Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said: All three of those are populated by rapists and killers. Literally everywhere in Marin's work is populated by rapists and killers. C.T. Phipps and Targaryen_Fangirl 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: I mean, you seem to have read different books than I have. One of the things that I felt was strongly brought out by monarchs is Daenerys is NOT A GOOD RULER. She's a great CONQUEROR and amazing general with the capacity to lead a wide variety of disparate peoples but objectively terrible at ruling. Also, Bran being King is something that we no knowledge about the results of. I genuinely was shocked that it was Martin's endgame. Bran being king made sense to me because of the aptitude he showed for leadership in ACOK. Maester Luwin said he was Ned’s “true son.” I think people just fell so in love with the idea that he was going to become a tree that they didn’t consider anything else. There’s definitely a disconnect between what GRRM was trying to do with Daenerys in ADWD and how we the readers perceived it. George endorsed the Meereenese Blot, which argued that Dany was managing Meereen well, but was left so emotionally unsatisfied that she ended the book by deciding to throw it aside anyway. Most of us just came away thinking she was a poor ruler. C.T. Phipps 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said: I mean, you seem to have read different books than I have. One of the things that I felt was strongly brought out by monarchs is Daenerys is NOT A GOOD RULER. She's a great CONQUEROR and amazing general with the capacity to lead a wide variety of disparate peoples but objectively terrible at ruling. Also, Bran being King is something that we no knowledge about the results of. I genuinely was shocked that it was Martin's endgame. She actually did a pretty good job with Meereen all things considered... She's definitely better than Cersei and Jon. But she has some serious flaws that are all rooted in her desire to have a home for herself and her loved ones and her habit of people-pleasing. In any case, the point is that Martin is not pro-anarchy or anti-monarchy by any means. EggBlue, Morte, Targaryen_Fangirl and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 Just now, C.T. Phipps said: 1. I appreciated FIRE AND BLOOD for the piss take that it does for Jaehaerys and takes some of the shine off of the man. It shows he's a sexist traditionalist who is an objectively awful father (and in a feudal society like Westeros, his shitty fatherhood results in the seeds being laid for the Dance of the Dragons). 2. They're fine under Mance Rayder as well. They're also living their own lives fine before the Others deprivate them of it. Jaehaerys failings are in his personal character, the realm prospered under him. Under Mance the wildlings got butchered.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Bran being king made sense to me because of the aptitude he showed for leadership in ACOK. Maester Luwin said he was Ned’s “true son.” I think people just fell so in love with the idea that he was going to become a tree that they didn’t consider anything else. There’s definitely a disconnect between what GRRM was trying to do with Daenerys in ADWD and how we the readers perceived it. George endorsed the Meereenese Blot, which argued that Dany was managing Meereen well, but was left so emotionally unsatisfied that she ended the book by deciding to throw it aside anyway. Most of us just came away thinking she was a poor ruler. Weirdly, I thought it was a big criticism of the Iraq War that felt out of place. "We can't bring democracy to Meereen!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: Elective monarchy like the Ironborn. Freefolk monarchy of choice. The Night's Watch elective leadership. We also have multiple Essos rulership styles. And EVERY PAGE is a criticism of the monarchy with the many-many awful monarchs who ruin the lives of everyone around them in constant feuding for power. The Ironborn live by rape and pillage. The free folk live by rape and murder. Essos practices chattel slavery for 80% of the population. The Nights Watch is moribund. Given the alternatives, I’d take monarchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: The Hound kind of spells out George's point that ALL feudalism is full of rapists and killers. 2 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said: Literally everywhere in Marin's work is populated by rapists and killers. A very great way for Martin to promote his anti-monarchist beliefs. What a great endorsement of an alternative. But no, seriously Euronext is worst than Joffrey. Great endorsement of democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, SeanF said: The Ironborn live by rape and pillage. The free folk live by rape and murder. Essos practices chattel slavery for 80% of the population. The Nights Watch is moribund. Given the alternatives, I’d take monarchy. Westeros is a military dictatorship where the Smallfolk have no rights and are targeted by the "good guys" as well with impunity. If you have missed the fact the feudal lords are scum then I think you've missed a lot of the themes. Really, a HUGE part of what makes ASOI&F great is how objectively evil Medieval values were. Just now, butterweedstrover said: A very great way for Martin to promote his anti-monarchist beliefs. What a great endorsement of an alternative. But no, seriously Euronext is worst than Joffrey. Great endorsement of democracy. I'm sorry, I'm not getting your argument. You actually think that Martin endorses monarchy? Edited September 13, 2022 by C.T. Phipps Targaryen_Fangirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 Just now, C.T. Phipps said: Westeros is a military dictatorship where the Smallfolk have no rights and are targeted by the "good guys" as well with impunity. If you have missed the fact the feudal lords are scum then I think you've missed a lot of the themes. Way to move the goal post. From Martin offers alternatives to feudalism is also bad. Incidentally Martin highlights a curbing of the excesses of feudal exploitation (like the right of first night) with centralized monarchal power. Meanwhile democracy gets you Euron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zajaz Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 (edited) Weirdly, GRRM also has lines saying that the Smallfolk loved (and I mean loved, like, so in love) Jaehaerys, despite him being as noble as you can get. It appears that GRRM seems to think that most people just want to live in peace, political model of their society (democracy, monarchy, etc) be damned. If that is so, I agree with him. Edited September 13, 2022 by zajaz Tijgy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: Westeros is a military dictatorship where the Smallfolk have no rights and are targeted by the "good guys" as well with impunity. If you have missed the fact the feudal lords are scum then I think you've missed a lot of the themes. Really, a HUGE part of what makes ASOI&F great is how objectively evil Medieval values were. I'm sorry, I'm not getting your argument. You actually think that Martin endorses monarchy? Do you think Martin is really endorsing chattel slavery, or the cultures of the free folk or Ironborn, as preferable to Westeros? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: . I'm sorry, I'm not getting your argument. You actually think that Martin endorses monarchy? I think Martin never opposes the institution in his books. Meanwhile the gymnastics you have to do to suggests the ironborn are a critique of Westeros society deserve an Olympic Gold metal. Absolute Monarchy in Westeros gets social progress and the end of the Lord’s right to first night. Democracy gets you Euron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: Meanwhile democracy gets you Euron. Not that far fetched. zajaz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zajaz Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said: Not that far fetched. "An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as a King can". -Some shitty movie. Edited September 13, 2022 by zajaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted September 13, 2022 Author Share Posted September 13, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: Absolute Monarchy in Westeros gets social progress and the end of the Lord’s right to first night. And Maegor with piles of skulls and Aerys the Mad King and Joffrey Baratheon and... GRRM is not a black-and-white sort of writer. Edited September 14, 2022 by Ran britomartis and Targaryen_Fangirl 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Ran said: And Maekar with piles of skulls and Aerys the Mad King and Joffrey Baratheon and... GRRM is not a black-and-white sort of writer. Sure, and he is not arguing against the institution of Monarchy. He is arguing the difference between good and bad leadership. Like he has repeated many times in interviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: Martin’s model of good leadership is Jaehaerys, not Mance or Euron. Has GRRM personally ever described Jaehaerys as an ideal leader? The only time we hear this is in the biased accounts of TWOIAF and F&B. Targaryen_Fangirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, zajaz said: "An elected legislature can trample a man's rights as easily as a King can". -Some shitty movie. Except it isn't a legislature. An elected king who serves for life in a system with no separation of powers and no ability to recall is only slightly less shitty than one chosen by primogeniture. Especially when absolute power is vested in that king. Not even remotely similar to modern democracy. 2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said: Cool, so don’t go around making up themes. Martin’s model of good leadership is Jaehaerys, not Mance or Euron. Don’t start volleying the goalpost to try and make up some artificial theme that appeals to you personally. You lost me. Edited September 13, 2022 by Deadlines? What Deadlines? Targaryen_Fangirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Yorick Ampersand Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 More than half the people I know think Rhaenyra should marry Criston Cole. Its obvious the show failed to establish that Kingsguards cant marry. EggBlue, Targaryen_Fangirl, Mithras and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted September 13, 2022 Share Posted September 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said: More than half the people I know think Rhaenyra should marry Criston Cole. Its obvious the show failed to establish that Kingsguardscant marry. Yeah, for some reason they've never mentioned that the Kingsguard are sworn to celibacy. Targaryen_Fangirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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