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UK Politics- A Taxing Transition


polishgenius

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33 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

I thought it was other people who planned the coup and got stopped partly because Mountbatten wouldn’t do it

Nope. Mountbatten was one of the ringleaders. Some of his co-conspirators wanted to put Oswald Mosley in Downing Street. But Mountbatten wanted Wilson's job for himself. The nazi-loving cunt even tried to take control of the British military.

It was the Queen who stepped in and put a stop to it. 

And, frankly, the entire affair places the official account of Mountbatten's assassination by the IRA under suspicion. Mountbatten was an enemy of the state, and quite probably dealt with accordingly.

 

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My two pennethworth...

I think the right time for debating the monarchy starts yesterday. We've done the 10 days mourning, and we (should have*) done that without bringing it up. But it needs to be discussed whilst thoughts are still on the subject.

Unlike the gun debate in the US - it's highly unlikely that there's going to be another change in the monarch this month, so we can afford that 10 days to be respectful to the individual who's died, the family and friends of the individual, and indeed, those who do like the monarchy as a whole, and allow them a little space to process the whole thing. 10 days was the allotted time for that, and now the debates should start.

For myself, I hadn't given it too much thought before this last week or so - I'm generally much more interested in reforming the houses of commons and lords and going from there.


* FTR, given that this didn't happen, and that I have commented on it - I disapprove of the timing and location of the protests; but, to butcher a paraphrase - I would happily fight for their right to protest where and when they did.

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5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah I think all the ‘not my Queen’ at the funeral of an old lady is pretty grim. A lot of people have used this moment to try to look like proper edgelords and prove how they are better than your stupid average Brit. So… slow clap to them. 

Kinda meta wouldn't you say?

Quote

There is a time where a proper conversation about the role of the monarchy comes into play, it’s probably not right now but it’s soon. 

Now is the exact time to discuss it. Why wait? 

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39 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

No

Why? The entire point of the monarchy is that they're inherently better than you, which of course is 100% a load of shit. Taking a bat to that and saying you're better than it is rather fitting.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah I think all the ‘not my Queen’ at the funeral of an old lady is pretty grim. A lot of people have used this moment to try to look like proper edgelords and prove how they are better than your stupid average Brit. So… slow clap to them. 
 

There is a time where a proper conversation about the role of the monarchy comes into play, it’s probably not right now but it’s soon. Even Charlie seems to be accepting of the fact that there needs to be a much smaller monarchy, just the immediate family rather than the extended hangers on who most people would barely recognise. So I think that will happen and has started to happen 

The time is right now, hell the time was last week.

When all the media attention is on the monarchy is the exact right time to have the debate, not when its all died down and it doesn't get as much attention.

Debating this isn't disrespectful at all to the Queen imo as you can easily have the conversation without being glad someone is dead.

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11 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

The time is right now, hell the time was last week.

When all the media attention is on the monarchy is the exact right time to have the debate, not when its all died down and it doesn't get as much attention.

Debating this isn't disrespectful at all to the Queen imo as you can easily have the conversation without being glad someone is dead.

I mean you could easily have tried to have that debate last week, it would have been the stupidest time to attempt it if your goal is to get rid of the monarchy, when people are probably feeling more pro monarchy than they had done for a very long time. Plus it would do your cause no favours to look like heartless insensitive edgelords when people are feeling a sense of grief and loss.

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I mean you could easily have tried to have that debate last week, it would have been the stupidest time to attempt it if your goal is to get rid of the monarchy, when people are probably feeling more pro monarchy than they had done for a very long time. Plus it would do your cause no favours to look like heartless insensitive edgelords when people are feeling a sense of grief and loss.

True enough. What this last week has shown me is that a large percentage of this country is fucking insane anyway so even having the debate feels futile.

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3 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

True enough. What this last week has shown me is that a large percentage of this country is fucking insane anyway so even having the debate feels futile.

Sure, it’s ok to not feel the same way as millions of other people or even understand why they feel the way they do. A lot of it has to do with the Queen herself and the affection for how she held herself and the country. That might all change with Charlie, who is definitely not the subtle character of his mum. I think a few months or years with him and the debate will be a lot more relevant.. until Will and Kate get in then you are fucked.

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Sure, it’s ok to not feel the same way as millions of other people or even understand why they feel the way they do. A lot of it has to do with the Queen herself and the affection for how she held herself and the country. That might all change with Charlie, who is definitely not the subtle character of his mum. I think a few months or years with him and the debate will be a lot more relevant.. until Will and Kate get in then you are fucked.

Nah even if you loved the Queen as a concept and are a royalist following a coffin via GPS like a deliveroo order and following non stop coverage of it is fucking weird and nothing anyone says can convince me otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Spockydog said:

Nope. Mountbatten was one of the ringleaders. Some of his co-conspirators wanted to put Oswald Mosley in Downing Street. But Mountbatten wanted Wilson's job for himself. The nazi-loving cunt even tried to take control of the British military.

It was the Queen who stepped in and put a stop to it. 

And, frankly, the entire affair places the official account of Mountbatten's assassination by the IRA under suspicion. Mountbatten was an enemy of the state, and quite probably dealt with accordingly.

 

Mountbatten was a known fuckup as his war record and his tenure as the last viceroy of India shows. Even his 'friends' may have had reason to get rid of him.

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The 'doing it during the mourning period doesn't help the cause, should wait' doesn't really hold up when (1) when are the protesters ever going to get the kind of chance for direct confrontation ever again and (2) the heavy-handed response to the protests probably did more to help the anti-Monarchy cause than anything the protesters themselves could do.

I understand the argument that they should be given private time to mourn, but my thought is always if they want to mourn privately they should become a private family.

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1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

The 'doing it during the mourning period doesn't help the cause, should wait' doesn't really hold up when (1) when are the protesters ever going to get the kind of chance for direct confrontation ever again and (2) the heavy-handed response to the protests probably did more to help the anti-Monarchy cause than anything the protesters themselves could do.

I understand the argument that they should be given private time to mourn, but my thought is always if they want to mourn privately they should become a private family.

I’m not sure those protesters got many people to support their cause, if anything they damaged it. 

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34 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Sure, it’s ok to not feel the same way as millions of other people or even understand why they feel the way they do. A lot of it has to do with the Queen herself and the affection for how she held herself and the country. That might all change with Charlie, who is definitely not the subtle character of his mum. I think a few months or years with him and the debate will be a lot more relevant.. until Will and Kate get in then you are fucked.

You said the quiet part out loud, delay the conversation until it gets to a place where it's more favorable for your side. @Which Tyler mentioned the gun debate in the US and it's 100% the same playbook. 

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33 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Didn’t I say the loud part out loud?

Saying now is not the time to discuss a valid topic and then layout how you cannot avoid said topic is saying the quiet part out loud. You have no interesting in ending the monarchy which is a super weird position to have in 2022. I’ll never understand you right of center types that love being conned by incredibly wealthy people who are going about it rather lazily.

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9 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Saying now is not the time to discuss a valid topic and then layout how you cannot avoid said topic is saying the quiet part out loud. You have no interesting in ending the monarchy which is a super weird position to have in 2022. I’ll never understand you right of center types that love being conned by incredibly wealthy people who are going about it rather lazily.

It’s weird because that’s not what I said. I said having that conversation last week was inappropriate, doing it now is probably counterproductive to any republican cause, and that if you actually wanted a serious change in the role of monarchy then the point to do it is when people have gotten a bit more used to Charles as the reality. 
 

Look, I find the wailing and queuing to see a dead body as bizarre as anyone else, but it’s hardly unusual, people get upset when celebrities die all the time, to a very strange degree. 
 

You are not a Brit so it’s going to be very hard for you to understand but for a lot of people their national identity is quite heavily associated with the royal family, we’ve had the Queen as a national figure for pretty much everyone’s lifetime, and losing that feels pretty weird. I know a lot of people here are basically the sort of liberal college educated sorts that despise any kind of national identity and think themselves above it, but that isn’t the case for a lot of people. 
 

That doesn’t mean that I don’t think the size and role of monarchy shouldn’t be examined and scaled back, and I think that is coming. It’s just that I do believe there is a function for their existence which is hard to quantify or even comprehend for those for whom it means nothing.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I’m not sure those protesters got many people to support their cause, if anything they damaged it. 

Has they protested without reaction, then I'd agree.

But the cops started arresting people for peaceful protest, which, as far as I can tell, swing things behind the protestors far, far more.

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Oddly enough, I find myself in agreement with HoI here, although for different reasons. I think the institution of the monarchy for many people has become linked with her as a person, and there’s probably a lot of people who liked her but will become less monarchist now that she’s gone. So we probably need to wait and see if Charles drives down public support for the institution before we have any real chance at abolishing it.

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