Conscription:

[Varysblackfyre321]

Anyone here pro or anti conscription?

If so why?

Would you prefer your country to utilize it and if it already does, would like to expand who’d include.

I’ve instinctively sided against its use, but lately I’ve come to see it as a necessary evil.

[kiko]

32 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Anyone here pro or anti conscription?

If so why?

Would you prefer your country to utilize it and if it already does, would like to expand who’d include.

I’ve instinctively sided against its use, but lately I’ve come to see it as a necessary evil.

I did my stint and it was a year of my life wasted with no added value to my country, myself or anyone else. I was in a Gepard regiment and honestly have seen more Gepard action on Twitter recently than in my whole year there (apart from seeing them driving from the garage to maintenance and back). This year as a Co script qualified me to 

-being able to turn into the right direction with a group of other people on command after less than 3 tries

-hold several types of long metal stick the proper way and disassemble it into the very obvious parts it is made of

-point a long tube into the general direction of a old tank and make it go plonk

-drive a WW2 type of truck into and out of the mud

-stare at a round green screen and identify greenish blips as blips or clouds

Long story short. As a conscript I learned skills that are so basic and were immediately forgotten. Reason for that is the complete unwillingness to be integrated into military structure due to my self indentation as a non military person. I was definitely not alone in this. The sentiment was shared by all of my comrades (it has to be said) above a certain base level of education and transferable skill. Those were counting the days to go back to their civilian jobs or begin their higher education. The remainder usually found the career prospects attractive enough to become contract soldiers or switch to careers as NCO or even in one case as officers. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

I voted against keeping it.

Sadly my side did not succeed because many people either felt that our society needs the temporary slaves for the caretaking and health care sector the people who do the alternative civil service provide or were against the idea of the next generation not being forced to waste 6-9 months of their life.

I myself hated my time in the army and all the people I was forced to interact with there. I have never met more despicable far right, sexist and racist people again in my life. I learned nothing if any use and it certainly did nothing positive for my mental health. Most people who are career military in Austria should never have authority over anyone in my opinion. Everyone I know agrees with that.

I only did it because it was 9 months instead of 12 months of civil service back in the day. I regret that now but I'm sure I would have hated the alternative too as I'm not made for caretaking. I would have interacted with less despicable people though I suspect.

[lacuna]

I had almost the same experience as kiko, apart from the details of the busywork they had us do. For example, much time was spent coupling smaller camouflage nets together into larger pieces, only to be taken apart again a few days later. And then re-coupled a few days after that. Plus very useful skills needed to survive and win in modern warfare, such as learning to march in unison, making your bed, and make the toe area of your boots all shiny. (Not clean, well kept and waterproofed, mind. Just shiny.) Oh, and watching montages of war-porn that were evidently intended to be "totally cool", but I found sickening. Lots of FLIR images of Iraqis being killed, IIRC. Bleh.

After basic, I was on the NASAMS (Norwegian Advanced Surface-Air Missile System) launcher deployment crew. (The system that Ukraine recently got from the US, who bought it from us 20-odd years ago.) There were a billion acronyms, and I remember a fraction of them. Other details too, such as the fact that the AMRAAMs used had to be reconfigured and reprogrammed for "upside down" firing, since they usually hang from rails under a plane wing, but on the launcher, the rail is underneath, technically making it an "AMRSAM". This, apparently, could only be done by the manufacturer (Raytheon?) even though the system was conceived domestically. The standard missile was expensive to begin with, but with the reconfiguration, the cost was staggering. Needless to say, we never actually fired any. They did let us see a real one once, though. Opened the crate like it was the suitcase in Pulp Fiction. Then it was back to the hollow training "missiles".

Anyway, that's entirely useless now, since they've moved on to NASAMS II.

As for other practical military things like shooting, I think I was at the shooting range 3-4 times, and we fired 20 shots each time, so I guess you could say we were EXPERT marksmen by the end, the lot of us. And they've since replaced the service rifles as well, so... There were attempts at teaching us about maps and compasses, but pffft. Didn't get the impression that they knew either.

Oh, I did catch pneumonia from standing in diesel engine exhaust fumes for four hours though, so I now know what a 40C fever feels like. Spoiler alert, not great. Also not great, being told to walk a million, possibly a billion kilometers to the infirmary with said fever.

 

So no, can't recommend. One star.

ETA: On the national level, it is perhaps a bit hyperbolic to call general conscription a COMPLETE waste of time and money, since Norway does in fact have a military, and can fulfill its stipulated obligations to NATO. Are there better ways of doing things? Very probably, in my amateur armchairian opinion.

[Knight Of Winter]

I'm against it, and part of the reason is that my dad, along with his entire generation, went through obligatory military service in former Yugoslavia - and he considers it a year wasted in his life. While there were some positives (meeting new people he'd never get a chance to interact otherwise), lack of freedom combined with whole host of arrogant officers on a power trip made it into staunchly net negative experience. Every other recruit whose experience I've heard had similar sentiments.

I do kind of understand (though understand does not necessarily mean agree with) it in countries that are on the constant brink of being pushed into warfare (e.g. Israel). As for the rest - surely young men can find something better and smarter to do instead of being forced into military, contributing to society and their own personal growth in these few months.

[IheartIheartTesla]

A ridiculous holdover from the time when we (as a species) were constantly at war with each other. There are more than enough volunteers to fill up the armed forces of most nations that are still in the war-making business. At any rate, isnt the trend moving away from humans and more towards machinery (drones, aircraft, tanks etc.)? Would be a return to old-fashioned ways of thinking about the battlefield if we were to reanimate the draft here.

Also, I grew up in India where there are about 30-40 volunteers per empty slot in the army. Conscription would mean...an armed force of 100 million or more? Ridiculous to think about it, not just a logistic nightmare but also scary to other nations in the vicinity.

[Iskaral Pust]

I’m definitely against conscription.  We should be moving away from warfare as a mode to settle disputes, not prolonging or feeding it.  And future warfare will be increasingly reliant on highly technical specialists operating drones, etc.

Even if we want to prepare countries like Ukraine, the Baltics, Taiwan, etc, to resist aggressive neighbors who haven’t yet evolved beyond murder to make themselves feel powerful, then any citizen military training should be focused on small team sabotage & sniping tactics, not the usual marching & kit focus of basic training — which is solely to inculcate unquestioning obedience and unit cohesion.  It’s more effective to maintain (1) a strong network of professional tactical specialists who can train citizens in guerrilla resistance and sabotage after an invasion occurs and (2) capacity to either produce or import a lot of weaponry when needed.

Wars are ultimately decided now by whether the aggressor can hold the territory for the long term or whether the occupied populace resists and makes it too expensive to hold.  Citizen troops with one year of conscripted training in their past won’t be deployed fast enough to be decisive in the initial invasion — the first few weeks — but any citizens can receive basic guerrilla training over the next few months if a network of trainers and weapons is in place.

[SeanF]

There’s nothing morally wrong with conscription.  All that matters is effectiveness in war.

At present, small (relative to population size) well-trained, professional armies are usually the most effective means by which states can deliver violence.

But, it makes sense for a country in the position of Ukraine to apply conscription.

[Larry of the Lawn]

54 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There’s nothing morally wrong with conscription.  All that matters is effectiveness in war.

At present, small (relative to population size) well-trained, professional armies are usually the most effective means by which states can deliver violence.

But, it makes sense for a country in the position of Ukraine to apply conscription.

There's plenty morally wrong with conscription - it forces people to wage war regardless of how they feel about it.  It is incredibly anti-democratic and anti-human.  Out of all the things you can compel someone to do, forcing them to violence against others has to be about the worst.  

Eta: @Varysblackfyre321 why do you consider conscription a necessary evil?  What makes it necessary?

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Larry of the Lake said:

There's plenty morally wrong with conscription - it forces people to wage war regardless of how they feel about it.  It is incredibly anti-democratic and anti-human.  Out of all the things you can compel someone to do, forcing them to violence against others has to be about the worst.  

Eta: @Varysblackfyre321 why do you consider conscription a necessary evil?  What makes it necessary?

Salus populi est suprema lex.

One can make provision for non-fighting activity, such as service in medical corps, for conscientious objectors, but in the face of a threat like the Nazis or Putin’s orcs, everyone must pull their weight.

[James Arryn]

As someone pretty far left, I’m actually open to arguments in favour of one year service for everyone provided there were lots of non-military/state interest options and no hard or soft pressures to choose military. The above is not something I support, just that I could maybe be persuaded if it came with things like free education, housing, etc. 

But straight up military conscription should be something we read about in history books. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Salus populi est suprema lex.

One can make provision for non-fighting activity, such as service in medical corps, for conscientious objectors, but in the face of a threat like the Nazis or Putin’s orcs, everyone must pull their weight.

What about the Nazi or Putin conscripts?  Do you really find [no] moral or ethical dilemma with threatening a random person with violence if they don't do your bidding?  

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

12 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

As someone pretty far left, I’m actually open to arguments in favour of one year service for everyone provided there were lots of non-military/state interest options and no hard or soft pressures to choose military. The above is not something I support, just that I could maybe be persuaded if it came with things like free education, housing, etc. 

But straight up military conscription should be something we read about in history books. 

I'd argue that's not exactly conscription, depending on the consequences for failing to comply.

For @Varysblackfyre321 and @SeanF, how do you justify punishing someone for refusing conscription to support a cause they find immoral or unethical?  What's an appropriate punishment for this?

eta: I realize varys said a "necessary evil" which is very different from "nothing morally wrong with", but would love to hear more of an explanation of why this is so

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

 

But, it makes sense for a country in the position of Ukraine to apply conscription.

The problem with this is that, okay, say we agree that the Ukraine’s specific example might warrant it because of immediate existential threat…but who gets to decide when that exists? Remember many Americans have been persuaded that people like Saddam Hussein represented an existential threat to the globe. Expansionists will ALWAYS use any tool they can get their hands on to expand power. That’s who will be effectively deciding whether or not say Nicaragua is about to overrun the United States and we need to go kill a bunch of Nicaraguans asap or else. 

[James Arryn]

3 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

I'd argue that's not exactly conscription, depending on the consequences for failing to comply.

For @Varysblackfyre321 and @SeanF, how do you justify punishing someone for refusing conscription to support a cause they find immoral or unethical?  What's an appropriate punishment for this?

eta: I realize varys said a "necessary evil" which is very different from "nothing morally wrong with", but would love to hear me more of an explanation of why this is so

I agree it’s a loose application, just illustrating my ~ position. 

[Jaxom 1974]

Do we even have selective service registration in the States anymore?  I remember having to sign up to register my senior year of high school (I didn't turn 18 until after graduation). I vaguely remember getting my card.  Pretty sure the card was lost before I left for college in the fall.  Can't tell you where it would be today.

[Larry of the Lawn]

8 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Do we even have selective service registration in the States anymore?  I remember having to sign up to register my senior year of high school (I didn't turn 18 until after graduation). I vaguely remember getting my card.  Pretty sure the card was lost before I left for college in the fall.  Can't tell you where it would be today.

Yeah it's still here, although pretty sure it includes everyone in the age range now not just men.  

 

[Raja]

I left Singapore because there was legally no way for me to stay there if I didn't complete 2 years of National Service that all men that are permenent residents & citizens have to do, and this is a place where I lived from when I was 8 till I was 18.

Conscientious objection is not legally recognized, and failure to enlist can result in a 3 year imprisonment & a 10,000 dollar fine. It's...not good.

[Wade1865]

14 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Anyone here pro or anti conscription?

Varysblackfyre321 -- I'd be strongly against it. These three are just off the top of my head. First, unless you plan to send your combat power into a meat-grinder, it's an inefficient way to effectively train and deploy men. Second, unless you believe quantity is its own quality, it's a waste of national power that could be better allocated. Third, a state or nation or tribe should be defended by true believers (adventurers, nationalists, patriots), or be allowed to fade away to make way for the more willful and capable (e.g., the Taliban, and all the associated consequences a population would be willing to endure).

[SeanF]

33 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

The problem with this is that, okay, say we agree that the Ukraine’s specific example might warrant it because of immediate existential threat…but who gets to decide when that exists? Remember many Americans have been persuaded that people like Saddam Hussein represented an existential threat to the globe. Expansionists will ALWAYS use any tool they can get their hands on to expand power. That’s who will be effectively deciding whether or not say Nicaragua is about to overrun the United States and we need to go kill a bunch of Nicaraguans asap or else. 

When you have guys coming into kill/ethnically cleanse you, is a good rule of thumb for you to apply conscription.