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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


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1 hour ago, Ramsay B. said:

This explanation confuses me. So Daemon is totally surprised that Rhaenyra might actually be into it. Like he didn’t even consider it could be possible, especially knowing his niece. That seems odd to me.

I figured he couldn’t do the deed because he felt guilty.

I heard that comment / viewed the scene as it became more real for him that she was into it, not unappealing. Like, oh I'm trying to seduce my niece to screw with my brother, but this might actually really hurt her too and I love her a lot.

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Don't both sides in the Dance murder children and innocent people? I think a lot of what the blacks did was terrible but it doesn't change the fact that Rhaenyra was clearly the appointed heir. It seems pretty clear cut to me. If you don't want to go into it again could you point me to where you went into it the first time?

Both sides do horrible things of course, which is why it's silly to read it as a hero vs villain story. And I'm just too lazy to look for the discussion now, but the crux of it is that if the precedent against Rhaenyra being Queen is exactly the one that allowed Viserys to be crowned over Rhaenys in the first place (and as the son of the 2nd son, his case was much weaker). And as Viserys himself pointed out in this show, not even he is above tradition and social convention.

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28 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I wholly disagree with this. As a generalization, men are more likely to be stimulated by straight-forward visuals (body parts) but women prefer more emotional connections. We got that throughout the entire scene, especially with the gentle, close focus on their intimate touches as she removed his armor

Even if one would agree with that - Rhaenyra Targaryen doesn't want to cuddle or 'emotional connect' in that scene, she just wants to FUCK! She is already horny, there is no need to get in the mood or anything.

29 minutes ago, IFR said:

But not when the subject is their employee, which would be more the case for Cole.

And I wouldn't even say that encompasses the power dynamic. It's more equivalent to when Lavrentiy Beria gave his interests a "choice". Obviously Cole is more willing than the women Beria preyed on, but the potential consequences of refusal are all the same.

They are not really the same, because Rhaenyra doesn't have real power at this point. Criston could easily enough destroy her reputation as well, as we see in that entire episode. Although Rhaenyra should be above such things, as Daemon rather eloquently lays out, she isn't, because her father is too conventional for that.

Rhaenyra left the castle without permission, disguised as a page. If Criston had reported that back to Viserys or the Hand, in addition with her trying to seduce Criston himself, it could very well have destroyed her in connection with the other thing.

You must keep in mind that those KG are both protectors and, well, guardians of their royal charges, especially the royal women. The Kingsguard is utterly devoted to the king, so one of them accusing the queen or a princess of any sexual misconduct wouldn't be something that's brushed aside easily. And this does happen. In the book it is said that Arryk Cargyll was the one who found Daemon and Rhaenyra abed together and informed the king.

For context, ask yourself how much weight the sworn word of Ser Barristan Selmy would have had against that of a teenage girl.

29 minutes ago, IFR said:

If one party in a sexual interaction has control over the livelihood of another, this is coercive in nature even if the subject to the advancement is interested in sex. If the subject is of a more ambiguous mindset, then it's even more problematic.

This kind of thing is meaningless if it doesn't figure into the decisions of the people involved. Even less so in a setting where the roles are reversed. Women have to deal with powerful men trying to push boundaries and exploiting them their entire lives. But this is not something men face often (which can be a problem when you are one of the poor guys who gets exploited by a woman), so Criston Cole would not consider himself 'at Rhaenyra's mercy' unless it was made explicit to him - say, something along the lines of 'Have sex with me or I'll destroy you!' (and even that he might actually view as a joke at first, considering their earlier friendly relationship). Instead, he would view Rhaenyra as his charge, and himself as her bodyguard, giving him ample power over her up to control over her person and body if she were in danger and had to be moved to some other place for her own protection/benefit.

In all that he is not responsible or working for her, but for her father, the king.

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2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Both sides do horrible things of course, which is why it's silly to read it as a hero vs villain story. And I'm just too lazy to look for the discussion now, but the crux of it is that if the precedent against Rhaenyra being Queen is exactly the one that allowed Viserys to be crowned over Rhaenys in the first place (and as the son of the 2nd son, his case was much weaker). And as Viserys himself pointed out in this show, not even he is above tradition and social convention.

Apparently he sees himself as being above some conventions, but not others. It is his call. He is the king.

It is also pointed out that the Small Council in the show that de iure it not forbidden or anything to name a female heir. It just never happened before, allegedly. (It actually did happen quite often, Maegor and Jaehaerys both had female heirs for a time.)

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Just now, Winterfell is Burning said:

Both sides do horrible things of course, which is why it's silly to read it as a hero vs villain story. And I'm just too lazy to look for the discussion now, but the crux of it is that if the precedent against Rhaenyra being Queen is exactly the one that allowed Viserys to be crowned over Rhaenys in the first place (and as the son of the 2nd son, his case was much weaker). And as Viserys himself pointed out in this show, not even he is above tradition and social convention.

Right, but a king can name his heir. Jaehaerys chose not to do this and called a great council but that was his call. I don't think he would agree that whatever the council decided was binding precedent from then on. That future kings no longer had the option of naming a Princess of Dragonstone.

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Once again trying to avoid getting into it too much, while we don't see with kings exactly, we definitely see the power of lords to nominate heirs is not absolute- otherwise Tywin wouldn't have to scheme to get rid of Tyrion or Randyll to send Sam to the wall (also, the fact that KG and NW can't inherit is in part to avoid succession conflicts later). Aegon IV also doesn't name one of his legitimized bastards as heirs. Anyway, the point I made earlier wasn't whether Rhaneyra or Aegon is the rightful heir (the correct answer is that Viserys is an idiot ), but rather that the situation is a lot less clear cut than Cersei having 3 sons with Jaime and putting them on throne, which stands. 

Edited by Winterfell is Burning
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40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra left the castle without permission, disguised as a page. If Criston had reported that back to Viserys or the Hand, in addition with her trying to seduce Criston himself, it could very well have destroyed her in connection with the other thing.

If Cole attempted to seduce Rhaenyra with the mutual knowledge that he could use this information against Rhaenyra, that would be coercion too.

What we see is that Rhaenyra is the favored heir of Viserys. She is mercurial and impulsive. She has the ear of her father, as we've seen many times.

She ignored Cole in his many points of resisting her, and overrode his clear reluctance until he was more complicit.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This kind of thing is meaningless if it doesn't figure into the decisions of the people involved. Even less so in a setting where the roles are reversed. Women have to deal with powerful men trying to push boundaries and exploiting them their entire lives. But this is not something men face often (which can be a problem when you are one of the poor guys who gets exploited by a woman), so Criston Cole would not consider himself 'at Rhaenyra's mercy' unless it was made explicit to him - say, something along the lines of 'Have sex with me or I'll destroy you!' (and even that he might actually view as a joke at first, considering their earlier friendly relationship). Instead, he would view Rhaenyra as his charge, and himself as her bodyguard, giving him ample power over her up to control over her person and body if she were in danger and had to be moved to some other place for her own protection/benefit.

In all that he is not responsible or working for her, but for her father, the king.

These are fictional characters, and so there is no real answer to what Cole actually thinks in this situation; we can only speculate based on what we've seen in this show.

My interpretation of the scene is that this is something he would consider, because it does factor into the situation. As has been addressed, there are many conflicting thoughts by the actors, writers, director and creators as to what is going on here, so it's possible that no one considered the power dynamic, but it's also possible that it was considered.

Regardless, it's a dynamic that I certainly see here. You may disagree. In which case I don't think that we'll find any profit in further discussion. The issue of power dynamics and coercive relationships is not clearly delineated by any means, which is why it has become such a problem in modern dynamics (since that is more a matter of conversation now). But I doubt any amount of discussion will let us see eye to eye on this topic, because a debate on topics of what constitutes a wrongful power disparity rarely finds agreement.

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2 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I wholly disagree with this. As a generalization, men are more likely to be stimulated by straight-forward visuals (body parts) but women prefer more emotional connections. We got that throughout the entire scene, especially with the gentle, close focus on their intimate touches as she removed his armor

Agreed. Women are stimulated more by atmosphere and imagination than bouncing body parts. It’s the main reason why women tend to read erotica rather than watch porn. 
 

Assuming Cole wants to run away with Rhaenyra now, I think the rift will come from him realizing that she used him as a fling. Even if she wants to continue their affair, she’ll want him to remain a side piece and a secret, which will offend his pride. Genuine heartbreak and humiliation will likely fuel his hatred of her.

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37 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Agreed. Women are stimulated more by atmosphere and imagination than bouncing body parts. It’s the main reason why women tend to read erotica rather than watch porn. 
 

Assuming Cole wants to run away with Rhaenyra now, I think the rift will come from him realizing that she used him as a fling. Even if she wants to continue their affair, she’ll want him to remain a side piece and a secret, which will offend his pride. Genuine heartbreak and humiliation will likely fuel his hatred of her.

If the show has Criston Cole believe that he can run away with Rhaenyra and marry her, then he'd be an idiot of gigantic proportions (a naive or lovestruck idiot, but an idiot, in the end), which is funny, since my initial reading of his character was either a guy who had a serious Madonna-Whore complex (to the point a girl expressing sexual interest in him was a sign that she was wanton or a whore), or a potential predator that wanted to bang the princess he had been guarding since she was a little girl.

My initial reading of the guy might have been more sinister than the one the show is apparently leaning on as of now (not that keeping a grudge this big against a girl just because she used you a fling is not sinister).

Then again, the writers might have whitewashed his character just as they have done so with others.

Edited by zajaz
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2 hours ago, IFR said:

But not when the subject is their employee, which would be more the case for Cole.

And I wouldn't even say that encompasses the power dynamic. It's more equivalent to when Lavrentiy Beria gave his interests a "choice". Obviously Cole is more willing than the women Beria preyed on, but the potential consequences of refusal are all the same.

He could have risked the consequences of rejecting Rhaenyra, sure.

Anyway, who is to say whether the suggestion of skewed power dynamics was intended or not by the writers and director? As has been observed, their own accounts of what is happening conflict. If it wasn't intended, it was an oversight because that skewed dynamic was present.

If one party in a sexual interaction has control over the livelihood of another, this is coercive in nature even if the subject to the advancement is interested in sex. If the subject is of a more ambiguous mindset, then it's even more problematic.

Plenty of employers and employees have married/ had sex with each other, including myself and my wife.  Again, it’s daft to call such relationships exploitative.  They may be, but there’s no reason to believe that most are.

Beria was a monster who raped and murdered women and girls of all ages, threatened their loved ones, and led an apparatus of terror.  Rhaenyra is no such person.

Edited by SeanF
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4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I'd argue it's more so because Robert, himself, was a usurper.

I’d add that the Stark soldiers *did* carry out plenty of atrocities in The War of the Five Kings (at least as we would define such things).  They murdered civilians, they raped, and they pillaged.  That’s simply the way of war, in this world.

But, Robb and Catelyn remain much more attractive characters than their enemies.

Edited by SeanF
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43 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Once again trying to avoid getting into it too much, while we don't see with kings exactly, we definitely see the power of lords to nominate heirs is not absolute- otherwise Tywin wouldn't have to scheme to get rid of Tyrion or Randyll to send Sam to the wall (also, the fact that KG and NW can't inherit is in part to avoid succession conflicts later). Aegon IV also doesn't name one of his legitimized bastards as heirs. Anyway, the point I made earlier wasn't whether Rhaneyra or Aegon is the rightful heir (the correct answer is that Viserys is an idiot ), but rather that the situation is a lot less clear cut than Cersei having 3 sons with Jaime and putting them on throne, which stands. 

Not really, since lords are not kings (and Tyrion never was Tywin's heir, anyway), and we don't know whether Robert would have believed the story about Cersei's children (the Realm doesn't believe Stannis' little tale), nor how he would have ruled on his succession had he believed it (he could have kept Joffrey as heir, anyway, he could have named Stannis or Renly or one of his bastards instead).

In his last will Robert reaffirms Joffrey as his heir. It is Ned who forges it and who goes against it, trying to crown a man Robert hadn't named his heir. And may not have named his heir because he didn't want him to rule.

Ned had some reason to believe Robert may have changed the succession had he known about the twincest. But King Viserys I made it crystal clear that he wouldn't change the succession, so what happens there is treason.

11 minutes ago, IFR said:

She ignored Cole in his many points of resisting her, and overrode his clear reluctance until he was more complicit.

These are fictional characters, and so there is no real answer to what Cole actually thinks in this situation; we can only speculate based on what we've seen in this show.

We can be reasonably sure that this is not how men in this world think of girls/young men, never mind if they are princesses or not. They are not seen as people with power, not even Queen Alicent is. If there were examples of royal women destroying Kingsguard in this manner such a thing might figure into Criston's decision-making process. But there is nothing of that sort there. If you have no reason to think the other party has power over you in this regard you that kind of thing doesn't figure into it.

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Criston could have reported on Rhaenyra.

That would have gone GREAT as we see with Otto.

Otto has a clear motive to destroy Rhaenyra. Criston Cole does not. Rhaenyra made him a KG, so him reporting on her would be seen as more likely true than false. Folks may even be inclined to believe him even if he told a lie.

This is kind of an interesting condundrum there for the writers since Mr. Crown really acts like a moron there. A good plotter would have used another piece to inform Viserys about what had transpired. And there is an obvious piece right there - Queen Alicent, the one person Viserys could not, you know, fire.

Not to mention the possibility of arranging a larger scandal by leaking the whole thing to the public in a convincing fashion which might eventually force the king to do something about it.

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Agreed. Women are stimulated more by atmosphere and imagination than bouncing body parts. It’s the main reason why women tend to read erotica rather than watch porn.

Rhaenyra clearly got turned on by watching people having sex. She was not reading a book. She got horny and she wanted sex. The director should present the point of view of a horny woman desiring sex, not explore how women like to get horny by themselves.

If it turns out that Criston was just a meaningless fling for her then the whole thing is definitely too focused on his pleasure, and treating the whole thing too tenderly.

Although I guess Rhaenyra might actually have considerable feelings for her in light of the way she greeted him when he showed up the next morning.

By the way - kind of ridiculous how Rhaenyra actually dresses herself. If they have chamber maids in Downton Abbey why does Rhaenyra Targaryen have to dress herself? What comes next? Is Alicent going to cook a meal for Viserys? It was also bordering on the inappropriate to have her clean him. There are servants for that kind of thing, too, servants much more qualified in that kind of work than Viserys' young wife.

They should have little to no privacy there, being surrounded by servants 24/7. It is good to see how large the court is and how many people are standing around often enough, but there are also letdowns there.

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Assuming Cole wants to run away with Rhaenyra now, I think the rift will come from him realizing that she used him as a fling. Even if she wants to continue their affair, she’ll want him to remain a side piece and a secret, which will offend his pride. Genuine heartbreak and humiliation will likely fuel his hatred of her.

I guess it will mostly revolve around him breaking his vows and coming up with the idea that this can only be mended if they marry. Because he cannot look at himself in the mirror and admit to himself that he would break his vows so easily if it wasn't 'the love his life' or 'leading to marriage'.

4 minutes ago, zajaz said:

If the show has Criston Cole believe that he can run away with Rhaenyra and marry her, then he'd be an idiot of gigantic proportions (a naive or lovestruck idiot, but an idiot, in the end), which is funny, since my initial reading of his character was either a guy who had a serious Madonna-Whore complex, or a potential predator that wanted to bang the princess he had been guarding since she was a little girl. My initial reading of the guy might have been more sinister than the one the show is apparently leaning on as of now (not that keeping a grudge this big against a girl just because she used you a fling is not sinister). Then again, the writers might have whitewashed his character just as they have done so with others.

You can drop that whole 'little girl' thing there. George is so ridiculously incompetent with numbers and children that you cannot take much of that seriously. Joffrey Velaryon is three when he challenges Aemond over a dragon. That is ... just beyond anything that's even remotely realistic. And nothing in the world forced him to place this event - or the death of Laena and Laenor Velaryon in the year 120 AC.

Thus Criston Cole is likely not supposed to be a semi-pedophile who started to lust after Rhaenyra the moment he set eyes on 'the Realm's Delight'. And the same goes for Daemon. And nobody groomed anyone there, either. If Daemon/Criston ended up getting the hots for Rhaenyra it would have been because she developed into the most beautiful woman at court.

The book guy still seems to be more sinister, especially since the author never bothered fleshing out whatever good things he may have done. Like Daemon, he comes across as mostly an ass, starting a war, arranging assassinations and pushing for further escalation.

Considering what he did it reads unintentionally funny when he tries to negotiate with the Riverlords and Winter Wolves. As if anyone on Rhaenyra's side would show mercy to this guy after what he pulled.

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Plenty of employers and employees have married/ had sex with each other, including myself and my wife.  Again, it’s daft to call such relationships exploitative.  They may be, but there’s no reason to believe that most are.

It is big difference between the US and most European countries that silliness like companies regulating the private lives of their employees is actually constitutionally forbidden. Your love life and your sexual organs are your own, meaning you can fuck whoever you work with if you are an adult.

If such relationships do interfere with your work or that of your co-workers measures can be taken. But nobody can force you to end a sexual or romantic relationship, much less, of course, a marriage.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Otto has a clear motive to destroy Rhaenyra. Criston Cole does not. Rhaenyra made him a KG, so him reporting on her would be seen as more likely true than false. Folks may even be inclined to believe him even if he told a lie.

This is kind of an interesting condundrum there for the writers since Mr. Crown really acts like a moron there. A good plotter would have used another piece to inform Viserys about what had transpired. And there is an obvious piece right there - Queen Alicent, the one person Viserys could not, you know, fire.

Not to mention the possibility of arranging a larger scandal by leaking the whole thing to the public in a convincing fashion which might eventually force the king to do something about it.

It's kind of funny that VISERYS says that Otto isn't as clever as he thought.

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12 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't understand how anyone can criticise the acting on HotD. Every major actor has knocked it out of the park so far. 

Some people were expecting Daniel Day-Lewis and Laurence Olivier to play every role.

4 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Can someone please explain why there were a bunch of river lords in the Storm Lands?

The river lords' scheme is to send over some their weaker candidates to other parts of the realm so that once Rhaenyra gets to the Riverlands, their real candidates look better by comparison. 

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4 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Can someone please explain why there were a bunch of river lords in the Storm Lands?

They wanted to use houses actually referenced as having been among her suitors, but one of the main lists we get is from a tour of the riverlands. But they have a Storm's End set made that they're otherwise only going to use once this season, and so it was economical to just have it take place there. Why not have it take place in KL? Because they wanted Rhaenyra to be arriving when Daemon is, I suppose. Also, I suppose in a sense having the riverlords show so much interest in Rhaenyra might kind of be their way of trying to nod towards where the riverlands ends up in the conflict. 

Like I've said elsewhere, they have a lot of ground to cover in a short time and so there are shortcuts being taken while still trying to stay faithful to the text. I would probably have made it stormlords heavy or made it more of a mix, but whatever.

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