Ukraine 19: In HARMS Way

[A Horse Named Stranger]

4 minutes ago, maarsen said:

And how well did that work for the US in South and Central America?

If they can keep control over Africa over a similar time span, that would take them a long way. 

[broken one]

25 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Anyway, the Chinese have other domestic problems. The after effects of their One Child Policy. The age structure of their society will probably prevent them from replacing the US as the global super power. Unless, the GOP really manages to start a civil war at home. But then, we'd be having a different conversation, or possibly none.

Yeah, recently I have listened to a podcast on demography of China and USA, I had no idea how poor perspectives for the PRC were.  And not bad for the US. Seems the Chinese govt knows it is the last moment to prance around.

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, maarsen said:

And how well did that work for the US in South and Central America?

The US also used a considerable amount of hard power there, too, directly and by proxy. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by James Arryn

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, broken one said:

Yeah, recently I have listened to a podcast on demography of China and USA, I had no idea how poor perspectives for the PRC were.  And not bad for the US. Seems the Chinese govt knows it is the last moment to prance around.

China is a house of cards. Their economy is in a shaky place right now and all I’ve read is that the greatest fear at the top is the collapse of the middle class. If that happens the CPC could break apart with it.

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

The US also used a considerable amount of hard power there, too, directly and by proxy. 

Those are called freedom initiatives, jerk, and methinks Canada could use some freedom too!

[Kalnestk Oblast]

Interesting public statement from one of Russia's theoretically strong allies: 

 

 

[Werthead]

Studenok and Sosnove have been retaken by Ukraine. That opens the way to a decisive link-up of the forces around Izyum and those around Lyman.

Narendra Modi has told Putin that the war in Ukraine is no longer viable, in fairly strident terms, and Putin's response was pretty pathetic. Another sign that Putin's position is weakening.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Werthead

[Maithanet]

Putin is getting put through the wringer on this international trip.  I hope it results in some change in the Russian approach, rather than just retreating further into isolation.  Putin has to know that if Russia doesn't keep relations with India and China at least lukewarm, then all of his problems will get dramatically worse. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Maithanet

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Studenok and Sosnove have been retaken by Ukraine. That opens the way to a decisive link-up of the forces around Izyum and those around Lyman.

Narendra Modi has told Putin that the war in Ukraine is no longer viable, in fairly strident terms, and Putin's response was pretty pathetic. Another sign that Putin's position is weakening.

The repetition of names around Ukraine makes it very difficult to locate some of these places.  

[Kalnestk Oblast]

29 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The repetition of names around Ukraine makes it very difficult to locate some of these places.  

Seems relevant:

 

 

[Zorral]

As much a hero as any of the the roles this Ukraine Ballet Company's principal ever danced:

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/13/1122659509/ukrainian-ballet-dancer-oleksandr-shapoval-is-killed-on-the-battlefield

 

[Maithanet]

In following this war, I am developing a pet peeve about the phrase "left/right bank of the river".  Why do people say this?  Left bank or right bank is entirely dependent on which direction you are facing.  It conveys no information!  Just say north side or east bank or whatever direction you need. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

16 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

In following this war, I am developing a pet peeve about the phrase "left/right bank of the river".  Why do people say this?  Left bank or right bank is entirely dependent on which direction you are facing.  It conveys no information!  Just say north side or east bank or whatever direction you need. 

You know a river is not following a straight line you follow the stream of the river from the source looking downstream. So always that downstream perspective. So it's not as arbitrary as you make it out to be. So the issue with that phrasing is entirely with you.

Think of it like the GPS of your car, that's telling you left or right. Here the car is a raft floating downstream. Left and Right. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by A Horse Named Stranger

[Werthead]

 

5 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

You know a river is not following a straight line you follow the stream of the river from the source. So always the downstream perspective. So it's not as arbitrary as you make it out to be. So the issue with that phrasing is entirely with you.

This requires you to know where the river is, where its source is and where it's river mouth is. Whilst just saying "north," "south," "west," "east" gives you more specific information that's immediately accessible.

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

You know a river is not following a straight line you follow the stream of the river from the source looking downstream. So always that downstream perspective. So it's not as arbitrary as you make it out to be. So the issue with that phrasing is entirely with you.

Think of it like the GPS of your car, that's telling you left or right. Here the car is a raft floating downstream. Left and Right. 

Ok, but I often don't know which direction every river is flowing.  I'm sure I can look it up, but it's not like information I have memorized. 

I maintain that if you are talking about the Russian forces trapped on the North bank of the Dnipro, there really could be no confusion about which bank I'm talking about, even though the river winds around. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Yeah, but it's really the convention. You follow the stream, facing downstream, and then left and right. 

Dniepr source is in Russia (somewhere near Moscow I think). Then it's making its way towards the black sea.

Few twists and turns. But with the Kherson area we are pretty close to the mouth. 

[Corvinus85]

43 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Ok, but I often don't know which direction every river is flowing.  I'm sure I can look it up, but it's not like information I have memorized. 

I maintain that if you are talking about the Russian forces trapped on the North bank of the Dnipro, there really could be no confusion about which bank I'm talking about, even though the river winds around. 

Towards the sea. (or lake, or another river)  

[Wade1865]

31 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Ok, but I often don't know which direction every river is flowing.  I'm sure I can look it up, but it's not like information I have memorized. 

I maintain that if you are talking about the Russian forces trapped on the North bank of the Dnipro, there really could be no confusion about which bank I'm talking about, even though the river winds around. 

Maithanet -- the problem with using your convention is that it's potentially confusing, subject to the speaker's or listener's perspective, which could be variable. For example, you could say north bank, but portions of the river flow north-south, which means there is no north bank at certain stretches. The convention uses a common perspective; i.e., the mouth of the river, and isn't variable. Hence, the convention provides certainty.

[Alarich II]

25 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Yeah, but it's really the convention. You follow the stream, facing downstream, and then left and right

It is, and that's how anyone living at or close to a river will use it; but using it to describe geographic locations makes more sense when you can assume that your audience knows which way the rive flows. Not everyone knows which direction any particular river in Ukraine flows, before it eventually turns south to go to the Black Sea

[Fez]

TBH, as someone relatively highly educated and who has even a limited amount of river knowledge (e.g., I know how to read buoys and channel markers) I had no idea that "left" and "right" had official definitions. I always thought left=west and right=east and that's it.

[Kalnestk Oblast]

This is pretty remarkable too - having an actual beachhead going forward on whatever the fuck side of the river ya'll want to say it as - and Russia not being able to remove them - is a big deal.