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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


Ran
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9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

She is not hurt by their comments because they don’t matter. Their existence doesn’t matter. 
 

You’re right she wants a night out for fun, and she is amused in the same way an owner is of their puppy. 
 

Don’t twist yourself in a pretzel, the only example you can give of Rhaenyra being delightful and fun is when she is interacting with people she considers as nothing other than dolls to mess with. 
 

With everyone else she is a bitter and condescending brat.

Being condescending about the smallfolk is no great sin among her class (Sansa is no different, for example).

The brutes are those who enjoy inflicting suffering on them, or are indifferent to their sufferings.

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6 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

That’s Rhys Ifans!!! I would say it’s likely more of an issue of directing than acting because he’s bloody fantastic and EXCELS at ‘jamming it up’. I think the soft spoken stoic works well because when he finally loses it and shows some of the cracks in his demeanour then it will pack a better punch. But either way I HUGHLY doubt it’s down to a fault with Rhys Ifans - who is FANTASTIC. 

Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply that he's a bad actor just because I don't like how he's handled this character! I've enjoyed his performances before. So it's either a question of his choices in playing the role or, as you say, the direction.

Hopefully he'll get more range in the coming episodes.

Random question: who was the man advising Rhaenya in the marriage proposal scene at the episode's beginning?

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16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Yes, but even with absolute rulers, one can’t say that every sexual relationship they had with servants or minor nobility was exploitative.

I do believe that Criston likes her and everything was consensual, but I think it would have been better if they had shown Criston being more into her in earlier episodes.

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15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Being condescending about the smallfolk is no great sin among her class (Sansa is no different, for example).

The brutes are those who enjoy inflicting suffering on them, or are indifferent to their sufferings.

The point is why she is being delightful in front of them. The point is Rhaenyra is not a delightful or likeable person, and that this example is faulty.  

In the end her claim is not worth siding with her because she would be an awful queen. Just like how she is an awful person.

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8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yes, Rhaenyra was turned on watching people have sex. But this is a TV show, and viewers know they’re watching a TV show, and they’re looking for a better presentation than just two bodies pushing against each other. Take the sex scene between Rhaenyra and Criston, for instance—she’s never had sex and he’s been celibate for years. In real life, it would have been a lot more awkward and imperfect, but that’s not what viewers want to see. Which aspects a director chooses to focus on says a lot, and the focus on their faces, hands, hair, etc. is more typical of a female director than a male one.

Oh, I do like that scene pretty well ... it is just that I feel it could have been more Rhaenyra-centric in the sense that we could have seen less of her body and more of his. So that the audience feels more being in her shoes than in Criston's. But I guess they also wanted to show him enjoying the whole thing.

What's kind of bad and even weird is that we don't get an after sex scene nor context as to how they separated afterwards. Did Criston remember he had guard duties after all? Could have been nice to see them fall asleep together and sharing a fun or awkward scene waking up.

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Don't you think you're using a selective memory here Ran? 

Alicent is obviously likeable, she does nothing wrong and is loyal, kind, and dignified infront of everyone she meets, she doesn't belittle people or crack jokes. 

In the scene you reference as to Rhaenyra's likability it’s contextualized by her later statement that the peasants don't matter. She treats them with delight because she doesn't acknowledge their existence, they are subhumans who are thought of as curiosities, like a litter of puppies jumping up and down barking. 

When she speaks to people at her level, she is always rude and condescending (unless they service her needs like Criston Cole). There are a lot of mental gymnastics you have to perform to depict Rhaenyra as likeable or funny. 

This post was paid for by AEGON FOR KING.

Seriously, Alicent is at her nastiest so far here because she immediately sides with her father against Rhaenyra and starts working against her.

And Rhaenyra has a pleasant enough reaction to the Smallfolk, you know, who are shit talking her in PUBLIC with a play.

She handled it rather well given this is treason and is just annoyed.

 

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8 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

LOL. emotional/ sensual touching is part of sex. I think some of you genuinely dont understand that and are indeed proving some points women have about men.

Men do like that part, too ;-). My point is that if it turns out that Rhaenyra basically just wanted to have sex with no strings attached in that scene - and we have to wait and see how it goes - then it could have been better to stress that more. It is there, with it all being silent and there being no talking, but another way could have been to sexualize Criston's body more.

Would have also gone very well nice together on a meta-level with Rhaenyra wanting to be male.

7 hours ago, slant said:

Sigh, it was the first and only non-awkward sex scene in the series so far, there are two discussions here, one is what the audience wants, this may be split along the bouncing body parts and sensual touching lines, but what Rhaenyra in the story wants to do is just carelessly, thoughtlessly and impulsively use Cole for her own gratification. She knows it is a mistake, and does feel guilt over it. 

We have to wait and see how guilty she feels about that.

6 hours ago, Ran said:

I don't think if people really noticed last episode, but in front of the fire with Alicent Viserys outright says that he called his daughter the Realm's Delight to "protect" her from Daemon's ambition. To me, he basically meant that he deliberately set singers and the like to spread the word about how charming and beautiful she was to try and win her the love and support of the realm.

So, yeah, propaganda is a thing on the show, and I think they've done a good job with that aspect of things.

You confuse some things there. Viserys tells Alicent he named Rhaenyra [the heir] to protect the Realm from Daemon, not that he named Rhaenyra 'the Realm's Delight'. That's just how people called his only living child, perhaps because he and Aemma pushed it, perhaps not.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Viserys, OTOH, did come off as worse, particular in the garden party scene where he's clearly a bit tipsy and makes fun of his wife and randomly farting as he laughs, then being rude to Rhaenyra when she tries to salvage the situation. He's clearly a sloppy drunk who let his joy at his brother's return take all of his focus and courtesy.

There seems to be another ripple effect of missing scenes. Rhaenyra was pretty afraid how her father would take her ending the suitor tour prematurely. The follow-up scene - her arrival at the castle and her father being pissed about this seems to be missing, but at the later garden party scene he is still cold towards her, explaining his behavior towards her. And I guess the audience is to interpret this as him being pissed about her early return even without a hypothetical earlier scene but it doesn't really work well.

His attitude towards Alicent seems to be a part of the show presenting the Hightowers as folks who never actually become Targaryens, unlike Aemma Arryn who even looked like them. When Viserys is with Daemon and Rhaenyra he is in 'Targaryen mode', and other family members no longer count. Alicent's later remark about 'the queer customs' of the Targaryens also underlines her status as an outsider in the family, even more so Viserys' book-inspired take on Aegon being 'Otto's blood' and Rhaenyra Viserys' 'own blood', completely ignoring the fact that Aegon also happens to be Viserys' blood.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Re: Alyssa, I think people are reading too much into a throw away line. "You were always the warrior" probably means Daemon was a ferocious little toddler, maybe grabbing at swords and knives Rickon-style, and Alyssa laughed and cooed over it and called him her "little warrior" or whatever.

A better take on this might be to ignore Alyssa's book death and/or imagine that she died years later when Viserys and Daemon were already young men.

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, the Dance arc is nihilistic, and so are the characters in it. That has been known long before HOTD was a thing.

That is part of why the Dance as such is both boring and pointless. It is all style and no substance. It is completely irrelevant which elitist prick wins the war.

The interesting part is what we are getting now, the setup, the motivations of the people. Once the war starts it is clear about what it is about: 'I'm the king!' No, I'm the queen!' That's it, that's all it is about.

2 hours ago, IFR said:

I think this particular quote strays onto a different topic, so I will briefly address it.

Martin doesn't focus purely on sexism, but he also explores classism and other forms of social stratification. Women are often viewed as property in his works, but class is still more important than gender. Rhaenyra could have any commoner flogged and executed at a whim (though if she did this often it would cause discontent). She has plenty of power.

Martin may do that to a point - the show doesn't. So far it has consistently shown that royal women are mostly powerless pawns. Aemma was depicted as a pregnant invalid in her bath, bed, and in childbirth where men literally cut her to pieces. Princess Rhaenys has no part in the ruling of the Realm, no seat on the council, and it is her husband Lord Corlys who wants to marry their daughter to Viserys and she cannot stop it (although she don't seem to like it all that much). She is also completely absent from her husband's war efforts in the Stepstones. Alicent Hightower is shown to have some soft power as an informal advisor of her husband, but she doesn't actually use it so far. She doesn't put ideas in his head, doesn't manipulate him nor does she try to do this. As queen she just stands there in the background at the royal hunt and in the most recent episode. Nobody bows to her, nobody acknowledges her rank, etc. The one thing where she is shown to be in charge is when she sends away the singer. Rhaenyra is shown to have some power in episode 2, but it is power that's literally seized on dragonback ... and even then the men are trying to play it down or ignore it.

In light of all that, the idea that people in this world view royal women as folks who can arbitrarily 'flog and execute' commoners on a whim is not actually something the show actually puts across. Royal men have that power, Daemon has that power as Lord Commander of the City Watch ... the women don't.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

I tend to agree but the whole business with Mysaria is what's got me confused.  Seems weird to insert her into that whole thing.  Maybe we'll get some explanation there - and I do think it's possible Daemon wanted Mysaria to leak it so Viserys found out - but I wouldn't be surprised if it's never really addressed again and they just wanted to give the character some screen time (Mysaria, I mean).

It really doesn't look like Daemon knew Mysaria still existed before he woke up, so that's just not very likely. However, Daemon removing Rhaenyra's disguise when they enter the brothel does indicate he wanted somebody to see and recognize her there.

Mysaria definitely is no longer Daemon's girl at that point ... and we'll have to wait and see if that ever changes again.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Being condescending about the smallfolk is no great sin among her class (Sansa is no different, for example).

The brutes are those who enjoy inflicting suffering on them, or are indifferent to their sufferings.

Rhaenyra is right about the smallfolk there - their view on the matter of the royal succession are irrelevant. Nobody ever asks their opinion on that matter. However, Daemon is also right, of course, that if the people (continue to) oppose the rule of a monarch they might be deposed. It is an issue, but not a very important issue.

And unless they change the story completely Rhaenyra's own original power base will be the smallfolk in the Riverlands who got accustomed to the idea that she is the rightful heir and future queen, after all. They rise up in her name before (m)any of the noble houses really commit themselves.

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

There are a lot of mental gymnastics you have to perform to depict Rhaenyra as likeable or funny. 

Unfortunately, I have to agree

Rhaenyra has gone beyond being a brat and is in the territory of being a harpy. She was very unkind and very irresponsible in a very public fashion towards a lot of people in this episode and I didn't like it.

She was called "the Realm's Delight" (especially at this time in her life) for a reason. People should like her but the way that it is being framed...smh

 

It was a good episode. But I don't like how they are portraying Rhaenyra and, indirectly, Alicent.

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The show is taking a very modernist view that oddly enough is actually similar to the RL Elizabeth the first in some respect.

* Rhaenyra does not want to get married.

* Rhaenyra finds this whole thing a farce.

* Rhaenyra is being forced to entertain suitors.

* Rhaenyra is making the whole thing ridiculous because she has no intention of picking anyone.

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This show is so nuanced and well written. The characters are believable and the dialogue is solid.

All very much the opposite of a certain other show I can think of.

My only gripe is every time they mention the Prince that was Promised or any of that stuff I get a jab of pain from remembering how GoT screwed up / flat out ignored that entire story thread.

Edited by Darryk
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13 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Unfortunately, I have to agree

Rhaenyra has gone beyond being a brat and is in the territory of being a harpy. She was very unkind and very irresponsible in a very public fashion towards a lot of people in this episode and I didn't like it.

She was called "the Realm's Delight" (especially at this time in her life) for a reason. People should like her but the way that it is being framed...smh

 

It was a good episode. But I don't like how they are portraying Rhaenyra and, indirectly, Alicent.

She's not supposed to be entirely likeable. The show's actually doing a good job of foreshadowing what she becomes later.

At least she feels like a well-rounded character.

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7 minutes ago, Darryk said:

This show is so nuanced and well written. The characters are believable and the dialogue is solid.

All very much the opposite of a certain other show I can think of.

My only gripe is every time they mention the Prince that was Promised or any of that stuff I get a jab of pain from remembering how GoT screwed up / flat out ignored that entire story thread.

Sadly, the one time I wish Martin hadn't been followed.

But Martin seems determined the Targaryens really are the special pony heroes of the apocalypse.

However, nothing to do about it now.

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I’m not sure how to frame the question, but is there a non-spoilery answer as to what all this prince who was promised stuff is for someone who didn’t watch past Season 5? It sounds like there’s some secret knowledge that was passed down from Aegon, or a dagger… did GoT borrow bits of Rhaegar’s penchant for prophecies and give it to Aegon?

And by spoilers I mean spoilers you think are probably book spoilers (ie Winds and Dream), if GoT pulled all this out their ass I don’t really care.

Edited by DaveSumm
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45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is part of why the Dance as such is both boring and pointless. It is all style and no substance. It is completely irrelevant which elitist prick wins the war.

Didn't Jeor Mormont tell something similar to Jon Snow when he ran off to fight for Robb? I guess some things never change. 

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5 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I’m not sure how to frame the question, but is there a non-spoilery answer as to what all this prince who was promised stuff is for someone who didn’t watch past Season 5? It sounds like there’s some secret knowledge that was passed down from Aegon, or a dagger… did GoT borrow bits of Rhaegar’s penchant for prophecies and give it to Aegon?

And by spoilers I mean spoilers you think are probably book spoilers (ie Winds and Dream), if GoT pulled all this out their ass I don’t really care.

George R.R. Martin seemed to be implying (and we don't know because we don't know what he's got planned) that the prince who was promised and Melissandre's Chosen One are one in the same, some mythic figure who will save the world from the Others.

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2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

George R.R. Martin seemed to be implying (and we don't know because we don't know what he's got planned) that the prince who was promised and Melissandre's Chosen One are one in the same, some mythic figure who will save the world from the Others.

OK, but it sounds like Dany knew about all this because her ancestors have been telling their kids for … some obscene amount of time. Or have they just been passing this dagger around which says “hey, listen, Others are totally gonna attack soon…”?

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2 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

OK, but it sounds like Dany knew about all this because her ancestors have been telling their kids for … some obscene amount of time. Or have they just been passing this dagger around which says “hey, listen, Others are totally gonna attack soon…”?

It seems like the knowledge got lost at some point, maybe even after the Dance.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more I reflect on this episode, the less I like it. The show is feeling increasingly nihilistic, the characters less likable. Does anyone else get a similar vibe?

Well, this show is a prequel to a series that treated a Big Brother-like figure ending up as King as a good thing, so...

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Fair enough. These scenes have a strange vibe to them, like I’m supposed to know something I don’t from not having watched the last few season of GoT. Maybe they’re shooting for a “if only this pesky Dance didn’t happen then GoT wouldn’t have happened” or something? It just feels odd, the Long Night was what, 8000 years ago? And the knowledge made it 7800 years and then got forgotten?

ETA: so reading a little into it, I’m guessing the show repositioned the prophecy as originating from Aegon the Conqueror?

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