[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I feel like this makes it sound worse than it was? I don't have the book in front of me but I don't think he hearded people in there. I think they were just seeking refuge. 

The wiki entry even makes it sound like maybe he only meant to burn the inn where Maelor was killed and the flames spread.

Here are the paragraphs in question:

Quote

In the Reach, Lady Merryweather yielded Longtable to Lord Ormund Hightower; true to his word, his lordship did no harm to her or hers, though he did strip her castle of its wealth and every scrap of food, feeding his thousands with her grain as he broke his camp and marched on to Bitterbridge.

When Lady Caswell appeared on the ramparts of her castle to ask for the same terms Lady Merryweather had received, Hightower let Prince Daeron give the answer: “You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor.” Her ladyship could only watch as Bitterbridge was sacked. The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was burned, with hundreds of wounded still within. Only the bridge remained untouched, as it was required to cross the Mander. The people of the town were put to the sword if they tried to fight or flee, or were driven into the river to drown.

Lady Caswell watched from her walls, then commanded that her gates be thrown open. “No castle can be held against a dragon,” she told her garrison. When Lord Hightower rode up, he found her standing atop the gatehouse with a noose about her neck. “Have mercy on my children, lord,” she begged, before throwing herself down to hang. Mayhaps that moved Lord Ormund, for her ladyship’s young sons and daughter were spared and sent in chains to Oldtown. The men of the castle garrison received no mercy but the sword.

Daeron is certainly not the worst of the lot, but from that point on he is clearly no longer a hero. Him agreeing to murder their allies, the Two Betrayers, is also not exactly chivalric behavior. You can cut him some slack there, since they were the worst of the lot at Tumbleton, but the Caltrops were scarcely better.

The idea he was some kind of good guy is clearly wrong.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, MisbornHeir said:

To be fair, are there many instances of rulers with such responsibilities not being unhappy? It's a burden to say the least and the many characters we've gotten to know in Kings Landing in ASOIAF weren't exactly enthused about their job either. And the 'happiness' we did see was a result of drinking or other escapism-inducing addictions.

I mean, yes, the burden of rule weighs on people sure, but c'mon.  This isn't like the president aging a decade per term.  It's a lot easier to rule in an absolute monarchy, and the primary sources of stress for Viserys/Daemon/Rhaenyra/Otto/Alicent are each other.  I mean, yes, I suppose I should leave Alicent out of this considering her horrid situation with Viserys, but still.  You think they all could cheer up once in a while -- which, to be fair, was the entire point of Daemon and Rhaenyra's excursion this episode, it just got really weird really fast.  And we have seen the first two get drunk quite a bit - and Baelon's sons are still miserable!

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

and criticism of feudalism ends where absolute monarchy begins. 

?  This is a pointless distinction as far as the Martin-verse goes.

1 hour ago, Macklunkey said:

Personally, I couldn't have been bothered taking all that armour off. 

Major mood killer! 

Yeah, like I said, Most Laborious Foreplay Scene Ever.

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I thought it was very much a case of "Caedite eos, novit enim Dominus qui sunt!" but I shall reread.

It kinda sounds like you just watched The Patriot, but yeah you're right.  From F&B page 473 (at least my hardcover):

Quote

When Lady Caswell appeared on the ramparts of her castle to ask for the same terms Lady Merryweather had received, Hightower let Prince Daeron give the answer: “You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor.” Her ladyship could only watch as Bitterbridge was sacked. The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was burned, with hundreds of wounded still within. Only the bridge remained untouched, as it was required to cross the Mander. The people of the town were put to the sword if they tried to fight or flee, or were driven into the river to drown.

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

But we’re not talking about Martin’s opinions, we are talking about the narrative and the meanings that can be deciphered from the story and language. 

Huh?  Y'all were totally talking about Martin's opinions.  And nobody's arguing the Starks were portrayed good guys and the Lannisters villains.  That's..a really banal and obvious take unless you're dealing with those Stark-haters over the years that just want to be contrarians for contrary's sake.  Luckily I haven't seen them around much these threads.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Meribald’s speech had nothing to do with the series.

....This almost seems intentionally daft.  Meribald's speech has everything to do with the "Feast for Crows" that the series chronicles.  Does it have anything to do with which lords are right and which are wrong or which kings are good and which are not?  Nope.  That's the entire fucking point!

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Macklunkey said:

Personally, I couldn't have been bothered taking all that armour off. 

Major mood killer! 

Ehm... to each their own, I guess.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:19 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

The Blackwood boy wasn’t Bloody Ben. Ben was a preteen during the war, which doesn’t start for another fifteen years.

That's kinda concerning as far as the timescale goes. He just seems too young to have a teenaged child in just 15 years. I kinda suspect Ben's getting scrapped and that this kid's supposed to be an easter egg for people who know of Benjicot. 

[RumHam]

24 minutes ago, DMC said:

It kinda sounds like you just watched The Patriot, but yeah you're right.  From F&B page 473 (at least my hardcover):

I mistakenly thought that scene was from Braveheart, but thats exactly what I thought of. Maybe its just me but locking people in a sept so you can burn them seems worse than just burning them as they cower in the sept.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Here are the paragraphs in question:

Daeron is certainly not the worst of the lot, but from that point on he is clearly no longer a hero. Him agreeing to murder their allies, the Two Betrayers, is also not exactly chivalric behavior. You can cut him some slack there, since they were the worst of the lot at Tumbleton, but the Caltrops were scarcely better.

The idea he was some kind of good guy is clearly wrong.

 Well I meat the good one of Alicent's boys. Compared to his brothers he comes off as a saint. His reluctance to take credit for his dragons victory reflects well on him.

[SeanF]

50 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, yes, the burden of rule weighs on people sure, but c'mon.  This isn't like the president aging a decade per term.  It's a lot easier to rule in an absolute monarchy, and the primary sources of stress for Viserys/Daemon/Rhaenyra/Otto/Alicent are each other.  I mean, yes, I suppose I should leave Alicent out of this considering her horrid situation with Viserys, but still.  You think they all could cheer up once in a while -- which, to be fair, was the entire point of Daemon and Rhaenyra's excursion this episode, it just got really weird really fast.  And we have seen the first two get drunk quite a bit - and Baelon's sons are still miserable!

?  This is a pointless distinction as far as the Martin-verse goes.

Yeah, like I said, Most Laborious Foreplay Scene Ever.

It kinda sounds like you just watched The Patriot, but yeah you're right.  From F&B page 473 (at least my hardcover):

 

Huh?  Y'all were totally talking about Martin's opinions.  And nobody's arguing the Starks were portrayed good guys and the Lannisters villains.  That's..a really banal and obvious take unless you're dealing with those Stark-haters over the years that just want to be contrarians for contrary's sake.  Luckily I haven't seen them around much these threads.

....This almost seems intentionally daft.  Meribald's speech has everything to do with the "Feast for Crows" that the series chronicles.  Does it have anything to do with which lords are right and which are wrong or which kings are good and which are not?  Nope.  That's the entire fucking point!

I think Martin maximises the cruelty. What we see is not standard baronial warfare, of the Wars of the Roses kind.  There were occasional sacks, and prisoners were executed, but neither side wished to destroy the Realm they wanted to rule.

The War of the Five Kings, and The Dance of the Dragons, are grim wars of extermination, like the Thirty Years War, The Deluge, or the Albigensian Crusade.  Wars that were fought against heretics or infidels, who deserved only to be slaughtered to the last woman and child.  I expect that eventually, the war in Slavers Bay will be a war of extermination, like the Haitian Revolt.

What is actually the point of this darkness? I’m not entirely sure.  

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I mistakenly thought that scene was from Braveheart

There is that scene in Braveheart where Isabella gives them information so they can ambush the guys coming to kill them and then lock them in and burn them alive, but those fucks totally deserved it.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What is actually the point of this darkness? I’m not entirely sure.

Fun reading ->  $$$  

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Massacring the smallfolk would in no way reflect ill on a leader in this world.

Honestly, I think the show should have outright said Kings Landing was celebrating Daemon's slaughter to highlight how little the Goldcloaks had been doing until then.

The police are often praised for their violence and brutality when, you know, people are actually guilty.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

22 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What is actually the point of this darkness? I’m not entirely sure.  

GRRM has said that conflict and danger is something we hate in real life but crave in our fiction.

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Honestly, I think the show should have outright said Kings Landing was celebrating Daemon's slaughter to highlight how little the Goldcloaks had been doing until then.

The police are often praised for their violence and brutality when, you know, people are actually guilty.

The medieval lower classes had no issue at all with extreme punishments being inflicted upon petty barons, thieves, or outlaws, by the authorities, for all of those groups preyed upon the weakest, while leaving alone those who could defend themselves.

[butterweedstrover]

35 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

GRRM has said that conflict and danger is something we hate in real life but crave in our fiction.

That’s a pretty surface level assessment that reinforces the idea that his brutality is gratuitous. 
 

If people don’t crave the violence in real life then it’s just a tool in fiction to keep people engaged. And it stops working once readers become desensitized. 

2 hours ago, DMC said:

.

....This almost seems intentionally daft.  Meribald's speech has everything to do with the "Feast for Crows" that the series chronicles.  Does it have anything to do with which lords are right and which are wrong or which kings are good and which are not?  Nope.  That's the entire fucking point!

The suffering of the Riverlands has nothing to do with the story besides maybe some connection to ‘Lannisters bad’ since they are the ones primarily to blame. 
 

The themes of pointless suffering are irrelevant because the wars fought all have distinct purpose and meaning. 
 

The whole of these chapters were used to delay the plot and drag on the page count plus some world building.

Edited September 14, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[MisbornHeir]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I mean, yes, the burden of rule weighs on people sure, but c'mon.  This isn't like the president aging a decade per term.  It's a lot easier to rule in an absolute monarchy, and the primary sources of stress for Viserys/Daemon/Rhaenyra/Otto/Alicent are each other.  I mean, yes, I suppose I should leave Alicent out of this considering her horrid situation with Viserys, but still.  You think they all could cheer up once in a while -- which, to be fair, was the entire point of Daemon and Rhaenyra's excursion this episode, it just got really weird really fast.  And we have seen the first two get drunk quite a bit - and Baelon's sons are still miserable!

Viserys has been realizing the hard way that he is not just unable to please everyone, but that those closest to him can work against him and make things go awry when he does all right. His wife also died in childbirth along with a stillborn babe. That is incredible grief to bear and new children can't fill that hole. 

In terms of cheering up, the royal hunt was escapism for Viserys. He above all wanted to forget about the realm's troubles for a day; we saw how he avoided Tyland Lannister's report on the stepstones. In the latest episode during his reunion afterparty with Daemon, they spent time reminiscing and cracking jokes. This isn't just realistic for world leaders but anyone in an position of consequential leadership. Most don't have the will required to bear that weight. It's pretty realistic. 

[Macklunkey]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Ehm... to each their own, I guess.

If I was Cole I mean. It doesn't really lend itself to lust.

[EggBlue]

regarding Viserys and Daemon , I think showrunners have actually gotten it right! yes they are both menchildren , Daemon in particular  . but it makes sense with the story. people pleaser /party king Viserys is described for the beginning of his reign when he and queen Aemma according to F&B held many feasts and tourneys.  post Aemma Viserys is more of a blind king who doesn't like to face problems . ignoring the factions at court , threatening everyone(including his own sons) to keep quiet about Strong-Velaryons , banishing his brother twice , threatening his daughter to be disinherited and firing his best bud after long service is not much of a party king! so, although I'm personally starting to feel frustrated with how gloomy  Viserys's court is , I think it makes total sense within the story . Daemon , too , works well in my view . his motivations are depicted well so far . 

what I don't like is how "the realm's delight" feature of Rhaenyra has not really been depicted and I am still waiting for Alicent to get in her manipulation mode which I suspect will happen when she wears her first green dress and finally gets some agency . 

what I just can't understand is the so called theme of "decadence" with all the noble kills left and right . 

[DMC]

45 minutes ago, MisbornHeir said:

In the latest episode during his reunion afterparty with Daemon, they spent time reminiscing and cracking jokes. This isn't just realistic for world leaders but anyone in an position of consequential leadership. Most don't have the will required to bear that weight. It's pretty realistic.

I don't want to get into a protracted argument and understand all the context you provided in this post, just saying the lack of mirth in the show thus far is a fair criticism.  Viserys did have the reunion afterparty scene, but it was literally like 90 seconds of him being a drunken dick. 

And I think you're being a bit heavy-handed on "the weight of these leaders."  These are incredibly privileged individuals other than the inherent plight of the women, with the world as their oyster.  The only conflict brewing thus far is, again, about the succession and how that makes the five main characters interact/conflict with each other.  Other than that we've had the Stepstones threat which Viserys literally ignores for years - within the show already!  His seat is entirely secure and ruling is not that hard.  That's kind of the entire point of this era in the Targ history.

[El Guapo]

8 hours ago, DMC said:

Yeah, I think this is a fair criticism for the entire show.  Viserys, Daemon, Rhaenyra, Alicent, Otto.  They all have certain reasons to not be, of course, but for the five primary people that rule a continent they are VERY unhappy.

Oh I don't know, Rhaenyra seemed quite happy last episode.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:19 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

The Blackwood boy wasn’t Bloody Ben. Ben was a preteen during the war, which doesn’t start for another fifteen years.

Yeah, that is a bit confusing. The wiki says that his name is Willem, but according to the episode subtitles, he is Samwell. 

[C.T. Phipps]

23 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, that is a bit confusing. The wiki says that his name is Willem, but according to the episode subtitles, he is Samwell. 

Sounds like they planned it to be that but realized the time didn't work.

Even the showrunners struggle with the 20 year timeskip.

Edited September 15, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

Don't really know where to put this - don't want to start a new thread and these threads do just kind of devolve into general discussion until the next episode so...plus, this is about this episode.

Anyway, saw this article summarizing Emily Carey's (Alicent) interview with Newsweek about her sex scene with Considine and how she was initially scared and uncomfortable but the intimacy coordinators were helpful as was Considine and everything went fine.  So, no big deal right?  Wouldn't have even clicked on that article frankly, except HuffPo titled it "'House Of The Dragon' Teen Star Says She Felt 'Scared' To Film Sex Scene With Older Co-star." 

Now obviously clickbait is fair game, but for a site so up its own ass being this liberal vanguard, pretty fucking gross how misleading the headline is.