leaves you blind to their second, or even third or fourth meanings.

EDIT: An additional thought I forgot to mention. The mutable nature of symbolism also applies to gender. Alleras/Sarella representing both male + female means we shouldn't get too bogged down in gender when trying to decipher GRRM's symbolic scenes. A good example of this is Renly's peach, which symbolises his enjoyment of Ser Loras. But then later on we get passages in which peaches clearly allude to Margaery, e.g. in this Dany passage where she puts on a lion skin, thereby symbolising Cersei:

Quote

"Send him in," Dany commanded, sand-scrubbed skin tingling. She wrapped herself in the lionskin. The hrakkar had been much bigger than Dany, so the pelt covered everything that wanted covering.

"I've brought you a peach," Ser Jorah said, kneeling. It was so small she could almost hide it in her palm, and overripe too, but when she took the first bite, the flesh was so sweet she almost cried. She ate it slowly, savoring every mouthful, while Ser Jorah told her of the tree it had been plucked from, in a garden near the western wall.

 - ACOK, Daenerys I

Cersei underestimates Margaery (thinks her 'small') but when she attempts to foil Margaery's ambitions the plan kind of backfires on her. And of course Highgarden is far to the west of King's Landing.

And those damned apples? Yeah, they're definitely explaining how dragon-binding blood sacrifice works. 

[Evolett]

3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

GRRM's symbolic scenes and figures are sphinxes - they are made up of a bit of this, and a bit of that. And this is why we fight over their interpretation so much. Trying to fix just one concrete meaning to GRRM's symbolic riddles often leaves you blind to their second, or even third or fourth meanings.

Very well said. This is true, which is why I'm happy  to accept different interpretations coming from a variety of perspectives, especially if the different takes have a unifying theme. In the case of the apples the symbolism does appear to revolve around dragons. 

[Sandy Clegg]

11 hours ago, Evolett said:

Very well said. This is true, which is why I'm happy  to accept different interpretations coming from a variety of perspectives, especially if the different takes have a unifying theme. In the case of the apples the symbolism does appear to revolve around dragons. 

I believe we may have discovered a new ASOIAF science: sphinxology