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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


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On 9/11/2022 at 7:30 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

you fucked Daemon," the writing was a lot weaker this episode

Shame on you my good sir! To impugn a work blessed by the GRRM himself!
I know thee to have clever eyes for I have seen thy posts, but thy ears are found wanting :) 

You mock a fun deed

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1 hour ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Shame on you my good sir! To impugn a work blessed by the GRRM himself!
I know thee to have clever eyes for I have seen thy posts, but thy ears are found wanting :) 

You mock a fun deed

I really liked that line because it shows her utterly acting out of character, which is in character for how badly this has affected her.

Either from jealousy of Rhaenyra with an attractive man/daemon in particular, disgust for her fucking her uncle, or suppressed lust for Rhaenyra herself.

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1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Either from jealousy of Rhaenyra with an attractive man/daemon in particular, disgust for her fucking her uncle, or suppressed lust for Rhaenyra herself.

I think it was a combination of feelings of jealousy (albeit not necessarily for Daemon), betrayal and hurt she heard it through her father telling her gross husband instead of her only friend telling her herself (which Alicent emphasized, like, the day before), and legit worry for Rhaenyra.  And I thought she delivered it very well to encapsulate all that.  Really good scene.  You could see Rhaenyra figuring out she had to lie to her.

This is one aspect where you'd kinda want Alicent and Rhaenyra not to be aged quite so exact to essentially be indistinguishable.  It would have landed better if Alicent was a bit older/big sister-y here.  That's not to say the benefits of that decision don't outweigh the downsides, but still.

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3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Either from jealousy of Rhaenyra with an attractive man/daemon in particular, disgust for her fucking her uncle, or suppressed lust for Rhaenyra herself.

I assumed it was because she knows that if Daemon/Rhaenyra become a thing and marry, Aegon will not be able to become heir. She tells Rhaenyra that she and the king have both been looking for a match for her.

But yeah, there was probably jealously of Rhaenyra's lifestyle as well.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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I think Alicent's reaction to the situation is more of a genuine disgust and disappointment in Rhaenyra , proven by clear relief when Rhaenyra swears nothing has happened. and that is not just because of "Targaryen's queer customs".  so far, we know Alicent is religious , how religious is yet to be seen . but if I know one thing about religious people who view pre-marriage sex as a some sort of sin , it's that they are usually quick to judge and condemn (in my experience at least). she might also feel betrayed by Rhaenyra when she has defended her inheritance despite deep down agreeing with her father that as the first male descendant , it's Aegon's right in eyes of "Gods and men". and she'll potentially feel more betrayed when she knows Rhaenyra has not only lied to her but is also responsible for her father's dismissal  ... I believe we will see Alicent's jealousy over Rhaenyra's lifestyle and freedom in marriage  whether she'll know the nature of her feelings or not , but that's yet to come. 

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I think Alicent takes her position and her duty very seriously, and she thinks that Rhaenyra is flouting all responsibility by behaving the way she has. And in that respect, Alicent is right—we saw just how rude and undiplomatic Rhaenyra was at the beginning of the episode, and earlier at the hunt and when meeting the kingsguard candidates. She has not behaved as a future ruler should. We can criticize Viserys for a lot of things, but I’m sure he probably would have handled all of those situations better when he was her age, so it’s not even a question of double standards in this case.

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45 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

we saw just how rude and undiplomatic Rhaenyra was at the beginning of the episode

Don't mean to pick on you because this has been said a lot, but I totally don't look at that scene that way. 

First of all, it's an establishing scene anyway so she can see Daemon arrive.  But anyway, first we see the ancient Dondarrion, who she of course does ridicule, but not in a way everybody else wasn't already thinking and consequently immediately laughs at.  And she's frankly right when she tells Boremund it's "unseemly" that he should be considered.  Then she's surprised by the kid Blackwood (whomever he is), but she's polite until it's Bracken that starts the ridicule and even then she says "I quite like that one."  Then the two draw swords and she rightly gets the fuck out of there.

Anyway, the context of the scene gives no reason to assume she hasn't been "diplomatically" entertaining this litany of suitors for quite some time.  Indeed, it establishes she's been at this for quite awhile then provides some entertainment at the end.  It's strikingly similar to a couple Dany-at-Meereen scenes I recall but can't specifically recount off the top of my head.

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On 9/13/2022 at 10:15 AM, Lord Varys said:

Men do like that part, too ;-). My point is that if it turns out that Rhaenyra basically just wanted to have sex with no strings attached in that scene - and we have to wait and see how it goes - then it could have been better to stress that more. It is there, with it all being silent and there being no talking, but another way could have been to sexualize Criston's body more.

Would have also gone very well nice together on a meta-level with Rhaenyra wanting to be male.

 

I dont think rhaenrya wants to be male, I think her argument is women should be free to do what they want. 

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51 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think Alicent takes her position and her duty very seriously, and she thinks that Rhaenyra is flouting all responsibility by behaving the way she has. And in that respect, Alicent is right—we saw just how rude and undiplomatic Rhaenyra was at the beginning of the episode, and earlier at the hunt and when meeting the kingsguard candidates. She has not behaved as a future ruler should. We can criticize Viserys for a lot of things, but I’m sure he probably would have handled all of those situations better when he was her age, so it’s not even a question of double standards in this case.

I think both girls are actually implied to take their duties seriously, though in different ways . Alicent accepts her specific role and no matter how much it frustrates her (whether her role as and obedient daughter or a wife) , she does them exactly as told .but Rhaenyra does not follow the rules blindly . I believe this is perfectly shown in their first garden scene , where Alicent reads their lessons as told , while , Rhaenyra , despite already knowing the lesson , is not in the mood to listen to what septa has asked them to do . 

however , I think showrunners have kinda failed to communicate Rhaenyra's sense of duty in the last two episodes simply because of her story in these two episodes . 

as for the double standard , Viserys's council meeting in ep1 where he interrupts Corlys to talk about his party , ep3 where he ignores Tyland Lannister to enjoy his other party and all his drinking in the last two episodes are not that different from Rhaenyra's frustration of ancient suiters .

 

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45 minutes ago, DMC said:

Don't mean to pick on you because this has been said a lot, but I totally don't look at that scene that way. 

First of all, it's an establishing scene anyway so she can see Daemon arrive.  But anyway, first we see the ancient Dondarrion, who she of course does ridicule, but not in a way everybody else wasn't already thinking and consequently immediately laughs at.  And she's frankly right when she tells Boremund it's "unseemly" that he should be considered.  Then she's surprised by the kid Blackwood (whomever he is), but she's polite until it's Bracken that starts the ridicule and even then she says "I quite like that one."  Then the two draw swords and she rightly gets the fuck out of there.

Anyway, the context of the scene gives no reason to assume she hasn't been "diplomatically" entertaining this litany of suitors for quite some time.  Indeed, it establishes she's been at this for quite awhile then provides some entertainment at the end.  It's strikingly similar to a couple Dany-at-Meereen scenes I recall but can't specifically recount off the top of my head.

Yeah, all that falls under the category of “rudeness.” If she had been polite up until then, then they should have showed us that. Instead they showed her acting like an asshole. That was their decision. Make of it what you will.

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Ugh I can’t believe this stupid show is making me defend Alicent effing Hightower. 

Can you imagine if Sansa acted the way Rhaenyra does? People called her a bitch for disagreeing with Jon while presiding over the castle that she was the ruling lady of. 
 

I’ll say this for Otto. Although he definitely uses his children as political tools, he doesn’t disparage them the way Tywin did. Tywin always treated his children with contempt; Otto seems to actually like his daughter, even if he uses her to gain power. In that respect, he’s much better than Tywin.

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6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Again, she wasn't rude to Blackwood.

She was condescending. Which is fine, but when we only see her on one tone of voice it becomes grating. 

Many characters who are made to feel awkward would at least try to hide their feelings, or we could have seen the visible strain on her face as she struggled (and failed) to keep herself composed. Instead she promotes the jeering. When swords are drawn she bounces instead of using whatever authority she had to keep the peace, especially in a situation where a kid might well have died. 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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8 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

She was condescending. Which is fine, but when we only see her on one tone of voice it becomes grating. 

Many characters who are made to feel awkward would at least try to hide their feelings, or we could have seen the visible strain on her face as she struggled (and failed) to keep herself composed. Instead she promotes the jeering. When swords are drawn she bounces instead of using whatever authority she had to keep the peace, especially in a situation where a kid might well have died. 

Yeah, I’m not a Daenerys fan (in the books, I much more prefer Rhaenyra), but she would have handled that much better. And again, she’s younger than Rhaenyra too.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Laughing at a little kid when a grown man calls him a “dumb c*nt” is a pretty shitty thing to do.

While in the same breath saying "I could learn to like that one" when referring to Blackwood?  After they show a reaction shot of her giving nodding admiration to his little speech?  No, it's really not.  Watch the scene again.

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

or we could have seen the visible strain on her face as she tried to keep herself composed rather than promoting the crowd's behavior

We do, literally, get a shot of her straining herself to try and keep composed. 

And bouncing when swords come out is hardly a character flaw.  You can call it a show flaw that Baratheon didn't do anything about it, but that's not on Rhaenyra.

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16 minutes ago, DMC said:

We do, literally, get a shot of her straining herself to try and keep composed. 

And bouncing when swords come out is hardly a character flaw.  You can call it a show flaw that Baratheon didn't do anything about it, but that's not on Rhaenyra.

Once the swords are drawn she automatically turns and says: "We're leaving." 

For someone who despises tradition and proper manners and diplomacy she might have breeched them to save a child from potential harm, or she might have permitted her men to stay and contain the situation. Instead with a smile on her face she just glides off.  

So she obviously does not actually like that one, it's all a game to her.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I can’t rewatch the clip at the moment. Doesn’t she make the remark about learning to like Blackwood after he draws his sword? 

Yes, she kind of enjoyed his presentation ... after he presented himself. She wasn't enjoying the fact that a little boy asked for her hand, though, when she first saw him.

In context one should compare this silly thing more with Aegon III's ball where he sat on the throne for hours and hours while hundreds of women were presenting themselves. You get bored very quickly, and Rhaenyra actually does have to listen to everything those men tell her.

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