[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really, since lords are not kings (and Tyrion never was Tywin's heir, anyway), and we don't know whether Robert would have believed the story about Cersei's children (the Realm doesn't believe Stannis' little tale), nor how he would have ruled on his succession had he believed it (he could have kept Joffrey as heir, anyway, he could have named Stannis or Renly or one of his bastards instead).

In his last will Robert reaffirms Joffrey as his heir. It is Ned who forges it and who goes against it, trying to crown a man Robert hadn't named his heir. And may not have named his heir because he didn't want him to rule.

Ned had some reason to believe Robert may have changed the succession had he known about the twincest. But King Viserys I made it crystal clear that he wouldn't change the succession, so what happens there is treason.

We can be reasonably sure that this is not how men in this world think of girls/young men, never mind if they are princesses or not. They are not seen as people with power, not even Queen Alicent is. If there were examples of royal women destroying Kingsguard in this manner such a thing might figure into Criston's decision-making process. But there is nothing of that sort there. If you have no reason to think the other party has power over you in this regard you that kind of thing doesn't figure into it.

Otto has a clear motive to destroy Rhaenyra. Criston Cole does not. Rhaenyra made him a KG, so him reporting on her would be seen as more likely true than false. Folks may even be inclined to believe him even if he told a lie.

This is kind of an interesting condundrum there for the writers since Mr. Crown really acts like a moron there. A good plotter would have used another piece to inform Viserys about what had transpired. And there is an obvious piece right there - Queen Alicent, the one person Viserys could not, you know, fire.

Not to mention the possibility of arranging a larger scandal by leaking the whole thing to the public in a convincing fashion which might eventually force the king to do something about it.

Rhaenyra clearly got turned on by watching people having sex. She was not reading a book. She got horny and she wanted sex. The director should present the point of view of a horny woman desiring sex, not explore how women like to get horny by themselves.

If it turns out that Criston was just a meaningless fling for her then the whole thing is definitely too focused on his pleasure, and treating the whole thing too tenderly.

Although I guess Rhaenyra might actually have considerable feelings for her in light of the way she greeted him when he showed up the next morning.

By the way - kind of ridiculous how Rhaenyra actually dresses herself. If they have chamber maids in Downton Abbey why does Rhaenyra Targaryen have to dress herself? What comes next? Is Alicent going to cook a meal for Viserys? It was also bordering on the inappropriate to have her clean him. There are servants for that kind of thing, too, servants much more qualified in that kind of work than Viserys' young wife.

They should have little to no privacy there, being surrounded by servants 24/7. It is good to see how large the court is and how many people are standing around often enough, but there are also letdowns there.

I guess it will mostly revolve around him breaking his vows and coming up with the idea that this can only be mended if they marry. Because he cannot look at himself in the mirror and admit to himself that he would break his vows so easily if it wasn't 'the love his life' or 'leading to marriage'.

You can drop that whole 'little girl' thing there. George is so ridiculously incompetent with numbers and children that you cannot take much of that seriously. Joffrey Velaryon is three when he challenges Aemond over a dragon. That is ... just beyond anything that's even remotely realistic. And nothing in the world forced him to place this event - or the death of Laena and Laenor Velaryon in the year 120 AC.

Thus Criston Cole is likely not supposed to be a semi-pedophile who started to lust after Rhaenyra the moment he set eyes on 'the Realm's Delight'. And the same goes for Daemon. And nobody groomed anyone there, either. If Daemon/Criston ended up getting the hots for Rhaenyra it would have been because she developed into the most beautiful woman at court.

The book guy still seems to be more sinister, especially since the author never bothered fleshing out whatever good things he may have done. Like Daemon, he comes across as mostly an ass, starting a war, arranging assassinations and pushing for further escalation.

Considering what he did it reads unintentionally funny when he tries to negotiate with the Riverlords and Winter Wolves. As if anyone on Rhaenyra's side would show mercy to this guy after what he pulled.

It is big difference between the US and most European countries that silliness like companies regulating the private lives of their employees is actually constitutionally forbidden. Your love life and your sexual organs are your own, meaning you can fuck whoever you work with if you are an adult.

If such relationships do interfere with your work or that of your co-workers measures can be taken. But nobody can force you to end a sexual or romantic relationship, much less, of course, a marriage.

Yes, Rhaenyra was turned on watching people have sex. But this is a TV show, and viewers know they’re watching a TV show, and they’re looking for a better presentation than just two bodies pushing against each other. Take the sex scene between Rhaenyra and Criston, for instance—she’s never had sex and he’s been celibate for years. In real life, it would have been a lot more awkward and imperfect, but that’s not what viewers want to see. Which aspects a director chooses to focus on says a lot, and the focus on their faces, hands, hair, etc. is more typical of a female director than a male one.

[dsjj251]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if one would agree with that - Rhaenyra Targaryen doesn't want to cuddle or 'emotional connect' in that scene, she just wants to FUCK! She is already horny, there is no need to get in the mood or anything.

 

LOL. emotional/ sensual touching is part of sex. I think some of you genuinely dont understand that and are indeed proving some points women have about men. 
 

[slant]

Sigh, it was the first and only non-awkward sex scene in the series so far, there are two discussions here, one is what the audience wants, this may be split along the bouncing body parts and sensual touching lines, but what Rhaenyra in the story wants to do is just carelessly, thoughtlessly and impulsively use Cole for her own gratification. She knows it is a mistake, and does feel guilt over it. 

[Theda Baratheon]

On 9/12/2022 at 3:53 AM, SilverGhost said:

Adult Bracken was drunk and overconfident. That is a terrible combination. 

Weird scene all around - Fire and Blood made it seem like the Princess wowed Knights and Lords while on her tours but here she comes off as an annoying brat. 

Like the small cameo from the Frey in line -- the second son of the House who outright asked for her hand in Fire and Blood and got laughed at. 

I love that though. 
 

It’s showing the difference between fantasy and myth and reality. Propaganda and the truth. 
 

it makes sense for something like F&B to be steeped in the mythical propaganda of a lot of these characters when I’m reality they’re all messy human beings. 

[Theda Baratheon]

On 9/12/2022 at 3:54 AM, Caligula_K3 said:

I find Otto Hightower's actor to be incredibly lifeless. Just the same stoic expression and soft tone of voice,no matter the dialogue. I'm not saying he needs to ham it up a la Aiden Gillen, but it's too bad, because he could be at least a fun villain. The scene where he loses the handship at least demands something more.

 

That’s Rhys Ifans!!! I would say it’s likely more of an issue of directing than acting because he’s bloody fantastic and EXCELS at ‘jamming it up’. I think the soft spoken stoic works well because when he finally loses it and shows some of the cracks in his demeanour then it will pack a better punch. But either way I HUGHLY doubt it’s down to a fault with Rhys Ifans - who is FANTASTIC. 

[Ran]

14 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Propaganda and the truth. 

I don't think if people really noticed last episode, but in front of the fire with Alicent Viserys outright says that he called his daughter the Realm's Delight to "protect" her from Daemon's ambition. To me, he basically meant that he deliberately set singers and the like to spread the word about how charming and beautiful she was to try and win her the love and support of the realm.

So, yeah, propaganda is a thing on the show, and I think they've done a good job with that aspect of things.

[C.T. Phipps]

34 minutes ago, Ran said:

I don't think if people really noticed last episode, but in front of the fire with Alicent Viserys outright says that he called his daughter the Realm's Delight to "protect" her from Daemon's ambition. To me, he basically meant that he deliberately set singers and the like to spread the word about how charming and beautiful she was to try and win her the love and support of the realm.

So, yeah, propaganda is a thing on the show, and I think they've done a good job with that aspect of things.

He called her that the previous episode too.

[C.T. Phipps]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more I reflect on this episode, the less I like it. The show is feeling increasingly nihilistic, the characters less likable. Does anyone else get a similar vibe?

Weird, I think the characters are at some of their most likable.

Mind you, I'm on Team Rhaenyra and fully expect Alicent to become utterly irredeemably evil.

[Ran]

Yeah, I found Rhaenyra and Alicent both likable here. Rhaenyra's little effort to get the crowd to boo was funny, her delight at being called a boy, and so on. Alicent's struggle with her various loyalties was also well played and you can totally understand her dilemma. 

Viserys, OTOH, did come off as worse, particular in the garden party scene where he's clearly a bit tipsy and makes fun of his wife and randomly farting as he laughs, then being rude to Rhaenyra when she tries to salvage the situation. He's clearly a sloppy drunk who let his joy at his brother's return take all of his focus and courtesy.

Re: Alyssa, I think people are reading too much into a throw away line. "You were always the warrior" probably means Daemon was a ferocious little toddler, maybe grabbing at swords and knives Rickon-style, and Alyssa laughed and cooed over it and called him her "little warrior" or whatever.

[slant]

^Yes, making fun of his wife seemed unnecessary and inconsistent with how his character is shown otherwise. 

[Mithras]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more I reflect on this episode, the less I like it. The show is feeling increasingly nihilistic, the characters less likable. Does anyone else get a similar vibe?

Nihilistic? Targaryens are on a holy mission to save the world 

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, slant said:

^Yes, making fun of his wife seemed unnecessary and inconsistent with how his character is shown otherwise. 

I'm not sure I'd call it inconsistent, given his treatment of Lord Jason and Lyonel Strong, and his shrugging off his brother's actions in Flea Bottom. Like I said, a sloppy  drunk.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more I reflect on this episode, the less I like it. The show is feeling increasingly nihilistic, the characters less likable. Does anyone else get a similar vibe?

I mean, the Dance arc is nihilistic, and so are the characters in it. That has been known long before HOTD was a thing.

[IFR]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Plenty of employers and employees have married/ had sex with each other, including myself and my wife.  Again, it’s daft to call such relationships exploitative.  They may be, but there’s no reason to believe that most are.

To make this situation comparable, you would have had to pursue her as an employer when she repeatedly said no. And had the power to have her executed. 

 

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Beria was a monster who raped and murdered women and girls of all ages, threatened their loved ones, and led an apparatus of terror.  Rhaenyra is no such person.

They are not the same in personality, and I never indicated they were. They are comparable in the consequences of refusal. Beria had people who rejected his advances arrested or put to death. Rhaenyra has the same power.

At any rate, I think this topic of power and consent has become old and boring, and there is a clear and perhaps unbridgeable difference in opinion here. It may indeed be as Bard of Banefort suggests - a generational thing.

This discussion is not an important matter of determining social policy, but a random conversation about a TV show, so I think it's fine to let it drop.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We can be reasonably sure that this is not how men in this world think of girls/young men, never mind if they are princesses or not. They are not seen as people with power, not even Queen Alicent is.

I think this particular quote strays onto a different topic, so I will briefly address it.

Martin doesn't focus purely on sexism, but he also explores classism and other forms of social stratification. Women are often viewed as property in his works, but class is still more important than gender. Rhaenyra could have any commoner flogged and executed at a whim (though if she did this often it would cause discontent). She has plenty of power.

Edited September 13, 2022 by IFR

[DMC]

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point was more that I don't think Daemon planned that somebody would feed this information to Viserys so he could make a play for Rhaenyra's hand.

I tend to agree but the whole business with Mysaria is what's got me confused.  Seems weird to insert her into that whole thing.  Maybe we'll get some explanation there - and I do think it's possible Daemon wanted Mysaria to leak it so Viserys found out - but I wouldn't be surprised if it's never really addressed again and they just wanted to give the character some screen time (Mysaria, I mean).

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In general, when it doesn't look I'm still responding I most likely no longer am ;-).

[butterweedstrover]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Yeah, I found Rhaenyra and Alicent both likable here. Rhaenyra's little effort to get the crowd to boo was funny, her delight at being called a boy, and so on. Alicent's struggle with her various loyalties was also well played and you can totally understand her dilemma. 

Don't you think you're using a selective memory here Ran? 

Alicent is obviously likeable, she does nothing wrong and is loyal, kind, and dignified infront of everyone she meets, she doesn't belittle people or crack jokes. 

In the scene you reference as to Rhaenyra's likability it’s contextualized by her later statement that the peasants don't matter. She treats them with delight because she doesn't acknowledge their existence, they are subhumans who are thought of as curiosities, like a litter of puppies jumping up and down barking. 

When she speaks to people at her level, she is always rude and condescending (unless they service her needs like Criston Cole). There are a lot of mental gymnastics you have to perform to depict Rhaenyra as likeable or funny. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

Plenty of employers and employees have married/ had sex with each other, including myself and my wife.

But when one of the people involved is in line to be an absolute ruler, it creates a gigantic power imbalance.

[Ran]

17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Don't you think you're using a selective memory here Ran? 

You are so absurdly in your own head about this show and the story it's telling. 

Her remark has to be contextualized with what she says after -- she wants a night where she doesn't have to think about the burden and trouble of being heir.  This includes fobbing off a remark about the smallfolk's views because she doesn't care in that moment. You can pretend it's some grand statement of Rhaenyra's perspective on the smallfolk, or you can recognize it's a young woman in the middle of a new experience not being terribly serious. Like, she steals some sweets on a lark right after.

 

 

 

[SeanF]

11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But when one of the people involved is in line to be an absolute ruler, it creates a gigantic power imbalance.

Yes, but even with absolute rulers, one can’t say that every sexual relationship they had with servants or minor nobility was exploitative.

Even tyrants and genocidaires can be kind and loving to those they care about.  It why war criminals are perfectly capable of fitting into peacetime society.

 

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

You are so absurdly in your own head about this show and the story it's telling. 

Her remark has to be contextualized with what she says after -- she wants a night where she doesn't have to think about the burden and trouble of being heir.  This includes fobbing off a remark about the smallfolk's views because she doesn't care in that moment. You can pretend it's some grand statement of Rhaenyra's perspective on the smallfolk, or you can recognize it's a young woman in the middle of a new experience not being terribly serious. Like, she steals some sweets on a lark right after.

 

 

 

She is not hurt by their comments because they don’t matter. Their existence doesn’t matter. 
 

You’re right she wants a night out for fun, and she is amused in the same way an owner is of their puppy. 
 

Don’t twist yourself in a pretzel, the only example you can give of Rhaenyra being delightful and fun is when she is interacting with people she considers as nothing other than dolls to mess with. 
 

With everyone else she is a bitter and condescending brat.