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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


Ran
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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Alysanne took up initiative from the time she was a preteen with diplomacy, religion, study, etc. All we’ve seen Rhaenyra do so far is sulk.

Alysanne was exceptional. I do get wanting to set the bar high but come on now.

I'd be the first who'd like to see her involved in ruling  but lots of heirs aren't and ate not under the scrutiny.

Aegon the Uncrowned or Rhaegar Targaryen lived  fairly dissolute lives as heirs and it doesn't really matter.

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15 minutes ago, zajaz said:

That might be true, but there is already a precedent (in the books, that is. Perhaps no such thing happened in the show universe) of a Princess being giving way her virtue or being "wanton", and a Kingsguard member being breaking his vows. So one would guess people should know that Princess and Kingsguards are just average people (concerning sexual matters). I feel like Rhaenyra spending all night long alone with a Kingsguard should raise some eyebrows (at the least the eyebrows of wiser or more "distrustful" people, if they were to know about the whole thing).

It rose plenty of eyebrows when they returned to camp, Rhaenyra was just a little too covered in viscera for rumors to go in that particular direction but again if the very idea of them being their sole guard is unthinkable as a rule, then there is zero, absolutely zero point to having Kingsguard at all,

Edited by Denam_Pavel
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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Alysanne took up initiative from the time she was a preteen with diplomacy, religion, study, etc. All we’ve seen Rhaenyra do so far is sulk.

That certainly is a problem of their writing. Episode 2 certainly showed she is capable of more, both with the Dragonstone episode as well as the KG suggestion, but the way they are telling stories they dropped or gloss over the fact that the Realm's Delight is supposed to be a smart and precocious child/youth.

And it is the same with Alicent. I don't mind that she and Otto kind of feel out of place being merely folks who married into the royal family ... but at the same time there should also be scenes where she asserts herself in role as queen. They stress the 'baby machine' part too much.

Nobody seems to even notice that they actually don't face a succession conundrum at all. Rhaenyra doesn't want to marry. Fine. So grant her her wish. The king has a male spare in Aegon, so Rhaenyra remains the heir but becomes a virgin ruler like Elizabeth I or the Maiden of the Vale, with Aegon or his children succeeding her on her death.

Otto's whole Aegon betrothal idea could have also worked reasonably well considering it would have meant a very long proposal, freeing Rhaenyra from the pressure of marriage.

12 minutes ago, zajaz said:

That might be true, but there is already a precedent (in the books, that is. Perhaps no such thing happened in the show universe) of a princess being giving way her virtue or being "wanton", and a Kingsguard member being breaking his vows. So one would guess people should know that Princess and Kingsguards are just average people (concerning sexual matters). I feel like Rhaenyra spending all night long alone with a Kingsguard should raise some eyebrows (at the least the eyebrows of wiser or more "distrustful" people).

Obviously that kind of thing never had an effect, since princesses and queens continue to be guarded by KG and other men as their sworn shields. Just think about Aemon and Naerys.

Such things only become a problem if somebody makes them a problem. Otto makes this whole thing a problem, had he kept his mouth shut there wouldn't have been a problem. Perhaps people wondered what Rhaenyra and Criston did alone in the forest ... but if so, they didn't do it openly nor did it become a plot point. And in context one has to consider that unless Criston and Rhaenyra confirmed they spend the night together folks could have just as well assume that Criston searched for Rhaenyra a day and a night and then returned with her to camp as soon as he found her.

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Rhaenyra resolved the Dragonstone impass. She has a seat on the small council in this episode. I think we can put two and two together that she has some involvement, but they have a lot of story beats to get to this season. As I said before, I'm very open to the narrative corners they have to cut -- like not spending a great amount of time on her role advising or helping her father -- because they have to move so quickly.

 

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5 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I like it better if Rhaenyra is sleeping with Cole just because he's the first man she sees after being rejected by Daemon, as a couple posters have suggested. But if that's the case, I'm confused why it's presented as this long, drawn out, romantic sex scene with emotional music.

Milly and Ser Cole's actor have stated the scene was meant to be incredibly romantic and the power imbalance awkwardness the audience read into it was stated in the podcast to actually be Cole embarrassed about taking so long to get his armor off. Which is both hilarious and bad directing.

 

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HBO had a somewhat hot/cold relationship to HOTD apparently. They were willing to spend 200 million dollars making the season but had no idea whether or not the show would actually be able to get Game of Thrones numbers after Season 8. So, the developers apparently had to do the first season as backstory but the backstory IS the juiciest and most intriguing stuff. When it gets to the actual war, the twists and turns are a lot less interesting.

A more interesting and balanced take might have been:

Season One: Alicent and Rhaenyra's friendship, the War in the Stepstones
Season Two: Rhaenyra off with her upcoming marriage to Laenor/Daemon's own marriage
Season Three: The Greens and Blacks form into power blocks
Season Four: The Civil War

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9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I now very much hope Alicent and Criston have sex next season. After laying under an old man for 20 years, she deserves a little fun.

I've seen people argue that it would be out-ot-character for Criston Cole to envelop with Alicent; according to them, the whole Rhaenyra fall out should make him reject the possiblity of having a sex with someone else. I can kinda see that being the case, but I can also kinda see the writers having both of them get together as sex buddies due to spite (and also to have some fanservice thanks to two good looking people). I'm on the fence on this issue, actually. Let's hope the writers handle this with competence, that's all I'm going to ask.

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13 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So the actors and the director are saying completely different things.

Not just the actor and director, but the showrunners too. They said Daemon realized what he was doing with Rhaenyra was wrong, whereas the director said he lost interest because Rhaenyra was into it.

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I again feel that Sapochnik's take on what the writing team has been doing, especially for episodes he did not direct, seem ... off. Like he filmed the BTS stuff long after these episodes were done and in his head there's a story that's developed that isn't on the page or the screen. When you hear Condal, he says that Cole has "also carried a torch" for Rhaenyra... which seems to imply that in his mind Rhaenyra reciprocates that, that it's not that Cole just happened to be around, but because it was Cole who was around that she made her move; it's not like she was going to put the moves on Harrold Westerling, right? We see her interest in him in the first two episodes (including her personally putting the white cloak on him during his investiture in a cut scene), we see they get along in the third, and so here we are. It's "fast", but then again he's been a Kingsguard knight for 4 years at this point.

I really get the sense that Sapochnik may have been just very focused on the look and production side of things, and that Ryan and the writers were left pretty much alone, so his departing now makes even more sense if he was fairly disengaged from the story side.

I don't get this whole "she coerced" it argument, BTW. She _tempted_ him certainly, and did her best to seduce him, but that scene of them sitting down side by the side and undressing together -- that actually is kind of sweet and innocent, you can feel her anticipation in it, so as far as that goes the director did the job she set out to do, IMO.

Edited by Ran
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3 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I've seen people argue that it would be out-ot-character for Criston Cole to envelop with Alicent; according to them, the whole Rhaenyra fall out should make him reject the possiblity of having a sex with someone else. I can kinda see that being the case, but I can also kinda see the writers having both of them get together as sex buddies due to spite (and also to have some fanservice thanks to two good looking people). I'm on the fence on this issue, actually. Let's hope the writers handle this with competence, that's all I'm going to ask.

I mean, Ser Criston breaks every vow he makes by the end and is the worst of the Kingsguard.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

When you hear Condal, he says that Cole has "also carried a torch" for Rhaenyra... which seems to imply that in his mind Rhaenyra reciprocates that.

Again, I think it's made very clear in the earlier episodes that Rhaenyra is into Criston, so I don't know where all the "he was the only guy around" stuff comes from.

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38 minutes ago, Ran said:

I again feel that Sapochnik's take on what the writing team has been doing, especially for episodes he did not direct, seem ... off. Like he filmed the BTS stuff long after these episodes were done and in his head there's a story that's developed that isn't on the page or the screen. When you hear Condal, he says that Cole has "also carried a torch" for Rhaenyra... which seems to imply that in his mind Rhaenyra reciprocates that, that it's not that Cole just happened to be around, but because it was Cole who was around that she made her move; it's not like she was going to put the moves on Harrold Westerling, right? We see her interest in him in the first two episodes (including her personally putting the white cloak on him during his investiture in a cut scene), we see they get along in the third, and so here we are. It's "fast", but then again he's been a Kingsguard knight for 4 years at this point.

I really get the sense that Sapochnik may have been just very focused on the look and production side of things, and that Ryan and the writers were left pretty much alone, so his departing now makes even more sense if he was fairly disengaged from the story side.

I don't get this whole "she coerced" it argument, BTW. She _tempted_ him certainly, and did her best to seduce him, but that scene of them sitting down side by the side and undressing together -- that actually is kind of sweet and innocent, you can feel her anticipation in it, so as far as that goes the director did the job she set out to do, IMO.

Condal said “It’s very much against his oath, he swore an oath of chastity to put on the white cloak, but he’s also carried a torch for her.” So I took the “also” to indicate his conflicting interests: he made a vow, but he’s also wants Rhaenyra. I think this makes sense considering Condal said this right after Miguel said “she comes home and Criston Cole seems to be the nearest person available.” 

Personally, I don’t think this was something cynical and calculating on Rhaenyra’s part. I think she’s just young and hot-blooded and, like Arianne, doesn’t consider how this will effect the other person involved in the long term.

Here’s the video for anyone curious. The part I referenced starts at about 2:55.

 

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