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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


Ran
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I think the controversy over Rhaenyra seducing Cole is just a product of our current cultural climate, which is something that’s been discussed on here quite a bit regarding the books. Hopefully we eventually get to the place where we have a more enlightened view of power dynamics in the real world while also accepting that depiction is not endorsement and that people in the past weren’t necessarily monsters because of what we believe now. But unfortunately, we just aren’t there yet.

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the controversy over Rhaenyra seducing Cole is just a product of our current cultural climate, which is something that’s been discussed on here quite a bit regarding the books. Hopefully we eventually get to the place where we have a more enlightened view of power dynamics in the real world while also accepting that depiction is not endorsement and that people in the past weren’t necessarily monsters because of what we believe now. But unfortunately, we just aren’t there yet.

Eh, people ok the internet are going to rage at something.

Cole is just proto Arys Oakheart here. Wants to, knows it's wrong, does it anyway and feels conflicted about it.

He's case is just of him choosing which head should he follow to listen, nothing else so far.

 

 

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Condal and Sapochnik aren't coordinating what they're saying from a script. They're each talking off the cuff, interviewed by HBO's BTS/EPK team. The editors (who are HBO's hired guns, not HotD's editorial team) put the material together, so I don't think the juxtaposition of what Sapochnik says and what Condal says are actually connected. That said, yes, that's a possible reading of what he means there, but I feel like Condal was probably saying other things about Rhaenyra and Cole before her approach to him and so that's the context of which he's probably speaking.

I think it's clear that both have "carried a torch" for one another in Condal's parlance, in the sense that they each find the other attractive and simpatico. This idea from what Sapochnik seems to be saying that any warm body would have done for Rhaenyra at that moment is, IMO, obviously wrong. If she just wanted one, there were plenty there in that brothel, right? And I still don't think she'd have jumped Harrold Westerling's bones.

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58 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't get this whole "she coerced" it argument, BTW. She _tempted_ him certainly, and did her best to seduce him, but that scene of them sitting down side by the side and undressing together -- that actually is kind of sweet and innocent, you can feel her anticipation in it, so as far as that goes the director did the job she set out to do, IMO.

I think it was a pretty nuanced and complex interaction (whether this was produced intentionally by the writers and director or accidentally).

Cole clearly desired Rhaenyra. He was also more worldly and experienced than she.

However, his vows were also meaningful to him. He acted with great hesitation numerous times during this sequence. More importantly, this wasn't a typical situation of your boss making sexual advances towards you. If Cole rejected Rhaenyra, it would be entirely possible that she would slander him to her father, jeopardizing his life (and it wouldn't be out of character for her either). This creates a highly coercive power dynamic, regardless of whether a part of Cole wanted to have sex with Rhaenyra.

A lot of things were going on in this sequence. I think that's what makes it excellent.

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26 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Again, I think it's made very clear in the earlier episodes that Rhaenyra is into Criston, so I don't know where all the "he was the only guy around" stuff comes from.

She certainly likes Criston Cole and is attracted to him ... but she isn't in love with him nor does she want to marry him or live with him. But the deciding factor there is that she is pretty much horny as hell and he happens to be there. If Harwin were there - quite nice of him to kind of stumble through the episode - she might have taken him, too, or any other man attractive enough.

That's how sexual desire works in your teens.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I now very much hope Alicent and Criston have sex next season. After laying under an old man for 20 years, she deserves a little fun.

Well, one hopes she at least gets out of the, ah, little sessions she supposedly is going to have with

Spoiler

Larys Strong

But, of course, the Dowager Queen Alicent Hightower might also end up developing her own sexuality. Taking a lover still would be fornication and stuff, but as the High Septon puts it, the wantonness of widows is well know, so, yeah, they could do something in that department.

Or make the Criston-Alicent thing just the chaste and courtly love idea, as a big 'fuck you!' to the whore queen on Dragonstone.

Regarding Daemon, they apparently filmed it as if he had erection problems yet again, possibly to a higher degree than back when he was full of anxiety that Viserys no longer loved him.

That would imply that he was trying to be the bad boy yet again, like he did on Dragonstone, but wasn't able to go through with it.

This also helps explain why he told Viserys what he did - it is more manly to claim you have fucked a woman than to admit that you were physically and/or mentally incapable of doing so. Daemon's erectile dysfunction seems to be entirely psychological, and one imagines that the root of this thing with Rhaenyra was that he knew deep down he didn't want to have sex with her while they were not yet married.

Once the story was out he had to protect his manly rogue prince image. He would never admit to Viserys (or anyone) that he couldn't perform.

Don't really think a female director moved away from the male gaze there. There were still lots and lots of naked female asses to be seen. The Alicent scene did a good job of depicting bad sex from a female perspective ... but they failed to actually sexualize male bodies to a point, which would be part of what would like to see if we watch things through the eyes of a horny teenager. Criston Cole should have been all attractive body parts once his armor was off ... just as Daemon should have been pretty much naked in the brothel so Rhaenyra (and the audience) could feast her eyes on him.

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3 minutes ago, IFR said:

I think it was a pretty nuanced and complex interaction (whether this was produced intentionally by the writers and director or accidentally).

Cole clearly desired Rhaenyra. He was also more worldly and experienced than she.

However, his vows were also meaningful to him. He acted with great hesitation numerous times during this sequence. More importantly, this wasn't a typical situation of your boss making sexual advances towards you. If Cole rejected Rhaenyra, it would be entirely possible that she would slander him to her father, jeopardizing his life (and it wouldn't be out of character for her either). This creates a highly coercive power dynamic, regardless of whether a part of Cole wanted to have sex with Rhaenyra.

A lot of things were going on in this sequence. I think that's what makes it excellent.

I think there’s probably also a bit of a generational divide on how viewers interpret that scene.

I think the bigger problem will be what happens next, if Rhaenyra isn’t as into Cole as he is into her, and if he feels used.

That said, the sex scene was very well done, much more so than anything we saw on GOT.

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

Alysanne was exceptional. I do get wanting to set the bar high but come on now.

I'd be the first who'd like to see her involved in ruling  but lots of heirs aren't and ate not under the scrutiny.

Aegon the Uncrowned or Rhaegar Targaryen lived  fairly dissolute lives as heirs and it doesn't really matter.

Yes, Alysanne was exceptional. But if Rhaenyra is really that set on being the First Queen of Westeros, she needs to start taking on more responsibility. She started to in E2 and has been backsliding since.

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6 minutes ago, Ran said:

If she just wanted one, there were plenty there in that brothel, right? And I still don't think she'd have jumped Harrold Westerling's bones.

Don't think that's much of an argument here, since she is clearly confused in the brothel and leaves trying to find Daemon, and only then, eventually, finds her way back to the castle.

They could have played up the horny side of things better by having her actually masturbate once she is back inside, and Cole kind of catching her there.

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4 hours ago, zajaz said:

Thank you for the suggestion (for real), but that sub is full of Black, Daemon, and Rhaenyra stans on such level that it kinda reminds me of a cult.:ph34r:

No different from the main novels really. Almost everyone sided with the Starks for some reason. Few people had sympathy for the people plotting to steal the throne. It's weird!

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I just don't get the basic idea of what's Daemon been doing. 
Before this, I probably would've voted for Eustache's version of the events, but the show definitely makes you doubt that. What played out on the screen makes some sense, but not Daemon admitting to what he didn't ultimately do. It doesn't seem like something he just tought of while being dragged, it seems intertwined to what happened.

Mushroom's version is most probably made up, there may or may not have been tension between Rhaenyra and Cole, but I ultimately think Daemon got what he wanted from Rhaenyra, it's just that he miscalculated on Viserys' behaviour. And Cole may have had to face rejection either because of Rhaenyra's lack of interest in him or because of the mess grown around her at the time.

Either way, this was a critical point, and I guess they handled it properly.

I'm also amazed by how much characters can be whitewashed and not feel like they aren't doing justice to them. What bothers me a bit is how Viserys is portrayed like an ailing manchild, like all the time. I don't think we needed this much of him being weak and pathetic even, but his stronger moments feel the best in the show so far to me.

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6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

No different from the main novels really. Almost everyone sided with the Starks for some reason. Few people had sympathy for the people plotting to steal the throne. It's weird!

It's almost as if there were good and bad guys in both stories.:cheers:

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1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I just don't get the basic idea of what's Daemon been doing. 
Before this, I probably would've voted for Eustache's version of the events, but the show definitely makes you doubt that. What played out on the screen makes some sense, but not Daemon admitting to what he didn't ultimately do. It doesn't seem like something he just tought of while being dragged, it seems intertwined to what happened.

Mushroom's version is most probably made up, there may or may not have been tension between Rhaenyra and Cole, but I ultimately think Daemon got what he wanted from Rhaenyra, it's just that he miscalculated on Viserys' behaviour. And Cole may have had to face rejection either because of Rhaenyra's lack of interest in him or because of the mess grown around her at the time.

Either way, this was a critical point, and I guess they handled it properly.

I'm also amazed by how much characters can be whitewashed and not feel like they aren't doing justice to them. What bothers me a bit is how Viserys is portrayed like an ailing manchild, like all the time. I don't think we needed this much of him being weak and pathetic even, but his stronger moments feel the best in the show so far to me.

Daemon did get exiled from court again, only Mushroom's version gave an explanation why. Mushroom sure did some embellishing but there's clearly some kernel of truth in his version alone. As opposed to like Sara Snow, who we have no reason to believe ever existed outside Mushroom's stories.

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14 minutes ago, IFR said:

If Cole rejected Rhaenyra, it would be entirely possible that she would slander him to her father, jeopardizing his life (and it wouldn't be out of character for her either).

I really think that's reading waaaaay too much into things. He cares about his vows and honor, but where would he get the idea that he's feeling like he has to do this or else? Like, what has Rhaenyra done on the show that suggests she's that sort of vindictive that she'd lie about him? It doesn't seem in keeping with their relationship or her character, so to me it doesn't seem natural.

He's definittely troubled by his making the choice given his sense of honor and his vows. No doubt about it. But I don't think the power dynamics were at all in his mind.

 

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By the way, here's the podcast form the offical Youtube channel for this episode, in which Fabien talks for around half an hour abut his character and this episode in particular. Some interesting things said in here: 

Official Podcast Ep. 4 “King of the Narrow Sea” with Fabien Frankel | House of the Dragon (HBO)

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1 minute ago, Denam_Pavel said:

Daemon did get exiled from court again, only Mushroom's version gave an explanation why. Mushroom sure did some embellishing but there's clearly some kernel of truth in his version alone. As opposed to like Sara Snow, who we have no reason to believe ever existed outside Mushroom's stories.

Isn't taking Rhaenyra's virginity as it is a good enough reason to exile someone? Mushroom says Daemon didn't, just prepared her for the seduction of Ser Criston. Septon Eustache says they had sex, which appears to be much more logical and not unnecesarily juicy and outrageous.

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8 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Isn't taking Rhaenyra's virginity as it is a good enough reason to exile someone? Mushroom says Daemon didn't, just prepared her for the seduction of Ser Criston. Septon Eustache says they had sex, which appears to be much more logical and not unnecesarily juicy and outrageous.

Sorry I was looking at the wrong place, I thought Septon Eustache's account didn't involve Daemon, but with him Daemon and Criston were just two disconnected incidents.

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28 minutes ago, Ran said:

I really think that's reading waaaaay too much into things. He cares about his vows and honor, but where would he get the idea that he's feeling like he has to do this or else? Like, what has Rhaenyra done on the show that suggests she's that sort of vindictive that she'd lie about him? It doesn't seem in keeping with their relationship or her character, so to me it doesn't seem natural.

He's definittely troubled by his making the choice given his sense of honor and his vows. No doubt about it. But I don't think the power dynamics were at all in his mind.

 

I think it would be utterly foolish of him not to envision the consequences of saying no, especially since a part of him clearly does want to say no.

But nothing is spelled out and it's left to the audience to interpret what is going on with the characters at the moment.

Regardless of whether Cole does consider the power dynamic, it is an element that exists in this scene.

Rhaenyra seems often selfish and willing to disregard others for the sake of her own interests. She is often cruel and vindictive (just in this episode, she seemed completely disinterested that someone was stabbed to death in front of her, and she told Daemon that the desires of the commoners were of no consequence). She also behaves rashly, and is willing to lie for her own interests. I find it perfectly believable based on how she has been portrayed so far that she would have a surge or resentment if rejected by Cole and proceed to some drastic action. Cole would be a fool not to fear the same.

Edited by IFR
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11 minutes ago, IFR said:

Rhaenyra seems often selfish and willing to disregard others for the sake of her own interests. She is often cruel and vindictive (just in this episode, she seemed completely disinterested that someone was stabbed to death in front of her, and she told Daemon that the desires of the commoners were of no consequence). She also behaves rashly, and is willing to lie for her own interests. I find it perfectly believable based on how she has been portrayed so far that she would have a surge or resentment if rejected by Cole and proceed to some drastic action. Cole would be a fool not to fear the same.

Part of what I do like about this series is the fact they are not making mistakes: the cheapness of life and casualness of inter-noble murder is something they are absolutely saying is a part of life in Westeros.

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