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Conscription:


Varysblackfyre321

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On 9/11/2022 at 12:17 PM, Knight Of Winter said:

I'm against it, and part of the reason is that my dad, along with his entire generation, went through obligatory military service in former Yugoslavia - and he considers it a year wasted in his life. While there were some positives (meeting new people he'd never get a chance to interact otherwise), lack of freedom combined with whole host of arrogant officers on a power trip made it into staunchly net negative experience. Every other recruit whose experience I've heard had similar sentiments.

I do kind of understand (though understand does not necessarily mean agree with) it in countries that are on the constant brink of being pushed into warfare (e.g. Israel). As for the rest - surely young men can find something better and smarter to do instead of being forced into military, contributing to society and their own personal growth in these few months.

My dad also served in the army of former Yugoslavia, he was stationed in Maribor, Slovenia. His stories usually were around fun stuff, but once I talked to him in more detail he pretty much got to the "it was a waste of time" conclusion. Funny how the brain works - filters out crappy parts over time and keeps only the enjoyable stuff.

I am the last generation that had compulsory military service in Serbia, but since a lot of people thought there will be no way to serve after that there was enough volunteers that I was able to skip it with no consequences.

A lot of older people around here would love nothing more than seeing compulsory military service reinstated and it's always because of some stupid reason. For example, one of the more popular ones is "it teaches young men to make their bed in the morning". It's also my pet peeve, and I almost always freak out and say that making your bed is something you either have learned by the age of 19 or you just need to give up on it.

On 9/11/2022 at 10:48 PM, SeanF said:

Salus populi est suprema lex.

One can make provision for non-fighting activity, such as service in medical corps, for conscientious objectors, but in the face of a threat like the Nazis or Putin’s orcs, everyone must pull their weight.

I dislike Putin's and Russian foreign policies as much as the next guy but calling someone Orcs is not a good thing. Noble Elves vs foul Orcs narrative works for Tolkien only.

On 9/11/2022 at 11:35 PM, SeanF said:

When you have guys coming into kill/ethnically cleanse you, is a good rule of thumb for you to apply conscription.

When you have guys coming in to kill/ethnically cleanse you, it's already too late to apply conscription in a way that will make a significant difference. There's more to it than just "here's a gun, shoot at the enemy".

On 9/11/2022 at 11:38 PM, SeanF said:

The issue with the Nazis and Putin is that they had no moral justification for their wars.

You clearly have no idea how these things work, do you? I mean, it's great for you to not have been exposed to it first hand, but you should read up on things before making statements such as this.

Did USA (and other countries who were US allies) have a moral justification for invading Iraq? You do remember false accusations of Iraq having WMDs? Are US (and their allies) soldiers Orcs in those stories?

Don't forget that Nazi regime had support of big part of German people. Do you think that German people are bad people? Do you think they really wanted to kill all the Jews just for laughs? Or that maybe they have been under very specific circumstances and then exposed to years of narrative that would find justification for those actions?

The point is not trying to lay blame on anyone, it's to point out that for every war there first needs to be a justification for both internal and external use. Even Putin's Russia have given one and as ridiculous as "saving Russian people from genocide" and "denazifying Ukraine" sound to us you can rest assured that Russian people have been bombed with it enough for it to make sense to them.

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29 minutes ago, baxus said:

 

I dislike Putin's and Russian foreign policies as much as the next guy but calling someone Orcs is not a good thing. Noble Elves vs foul Orcs narrative works for Tolkien only.

When you have guys coming in to kill/ethnically cleanse you, it's already too late to apply conscription in a way that will make a significant difference. There's more to it than just "here's a gun, shoot at the enemy".

You clearly have no idea how these things work, do you? I mean, it's great for you to not have been exposed to it first hand, but you should read up on things before making statements such as this.

Did USA (and other countries who were US allies) have a moral justification for invading Iraq? You do remember false accusations of Iraq having WMDs? Are US (and their allies) soldiers Orcs in those stories?

Don't forget that Nazi regime had support of big part of German people. Do you think that German people are bad people? Do you think they really wanted to kill all the Jews just for laughs? Or that maybe they have been under very specific circumstances and then exposed to years of narrative that would find justification for those actions?

The point is not trying to lay blame on anyone, it's to point out that for every war there first needs to be a justification for both internal and external use. Even Putin's Russia have given one and as ridiculous as "saving Russian people from genocide" and "denazifying Ukraine" sound to us you can rest assured that Russian people have been bombed with it enough for it to make sense to them.

We're back to "In America they lynch negroes".

"Orcs" is the term used by the Ukrainians, and I'm happy to follow them on this.

I couldn't give a toss what justification the Nazis thought they had for murdering Jews. Those who planned it, carried it out, assisted with it were complete scum.  As is Putin.

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Just now, SeanF said:

We're back to "In America they lynch negroes".

I couldn't give a toss what justification they thought they had for murdering Jews. Those who planned it, carried it out, assisted with it were complete scum.

Not for a second am I trying to justify Nazi atrocities during WWII, especially with so many of my family being their victims, but if we're setting it as clear-cut as that, then let's use the same measuring tape for everyone.

Are those who bombed Iraq back into middle ages also complete scum? And let's not forget that pretty much the same people did the same to Afghanistan and then backed out overnight and hung all their local allies to dry?

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6 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Unironicly sometimes yes.

if you listen to what Russian military leaders say to gear up their men to go slaughter Ukrainians it usually surrounds culture war nonsense.

 

The point you keep refusing to get is that ‘culture war nonsense’ is done by all expansionist powers to rationalize their behaviour, and “they hate us for our freedom” is a clear example of the U.S. doing that. If the U.S. did not have a history of overthrowing democratically elected governments in places like the ME and C/SA, propping up murderous dictators, funding foreign invasions, coups, false flag terrorist attacks and the like, bombing or straight up invading same, the people of those regions wouldn’t give a shit about the U.S. or it’s freedoms excepting perhaps the ones who want to move there. It’s like how something like 95% of Americans think the Iranians attacked the U.S. Embassy completely out of the blue. Once again, among the many things the US does very well, forgiving itself tops the list. 
 

And the secondary issue is that you keep thinking that some neutral arbitrator will come in from above and say ‘yes, moral war. No, immoral war’. That’s not going to happen. The invasion of the Ukraine began with the bulk of each nation’s population believing the other was threatening/attacking it. Because pretty much every modern war is fought with both sides claiming to be the victim, and w/o the Great Arbiter in the sky, how will ‘moral justification’ ever be denied to anyone in time to affect anything? I remind you of the Goerring quote, or the fact that the U.S. invaded Iraq despite the entire globe, international law and even the damn treaty they said was the pretext for their invasion being against it. But the people of the US felt morally justified, so a shit ton of brown children stopped being alive. And what was the consequence to the US? Right, maybe someday there will be one. 

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You all here in the USA don't think for a nano second if it comes to all out shooting battles here in the USA that the reichlicans won't be conscripting everyone and everything in the territories they control.  Just don't.

In the meantime in terms of our volunteer military -- it has been in the news just this last week or two that we are having a very hard time finding recruits, not so much due to disinclination, but those who appear at the recruitment centers are so often physically unfit* from everything to obesity to other conditions, such as racism and bigotry, and really unfit, education-wise.  They can neither read nor write, and sure as hell can't analyze anything -- and they don't know the first thing about US history and our institutions.  They don't even know what the Constitution IS.

When a state sees the necessity to conscript, conscript it shall.

* This was a scandal, btw, for the Brits with WWI -- so many British men were so malnourished they were not only below the height requirements, but they had rickets, etc.

 

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9 hours ago, kiko said:

Giving combat training exclusively to those, the state considers criminal. What could possibly go wrong?

My thoughts as well. Mind you, the US imprisons people for the crime of being black and poor for violations white people would be forgiven for, but there are a lot of people in jail with mental health issues because the US health system sucks.

Eta: Canada of course has similar issues, I want to point out. For us it’s indigenous people overpopulating the jails.

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1 hour ago, Zorral said:

 

* This was a scandal, btw, for the Brits with WWI -- so many British men were so malnourished they were not only below the height requirements, but they had rickets, etc.

 

The US army had a similar issue with Southern conscripts and pellagra in WW2

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The one thing I can say in favour of conscription, is that we had a number of "theory" lessons on what it means to be a "citizen in uniform", for example

- what is the constitutional role of the armed forces, who decides about their deployment and some basics about parliamentary oversight mechanisms

- What is a lawful order, where do you have to obey, and more importantly what is an unlawful order where you have duty to disobey

- What are your rights and duties as a conscript

- Some basics about "the Rules of war" like Geneva convention. Interestingly I had, as part of a mining platoon, a special course about legal/illegal mining, booby-trapping/ambushing techniques etc.

We used those lessons to get some sleep because we knew that they would only call up the officer and NCO cadets who had to pass the same basic training. So not terribly effective but in theory not a bad idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Zorral said:

In the meantime in terms of our volunteer military -- it has been in the news just this last week or two that we are having a very hard time finding recruits, not so much due to disinclination, but those who appear at the recruitment centers are so often physically unfit* from everything to obesity to other conditions, such as racism and bigotry, and really unfit, education-wise.  They can neither read nor write, and sure as hell can't analyze anything -- and they don't know the first thing about US history and our institutions.  They don't even know what the Constitution IS.

So, basically not a very enlightened bunch of people who could be manipulated more or less easily in order to justify what the military needs them to do? I wonder if SeanF would call them Orcs, or is that reserved only for "the other guys".

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42 minutes ago, baxus said:

So, basically not a very enlightened bunch of people who could be manipulated more or less easily in order to justify what the military needs them to do? I wonder if SeanF would call them Orcs, or is that reserved only for "the other guys".

If you’re really upset about Russian soldiers being called “orcs”, you should take it up with Ukrainians, who coined the nickname.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

If you’re really upset about Russian soldiers being called “orcs”, you should take it up with Ukrainians, who coined the nickname.

There is a difference between using the term when you are fighting them for the survival of your country and people and using it here I feel. One is understandable I feel the other not so much as especially the conscripts are often victims too.

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On 9/14/2022 at 10:34 AM, SeanF said:

If you’re really upset about Russian soldiers being called “orcs”, you should take it up with Ukrainians, who coined the nickname.

I'm upset about anyone being called "Orcs". It's a term that dehumanises people and, as such, is neither accurate nor suitable for any kind of reasonable discussion and debate.

I must point out that you are still avoiding to answer whether US (and allies) soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan should also be considered "Orcs" since the reasons they invaded those countries are anything but moral and noble.

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On 9/14/2022 at 12:49 AM, Zorral said:

In the meantime in terms of our volunteer military -- it has been in the news just this last week or two that we are having a very hard time finding recruits, not so much due to disinclination, but those who appear at the recruitment centers are so often physically unfit* from everything to obesity to other conditions, such as racism and bigotry, and really unfit, education-wise.  They can neither read nor write, and sure as hell can't analyze anything -- and they don't know the first thing about US history and our institutions.  They don't even know what the Constitution IS.

A big part of this is the new genesis sytem which can automatically pull all health record. The US Military has had unreasonable health standard for a long long time. ADHD being a disqualifier , autism being disqualifier but before recruiters could get around this by lying and fudging which was often done but now they are going to have to acknowldege that the force they have on paper is not so in reality. It also leads to weird things where recruits who had neglectful parents who never brought them to a doctor sail on through while people who were treated require reams and reams of paperwork to have a chance at joining. I don't think it wll lead to a draft so much as the US Military updating their standards for the 21st century world.

A lot of liberals I know believe that the Amry is just chomping at the bit for a draft. But since Vietnam the US Army has been very against it. They found it corrosive to morale and also believe that modern US equiptment is to complicated ofr conscripts. Myself I tend to think it's the way conscripts are used that was the problem as Israel doesn't seem to have those problems. 

As for whether it's justified. I would say in a nation that is under existential threat like Finland or Ukraine yes. But otherwise not. 

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My country Brazil utilizes it, but it's not that hard to not be called if you don't want it- since it's a good opportunity for poor boys to have a stable, respectable career and get some education, there's never a lack of interested (particularly since the country hasn't engaged in actual warfare since 1945- at most UN peacekeeping missions and occasionally being used in public security).

Every 18 year old is supposed to go to a military post for examination and selection (for my own,to get there I had to take the subway and leave in the station of Triagem, which means triage or screening, which was surely helpful LOL)  but then they usually let you leave easily (I was actually sick when I did mine, but they didn't even ask for the doctor's affidavit confirming it). The only annoying part is that you're supposed to keep your certificate of being a reservist for life, and that can be annoying, and a bureaucratic pain in the ass if you lose it.

That said, I'm against conscription, because you're being forced to be a servant of the State and to die for it if necessary, which is an inherently immoral demand. I just don't know if it's realistic to ban it everywhere, though it would be ideal.

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On 9/13/2022 at 6:33 AM, Larry of the Lake said:

If people won't volunteer for your violent cause maybe your cause just sucks.  You don't get to just drag people along unwillingly.  

 

It’d be really nice if the only reason why people wouldn’t join up for a cause is because it’s a bad cause.

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