Osha, Rickon, and Skagos: a Shaggy Dog story?

[Aebram]

The recent thread about Skagos got me thinking about Osha and Rickon, and I realized that there are some things about their story that deserve a closer look.  We've been led to believe that they are on Skagos, but that raises some questions.

 1.  Why would they go to Skagos? 
 
If I was in Osha's place, after escaping from Winterfell with a small child in my custody, I would have headed for the closest place where we would be safe.  That would be some castle held by an ally or vassal of House Stark, or possibly one of the mountain clans.  Skagos is a notoriously harsh place, populated by harsh people who don't like outsiders.  And it's an island, so getting there probably requires passage on a ship.  Why would Osha go there, instead of heading for somewhere more hospitable and easier to reach?

I'll make one attempt to answer that question myself.  Perhaps Osha is originally from Skagos, and has family or friends there.  If so, it raises the question of how she ended up beyond the Wall.  I suppose there could be some explanation involving a ship on which she stowed away, or became the concubine of the captain.  This is pretty far-fetched.  I don't really believe it myself; I'm just throwing out a possibility. 

 2.  How would they get there?
 
Skagos is an island in the Bay of Seals.  We don't know exactly how far it is from the Westerosi mainland; but from a look at the map, it seems that this would be a very difficult and risky passage to make on a small boat or homemade raft.  Osha is strong and clever, but I think that building a suitable craft and sailing it on such a voyage is beyond her skills.

So she would need to arrange passage on a ship for herself, a small boy, and a direwolf.  The presence of the boy and wolf would raise a lot of eyebrows and inspire gossip.  It might place them at risk of being killed or captured by someone who would turn them over to the Iron Throne, or hold them for ransom.

Where would Osha even find a ship bound for Skagos?  There aren't many harbor towns along the Narrow Sea in the North.  And Skagos is not. a popular destination

 3.  Is that really where they are?

Everything we know about this subject comes from Davos's conversation with Lord Manderly and Wex, Theon's former squire (in ADWD chapter 29).  Wex is mute and mostly illiterate, so he can only communicate by sign language, drawing sketches, and answering Yes/No questions.  He claims to have followed Osha and Rickon, but obviously he didn't follow them all the way to Skagos.  At best, he might have been nearby spying on them while Osha was arranging passage.

Also, it occurs to me that we really don't know what Wex reported.  He threw a dagger at a map, and it landed on a place where there are cannibals.  But Skagos was never mentioned by name.

 Here's my own theory -- or at least a hunch.
 
 We know that Osha is clever at escape and evasion, as demonstrated by how she confounded Theon when she escaped from Winterfell.  And I'm reminded of how, when Lady Stark captured Tyrion, she told everyone, "often and loudly," that she was taking him to Winterfell, and then went to the Eyrie instead.
 
 Osha could have traveled to some coastal town where a trading ship had anchored before continuing North, stopping at a few other places before reaching Skagos.  This journey would probably include a stop at Eastwatch.  Osha never met Jon Snow; he left Winterfell to join the Nights Watch before she arrived.  But while living at Winterfell, she may have heard that Jon became Lord Commander of the Watch.

So I'm thinking:  Osha books passage on a Northbound ship, and tells everyone she wants to go to Skagos.  But she jumps ship at Eastwatch, and tells the Watch that the boy is the half-brother of their Lord Commander.  The presence of the direwolf would give her story credibility, and the Watch would give them sanctuary before sending them on to Castle Black.  

This is still pretty far-fetched, and I haven't checked the time line to see if it's even possible.  But if it's correct, Jon and Rickon may have a reunion early in the next book.  -- Assuming Jon is still alive, or at least not completely dead.

What do you think?

 

Respectfully, from your humble scribe,

-- Aebram of Underhedge

[Craving Peaches]

Could be possible. Osha is a clever woman.

I really hope it's not an actual shaggy dog story eg. they are all dead, because then what was the point of it in the first place?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Possible but I doubt it, during one of his wolf dreams in ADWD Jon when he dreamed he was Ghost felt a connection with Shaggydog, feeling that it had killed an unicorn. 

And Skagos is the only place south of the Wall where it's said that there are still unicorns.

[BalerionTheCat]

17 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Ghost felt a connection with Shaggydog, feeling that it had killed an unicorn

This is not a lot. But I think we can assume Rickon & team are on Skagos.

Then the OP's questions: WHY and HOW, are the good questions.

No way a penniless wildling could find a passage for her and a boy on a ship. Not to mention for a bad tempered fucking direwolf. Not that there should be many ships in White Harbor for Skagos.

Anyway her band of wildlings wanted to go south, as far as possible. Luwin suggested White Harbor. To seek refuge at a castle loyal to Starks. I don't know if Osha recognized the Lannister and Frey flags and the danger. But she deterred.

IMO there is no way she went to Skagos without a ship waiting for her. And someone of confidence to convince her and Rickon.

I had a theory before: Benjen, with Bloodraven hand.

Benjen has been MIA since the beginning of the first book. Without evidence he is dead. IMO he is needed. Because he is the only one, with Howland Reed, who can tell of Lyanna's story. He was her little brother. Her accomplice. IMO, if he took the Black it was not for the grandeur of the NW.

Benjen can only be alive if he had help too. And this would be by Coldhands. Between hiding a horn and helping Sam, I believe he had spare time to save Benjen. If Benjen didn't return to CB, it must be because he received instructions convincing him he was more needed to help unite the North (or whatever Rickon is for), than serving a doomed NW. BTW Bloodraven was also a NW brother and commander, who chose to serve the Old Gods, the Prince That was Promise, or whatever, rather than serving a NW who lost its purpose. Benjen could understand that too. Maybe Benjen met BR. Maybe BR had contact on Skagos. But anyway, he found a place safe of Boltons, Freys and Lannister. And arranged for Rickon.

So anyway, obviously Rickon is important.

[Hugorfonics]

22 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Possible but I doubt it, during one of his wolf dreams in ADWD Jon when he dreamed he was Ghost felt a connection with Shaggydog, feeling that it had killed an unicorn. 

Citation?

[Darth Sidious]

Osha can be forgiven for not trusting a Stark vassal. They will help Bran but could just hang her for trespassing. Skagos is remotre enough to be safe from Theon. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Citation?

"A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him."

 Jon I, ADWD

[Hugorfonics]

4 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

"A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him."

 Jon I, ADWD

That's not about a goat?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's not about a goat?

No because it has a long horn, not horns like a true goat would have, and that unicorns in ASOIAF are closer to goats in appearance than horses. And an ordinary goat would have been very unlikely to put a match against a grown up direwolf. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Unicorn

[Hugorfonics]

11 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

No because it has a long horn, not horns like a true goat would have, and that unicorns in ASOIAF are closer to goats in appearance than horses. And an ordinary goat would have been very unlikely to put a match against a grown up direwolf. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Unicorn

But it's not an ordinary goat, it's an enormous goat. I gotta say I'm more then a bit skeptical but I appreciate you digging up the sources

[Curled Finger]

That Benjen tie in is pretty sweet.  I think any Stark loyalist (think Middle Little here) Osha and Rickon may have run across during their escape would have done all they could to aid the party in their escape.  Osha doesn't necessarily have to have a connection to Skaggos as they are vassals to House Stark.  One would think Skaggos would be willing to do all they could in service to their lord, particularly in light of the evil doing in the South.   You can't assume that because they are remote that these are stupid people.  This is a trading port after all.  They are in possession of for all anyone knows, the heir to Winterfell.   Hot damn, come on down weary travelers, be at rest among us.  Only fools would turn them away.  Rickon was  4 or 5 years old.   This is no worse than sitting upon a golden egg waiting for it to hatch really.  The Skagossi are thinking exactly what Wyman Manderly is thinking.  Rickon and Shaggy have received instruction and training and tons of attention.   Little bothersome ill behaved Rickon Stark is a LORD among these folks.  He and his new army complete with a cavalry upon unicorns, will be a lot of fun to read.

[BalerionTheCat]

It also matches what Sam has read (AFFC, SAM II):

The island sat at the mouth of the Bay of Seals, massive and mountainous, a stark and forbidding land peopled by savages. They lived in caves and grim mountain fastnesses, Sam had read, and rode great shaggy unicorns to war.

They are no ordinary goats, but Jon couldn't know.

 

[Aebram]

8 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

"A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him."

 Jon I, ADWD

Hmm, yes, that does seem likely.  Good catch!

[Hugorfonics]

10 hours ago, Aebram said:

Hmm, yes, that does seem likely.  Good catch!

Does it? Ok. Everyone else thinks so, so fuck it.

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That Benjen tie in is pretty sweet.  I think any Stark loyalist (think Middle Little here) Osha and Rickon may have run across during their escape would have done all they could to aid the party in their escape.  Osha doesn't necessarily have to have a connection to Skaggos as they are vassals to House Stark.  One would think Skaggos would be willing to do all they could in service to their lord, particularly in light of the evil doing in the South.   You can't assume that because they are remote that these are stupid people.  This is a trading port after all.  They are in possession of for all anyone knows, the heir to Winterfell.   Hot damn, come on down weary travelers, be at rest among us.  Only fools would turn them away.  Rickon was  4 or 5 years old.   This is no worse than sitting upon a golden egg waiting for it to hatch really.  The Skagossi are thinking exactly what Wyman Manderly is thinking.  Rickon and Shaggy have received instruction and training and tons of attention.   Little bothersome ill behaved Rickon Stark is a LORD among these folks.  He and his new army complete with a cavalry upon unicorns, will be a lot of fun to read.

Im not sure (I mean Im not sure about any of this but since its basically fact, ill humor us. I mean, Im probably wrong) the last quote from @BalerionTheCat suggests that the unicorn are the cavalry, but if the unicorns were just warhorses in service to their lord then I dont understand why Rickon is killing them. I assume Rickon is at war with the Skagosi and their unicorns. Luwin kinda told Osha that the lords are treacherous and the entire north is at, or soon to be civil war

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Where did that little kid Rickon with the strange dreams come up with the name 'Shaggydog' anyway? I can't help but see enough similarities between Skagos and Shaggydog to wonder if Rickon didn't have a dream about the place which influenced his wolf's name. As I understand it, his dog's not even that shaggy.

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Does it? Ok. Everyone else thinks so, so fuck it.

Im not sure (I mean Im not sure about any of this but since its basically fact, ill humor us. I mean, Im probably wrong) the last quote from @BalerionTheCat suggests that the unicorn are the cavalry, but if the unicorns were just warhorses in service to their lord then I dont understand why Rickon is killing them. I assume Rickon is at war with the Skagosi and their unicorns. Luwin kinda told Osha that the lords are treacherous and the entire north is at, or soon to be civil war

Nono, Shaggy picked a fight with a unicorn is all.  I'm sure it was a simple matter of direwolf sees strange and opts to eat it rather than become friends.  As I recall, the goat may have taught naughty wolf a lesson or two.  For all we know this vision may have been a training exercise.  Rickon would be received as a lord among these people, not an enemy.  Once Osha, perhaps a little closer to their own "ways" explained the situation the leaders and people would embrace their fierce little ward and probably admire his spunk.   I'm thinking they would know how to channel his ferocity and anger--who knows, perhaps they know how to guide his warging and dreams as well?  This has to be a hell of a storm inside of a little boy.  The Wildlings accept magic as a matter of fact and part of life--it's not some far away long gone thing.  They live closer to the land and old traditions.  I think Rickon will be right up their alley and likely just what he needed.  

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Where did that little kid Rickon with the strange dreams come up with the name 'Shaggydog' anyway? I can't help but see enough similarities between Skagos and Shaggydog to wonder if Rickon didn't have a dream about the place which influenced his wolf's name. As I understand it, his dog's not even that shaggy.

Hey Bud, as I understand the names the kids gave their wolves was to reflect some part of themselves.  I don't come up with this stuff, that's just what I've read.  I mean, I would have named Grey Wind "King", but that's me.  Lady was perfect, I get Nymeria, Summer is a great name considering.  I think Ghost is about to tell why it was a great choice.  So Grey Wind and Shaggy Dog.  Well, perhaps Rickon thought himself shaggy?  I still say Robb could have done a whole lot better.  

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

if the unicorns were just warhorses in service to their lord then I dont understand why Rickon is killing them. I assume Rickon is at war with the Skagosi and their unicorns.

Maybe we should question whether the one writing that really knew Skagos. If they really fight with the goats. Or if it is just for folklore because the goats are too savage and vicious. And garrons are more useful.

But anyway, it seems a more or less savage, mountainous country. I could imagine a lot of these goats live wild in the mountains. And Shaggydog could hunt them for fun without being a nuisance for a goat herder, breeder, owner.

[LongRider]

4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But anyway, it seems a more or less savage, mountainous country. I could imagine a lot of these goats live wild in the mountains. And Shaggydog could hunt them for fun without being a nuisance for a goat herder, breeder, owner.

Wolves are predators who kill animals and make no distinctions of domestic or wild.  Shaggy seems so savage that he may kill for fun.  Even domestic dogs in the real world will kill livestock.  Jon sees Shaggy with the animal it killed when he is channeling Ghost, and Ghost may have mis-identified the animal as a goat instead of a unicorn.   nbd

[BalerionTheCat]

17 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Wolves are predators who kill animals and make no distinctions of domestic or wild.  Shaggy seems so savage that he may kill for fun.  Even domestic dogs in the real world will kill livestock.  Jon sees Shaggy with the animal it killed when he is channeling Ghost, and Ghost may have mis-identified the animal as a goat instead of a unicorn.   nbd

The direwolves have a kind of bond with their master. Even if Shaggydog is clearly more wild than his brothers. Maybe because Rickon is too young to control him.

But neither Ghost nor Grey Wind have ever hunted the animals of their human company. Not that I remember. They were always leaving to do their hunt. IMO they behave as if the animals were their pack.