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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


Ran
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14 minutes ago, Ran said:

That's the name that someone who worked on the show indicated he had, re: Blackwood 

People getting wound up about Rhaenyra misleading Alicent and her father are of course echoing the oppressive patriarchical power structures of Westeros that would force her to tell a lie because her hypocrite father measures what she's permitted to do by her lack of a penis., Check your privilege, yo.

I think people are more upset because Alicent has spent several episodes trying to make things right between her and Rhaenyra, and therefore they believe her when she says she wants to help her friend.

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2 minutes ago, IFR said:

It is interesting to compare the protagonists from this show and RoP. Both are flawed, impulsive characters, but I find that one works and the other does not.

For Rhaenyra her impulsivity and selfishness tends to create many problems. She chafes against the expectations of duty, and has pretty poor judgment, such as her adventure in the city with her uncle, and sleeping with Cole (coercing him to break his vows). At the same time, that same impulsivity and selfishness did defuse the confrontation in episode 2 between Otto and Daemon. It's a consistent character trait of hers that can be a boon and a voice based on circumstances, and I think that is good writing.

Galadriel too is a character who is impulsive and selfish, and shares common features with Rhaenyra. They are both extremely entitled, and allow this to largely motivated their characters. With Galadriel it feels off, because it's intended as a part of an arc to bridge her current character with the LotR character. Grafting a bildungsroman onto a character several millennia old just comes off as peculiar to me, and makes Galadriel really hard to enjoy. She seems much more foolish because of this.

Also, the narrative does not seem to endorse Rhaenyra. There are consequences for her reckless actions. Whereas the audience knows Galadriel ultimately is in the right, and is consistently rewarded for her behavior.

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For example, Galadriel's first inclination when confronted by the Numenor who rescued her is to threaten and try to bully them. The ultimate result is she is led to a key confirmation of Sauron's presence and where he is located, because he apparently careless enough to openly broadcast this to everyone.

 

 

This is a great comparison. Also they have the same hair color. 

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Just now, butterweedstrover said:

Nah, a woman sleeping around allows people to question the legitimacy of the child, men don't have to deal with that. 

And this is why Dorne doesn’t make any sense. There are no DNA tests in Westeros. No feudal society would ever permit women to be sexually liberated because it would put their heirs’ legitimacy into question. Even when the mother was the one with the claim, there would still be the issue of her husband’s family wanting his offspring to inherit, just like the Tullys expected Cat’s children to inherit, not Jon.

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10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The extended conversations in Valyrian between Rhaenyra and Daemon felt really excessive and pointless. We get it, they're Targaryens. There's no reason for them not to talk in the common tongue when no one else is around.

But that is exactly how many multilingual people communicate with each other.

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Watching Viserys plow Alicent was extremely unpleasant. She looked dead. Were we supposed to interpret that as a rape?

Maybe, depending on your beliefs. Most likely, the show is asking the audience to have discussions on the utility of sex. There are many people who believe that sex for reproduction or as a conquest and sex as a means for pleasure doesn't really cross their minds. That's why the scene cross-cuts with Rhaenyra and Daemon. 

9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I just don't get why Rhaenyra bullying her suitors is mic drop moment. 

Ignoring the political stupidity of offending noble houses for zero reason, why do viewers think it makes her so cool and likable? She is just plain mean. And spoiled. 

Audiences love sick burns. Why do you think Lady Olenna was such a popular character?

9 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Some of the stuff that didn't work in this episode is because of the weakness of the last two. That never-ending sex scene seemed meant to convince us that Rhaenyra/Cole is a big deal, but I don't care, because the show hasn't put in the work to set it up (minus that weird boar scene last week).

I see them as two people who are attracted to each other. Attraction is easier to setup than romantic emotions. I read the scene as attracted people having sex for pleasure rather than a consummation of their romance. Whether you're convinced that the characters found it pleasurable on the other hand, is a different conversation. 

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I also wish we got more development for the Valeryon family last week, so the marriage would seem like a bigger deal. 

Agreed. As a matter of fact, I wish we had seen the Velaryons go to Braavos to meet with the Sealord and his son. I would have liked to have seen how Corlys handles diplomatic matters, as far in the show, he's mostly been complaining about the Stepstones during Small Council meetings. I also would have loved to have seen how the Sealord responds to a marriage proposal to a dragon rider given how the Braavosi feel about them.

 

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And I'm sure we all appreciated the very-on-the-nose foreshadowing of Rhaenyra's death.

Which one? When she's asked about knowing her death followed by the dragon shooting out flames. Or the on where, on her way to rendezvous with Daemon, we get a close-up of Drogon's skull with the rats feasting on his teeth with flames from the candle being the only light source?

Speaking of rats, is Cheese going to make an appearance anytime soon?

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13 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Nah, a woman sleeping around allows people to question the legitimacy of the child, men don't have to deal with that. 

What child?

You are as much a homer as the stans and don't seem to realize it given your eyerolling at them. I guess every stan needs an antistan.

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think people are more upset because Alicent has spent several episodes trying to make things right between her and Rhaenyra, and therefore they believe her when she says she wants to help her friend.

Which she has done. She wasn't going to help Rhaenyra if Rhaenyra admitted she slept with Cole, she clearly feels torn. She was _relieved_ that (Rhaenyra said) nothing happened for a reason, after all 

 

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16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And this is why Dorne doesn’t make any sense. There are no DNA tests in Westeros. No feudal society would ever permit women to be sexually liberated because it would put their heirs’ legitimacy into question. Even when the mother was the one with the claim, there would still be the issue of her husband’s family wanting his offspring to inherit, just like the Tullys expected Cat’s children to inherit, not Jon.

Renaissance Italy seems to have been fairly relaxed about prominent noblewomen having extramarital affairs.  The large number of children that were fathered by prominent clergy were actually valuable marriage partners for the natural children of the nobility.

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I like it better if Rhaenyra is sleeping with Cole just because he's the first man she sees after being rejected by Daemon, as a couple posters have suggested. But if that's the case, I'm confused why it's presented as this long, drawn out, romantic sex scene with emotional music.

As for Rhaenyra and the suitors, I enjoyed the scene. It showed she has a cruel edge to her, which I think makes her a more interesting character than if she's our completely heroic protagonist (ditto with: "who cares what the smallfolk think?"). It was also probably the funniest scene on the show so far with how it escalated from 0 to stabbing in like five seconds while Rhaenyra casually walks out.

Edited by Caligula_K3
Typos
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12 minutes ago, Ran said:

What child?

You are as much a homer as the stans and don't seem to realize it given your eyerolling at them. I guess every stan needs an antistan.

 

 

I don't know what homer means. 

Regardless if a woman is sexually active it allows for people to doubt the legitimacy of any child, also why it's important for them to stay a virgin before the marriage least gossip spreads. 

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Usually they speak in their native language. As far as we know, the common tongue is both Daemon and Rhaenyra’s first language.

well, considering they put eggs in cradles and talk to their new born dragons in high Valyrian , it's not far fetched to think they learn Valyrian either before or simultaneously with common tongue . 

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9 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Except that would change some future relationships, particularly with Cregan Stark. Not that those are critical relationships.

It doesnt really change the relationships if they also age up Cregan.  an early 20's Ben blackwood  being lectured by a Cregan around Rhaenyra's age makes a lot of sense. 

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Just now, EggBlue said:

well, considering they put eggs in cradles and talk to their new born dragons in high Valyrian , it's not far fetched to think they learn Valyrian either before or simultaneously with common tongue . 

Yeah, my parents are bilingual in the sense that they know two languages at about the same level and slip in and out of each while speaking. 

Daemon and Rhaenyra don't do that, they finish talking in one language and then move to the next in segmented groupings. But to try and do both would be a logistical nightmare so I get it. 

But the subtitles are small and it's kind of obnoxious since I'm trying way to hard to focus on what they are saying and not how they are saying it. 

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22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Renaissance Italy seems to have been fairly relaxed about prominent noblewomen having extramarital affairs.  The large number of children that were fathered by prominent clergy were actually valuable marriage partners for the natural children of the nobility.

And France later on.

Of course, what Westeros has that they don’t is a highly effective abortifacient in moon tea. But that said, I also think the sexual promiscuity of Dornish women is overstated, or rather our perception is skewed because we get a close look at a very narrow group: the Sand Snakes, the cousin they grew up with, and her closest friends. Basically the young men and women in Oberyn Martell’s orbit may have a highly exaggerated libertine behavior.

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28 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

It doesnt really change the relationships if they also age up Cregan.  an early 20's Ben blackwood  being lectured by a Cregan around Rhaenyra's age makes a lot of sense. 

Wouldn't that change the relationship between Cregan and Jacaerys? Because I doubt they'll age Jace up much.

Edited by Corvinus85
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1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Wouldn't that change the relationship between Cregan and Jacaerys? Because I doubt they'll age Jace up much.

a 30 year old can see a 16 year old as a younger brother(i have a sister who is 14 years older than me actually). so again, I dont think it changes much.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

People getting wound up about Rhaenyra misleading Alicent and her father are of course echoing the oppressive patriarchical power structures of Westeros that would force her to tell a lie because her hypocrite father measures what she's permitted to do by her lack of a penis., Check your privilege, yo.

Where is the button that let's me like this six million times? 

The show is doing an excellent job of laying out character motivations. Rhaenyra has as much reason to lie as does Alicent for doing her duty by her king and by her father - it's what society expected of her. I'm glad the last scene established that Viserys was in no way fooled by his daughter. I'm reserving judgment on Ser Criston. So far, I can see clearly why Alicent does as she eventually does. Hopefully, Criston doesn't get a weak sauce motive for compounding breaking his vows before becoming a turncloak.

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I like that the marriage between Rhaenyra and Laenor is 100% political. And adding in that bit about the Sealoard of Braavos' son and the free cities jockeying for power being the reason why it needed to happen.

Rhaenyra being the one who dismisses Otto was a nice touch as well.

 

And are they setting up Criston Cole as the father of Rhaenyra's children ? 

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58 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I don't know what homer means. 

Regardless if a woman is sexually active it allows for people to doubt the legitimacy of any child, also why it's important for them to stay a virgin before the marriage least gossip spreads. 

Which is why it's a bit ridiculous that Rhaenyra spent an entire night with a kingsguard alone in the woods and no one makes any stink about that the next morning when they show up. But, you know, the plot.

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