[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, zajaz said:

Plaease, GRRM, a single Blackwood being a piece of crap, and a single Bracken being a Ned-like figure would be nice. That's all I'm asking you to write.

Seriously, fuck House Blackwood.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Feminist Interpretation here: Part of the way Rhaenyra gets derided as "spoiled" is the fact that as both Princess, Heir, and a dragonrider, Rhaenyra gets to act in a way that is not demure and without having to hold her tongue. She's actually wanting to pursue a marriage partner she'd be happy with and attracted to (and she's not taking it seriously anyway because she doesn't want to get married or have a child).

Because Rhaenyra isn't being nice and is demanding equal respect to being a monarch, people are calling her rude and mean.

Because she's not a male character doing it.

Oh, I assure you, I don't like rude and demanding male characters either. I've been hating on Daemon since episode 1.

[Rockroi]

So, what started out as a relatively vacant episode where the only thing on display was wanton lust, Episode 4 turned out to be an episode that advanced this story the most.  

What I liked:

Brothers and Sisters: Maybe the most sincerely touching part of this episode was the reunification of Daemon and Viserys and how the younger enjoyed being in the embrace of his Brother's affection while the elder was please yo fawn over the wayward sibling.  Viserys being a little too drunk and a little too flippant with Daemon shows how each longs to be in the other's affections.  Same for Alicent and Rhaenyra - almost out of loneliness (more on that later) come together and try (but ... fail[?] I guess... maybe...) to mend their rift.  

But ....

Viserys Not As Father But As Stranger: This was Viserys at his most needy; his most desperate; his weakest (as in the character, not in the writing) and his grimmest.  It is clear that he is in decline- his fingers wither, his back has now broken out in sores, wounds and lesions, and he is most apt to strike back.  During the feast, the King is cruel and cavalier to his Wife and he alienates his daughter; when he feels the need for anything, he treats his Wife as a servant to fuck him (in stark contrast to Rhaenyra's ... smoking fuck-fest).  And he is treated as distant and cold by those around him: Hightower is - gravely - worried about breaking his news to the King; Daemon is beaten by his King; Rhaenyra scolded by him (leading to the best dialog of the episode

Quote

Rhaeynra: As what? A cure for your political headaches? 

Viserys I: You are my political headache!  

His Wife would rather stare into space than his eyes; servants avoid his touch.  It was not until the final moments of the episode that Viserys was able to pull together any semblance of strength, and only then to cast out his one true friend at Court.  Viserys I lacked all the wisdom that he relied in other episodes as we see the stresses of this horrid job weigh on him and ultimately sap him of his sensibleness.  And the fact that nobody wanted to be around him heightened the sense of him as isolated, alone and withering.  

The Delight: Okay so... one thing I hate about the way sex can be portrayed in some media is sex as shameful or awkward or something that may have been pleasurable at the time but was ultimately viewed as a mistake.  Not so with the Princess and Cristan Cole.  That was a lovely scene.  I like the way it started with the Queen being lonely and cut off from the world.  The men line up and they have nothing to offer her.  She knows what she wants.  And it starts with a "C" and ends with a "-ristan Cole" The way she draws him in and then takes his armor then... undresses him, slowly, making it absolutely clear that he had every opportunity to say no and his lack of denial makes it certain how much he wants her as well (and how he removes his cloak and, literally, sets it aside).  I loved how undressing was a chore, making it obvious how much each consented to the act and, ultimately, enjoyed it.  I like the idea as "sex as fun" and this seemed like it. The next day when the Princess is combing her hair she is positively aglow.  And the sex was not something to be endured (like Alicent) nor something cheap or transactional (like on the streets of silk), but something legitimately wonderful. 

The Game: At the end of the episode, it is left unclear - to me anyway -who believed what.  The King gets rid of Hightower; if he did he must believe the Hand was lying... except he does not doubt that Rhaenyra did something with Daemon.  So why did he rid himself of Hightower?  And if he did... why did he send the Princess Tansy Tea?  Or did he?  Perhaps the Maester did it of his own accord?  Did the King believe Alicent when she said that Daemon was lying? 

And Hightower's bird/eye?  That kid reported back to Daemon's wife/mistress and gave her money- ostensibly the money Otto gave him.  Okay... what's going on there?  Did Rheanyra have advance notice that she could get rid of Hightower?  Was that Daemon's idea?  Was that Daemon's plan all along?  That he would make a pass at Rhaenyra, the urchin would see it and tell Hightower?  And that Viserys would... 

Oh... and is the Maester bringing the tea because of her and Daemon ... or her and Cole?  And if so how does he know?  How does anyone know?  And wouldn't Rhaenyra want to find out?  

What I am on the Fence About:

Shut Your Fucking Face Uncle Fucker: Okay we get it... Targ's fuck a lot of relatives.  Like its up and down the family tree; the Targ Family Tree is more a straight line than a tree.  But ... did ... did we need that?  Like... she couldn't fuck a commoner or something?  Had to be her uncle?  

Casting out of the Hightower: Rhys Ifans has been a complete boss as Otto Hightower and I am sorry to see him go.  I do not recall if that was in the book but even if it was, I think the show will be less without him as King.  But I get it. 

What I did not Like:

I could nit-pick and say it took so long to get started, but ... I think it was very well paced, a lot happened, and it advanced major elements to the show.  So, nothing bad to report.  

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

Sorta random, but I'm curious why I can like anyone's posts in this thread but yours

huh, I guess that explains why most posts never get reactions. No clue about that but I gave you like anyways. 

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Feminist Interpretation here: Part of the way Rhaenyra gets derided as "spoiled" is the fact that as both Princess, Heir, and a dragonrider, Rhaenyra gets to act in a way that is not demure and without having to hold her tongue. She's actually wanting to pursue a marriage partner she'd be happy with and attracted to (and she's not taking it seriously anyway because she doesn't want to get married or have a child).

Because Rhaenyra isn't being nice and is demanding equal respect to being a monarch, people are calling her rude and mean.

Because she's not a male character doing it.

Feminist interpretation: depicting strong women as bullies is degrading to women. 

She gets to do a lot, including a chance to pick her own husband. They just ask her not to sleep around since that will mess with the legitimacy of child baring but no, queen Rhaenyra gets to do whatever she wants. 

[RumHam]

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

huh, I guess that explains why most posts never get reactions. No clue about that but I gave you like anyways. 

Yeah the little thing in the corner just isn't there. The only thing I can think is you have to post x times before it unlocks? 

[C.T. Phipps]

Quote

His Wife would rather stare into space than his eyes; servants avoid his touch.  It was not until the final moments of the episode that Viserys was able to pull together any semblance of strength, and only then to cast out his one true friend at Court.  Viserys I lacked all the wisdom that he relied in other episodes as we see the stresses of this horrid job weigh on him and ultimately sap him of his sensibleness.  And the fact that nobody wanted to be around him heightened the sense of him as isolated, alone and withering.  

The moment Otto accused Rhaenyra of what she did was when he became an enemy of the Targaryen family. The fact he refused to produce his source also made ti clear he was a traitor to the crown. Because, of course, it would have exposed the fact he was plotting against Daemon too.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

14 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Seriously, fuck House Blackwood.

The Bracken’s seem to be universally sacks of shit.  I like the Blackwoods.  

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The moment Otto accused Rhaenyra of what she did was when he became an enemy of the Targaryen family. The fact he refused to produce his source also made ti clear he was a traitor to the crown. Because, of course, it would have exposed the fact he was plotting against Daemon too.

Mysaria? It was his duty to tell the king. 

Alicent and Otto are way better than Rhaenyra and Daemon in every sense of the word. 

The difference is they are Targaryens so nothing they do can be treasonous by your standards but they are taring the realm apart by disrespecting everyone and anything that might/could be won over. If this was real life they'd both be killed by now. 

[C.T. Phipps]

10 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Mysaria? It was his duty to tell the king. 

Mysaria is Otto's source.

Quote

Alicent and Otto are way better than Rhaenyra and Daemon in every sense of the word.

After Alicent betrays Rhaenyra here, I have no sympathy for her. Off with her head.

Quote

The difference is they are Targaryens so nothing they do can be treasonous by your standards but they are taring the realm apart by disrespecting everyone and anything that might/could be won over. If this was real life they'd both be killed by now. 

In real life, Queen Elizabeth has books upon books written about the burns and shit talk she gave all of her suitors.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Was Otto supposed to be quiet about the King's brother taking the Queen's daughter and heir to a brothel and presumedly banging her right there? He also clearly knows this will get him in trouble, because Viserys will want to shoot the messenger. And how did Alicent of all people betrayed her? People are insane.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Winterfell is Burning

[C.T. Phipps]

3 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Was Otto supposed to be quiet about the King's brother taking the Queen's daughter and heir to a brothel and presumedly banging her right there? He also clearly knows this will get him in trouble, because Viserys will want to shoot the messenger. And how did Alicent of all people betrayed her? People are insane.

I mean he knows because he's having the king's brother and heir spied upon by the forme'rs mistress. Viserys, for once, sees right through him. It's also part of his grasping and disgusting attempt at power. His head should have been cut off, let alone fired.

*Viserys finally gets a clue when he rolls a 20 on Sense Motive*

Edited September 12, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[zajaz]

I'm already laughing my butt off and loving watching people fight over this (and we haven't even reached half-season). Oh, yeah, however said that being neutral or being on the fance was no fun clearly didn't experienced something like this.

[Corvinus85]

41 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Of course the ten year old Blackwood wins against the adult Bracken.

The bias is real.

And C.T. Phipps could taste the salt of his tears as he wrote these lines.

House Blackwood FTW 

[Winterfell is Burning]

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean he knows because he's having the king's brother and heir spied upon by the forme'rs mistress. Viserys, for once, sees right through him. It's also part of his grasping and disgusting attempt at power. His head should have been cut off, let alone fired.

*Viserys finally gets a clue when he rolls a 20 on Sense Motive*

He knew because he had a spy in the brothel. No one was expecting Rhaenyra to show up there. And again: was he supposed to keep quiet about the brother of the king taking his niece and heir to the Iron Throne and presumedly sleeping with her right there? 

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

He knew because he had a spy in the brothel. No one was expecting Rhaenyra to show up there. And again: was he supposed to keep quiet about the brother of the king taking his niece and heir to the Iron Throne and presumedly sleeping with her right there? 

I mean, the spy is Mysaria.

The little boy following Daemon reported to her.

And she basically said she deals in information now.

And the fact that Otto is spying on them is treason, which Viserys points out.

[lakin1013]

Help, please!!  I cannot process what I think of this ep until I am certain about something, or at least less confused.  It seemed very clear to me that Rh was more than willing to participate fully in a union with Daemon, and publicly no less.  He pulled away, and left her there.  Did he suddenly (a)get incest issues, or was this (b)some political plan on his part, or (c)does he care for her (and not wish to spoil her virtue)?  If some spoiler thing is in place here, feel free to tell me.  

 

The non-spoilers section is not open so I could not post there. 

[zajaz]

4 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Help, please!!  I cannot process what I think of this ep until I am certain about something, or at least less confused.  It seemed very clear to me that Rh was more than willing to participate fully in a union with Daemon, and publicly no less.  He pulled away, and left her there.  Did he suddenly (a)get incest issues, or was this (b)some political plan on his part, or (c)does he care for her (and not wish to spoil her virtue)?  If some spoiler thing is in place here, feel free to tell me.  

 

The non-spoilers section is not open so I could not post there. 

The writers said that he could not go further because deep down he knew that what he was doing was wrong.

[lakin1013]

Just now, zajaz said:

The writers said that he could not go further because deep down he knew that what he was doing was wrong.

Daemon has a sense of right and wrong?  I am astounded  :-) 

ty for sharing.

[zajaz]

3 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Daemon has a sense of right and wrong?  I am astounded  :-) 

ty for sharing.

No biggie.