[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

31 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

You forgot the small clue that the boys' favourite food is coleslaw. 

Also coleslaw is white with other colors mixed in, which is a reference to how Cole sullied his white kingguard cloak by fathering a bastard. Like Macbeth before him, the signs of Cole’s treachery are everywhere he looks.

Edited September 16, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[EggBlue]

feels like if you guys keep going with your..err...proofs , some people will be convinced that Strong-Velaryons are actually Coles!!

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

17 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

feels like if you guys keep going with your..err...proofs , some people will be convinced that Strong-Velaryons are actually Coles!!

I mean, there are only two types of men in Westeros: those who are Coles, and those who wish they were.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I agree with this article’s sentiment. I’m more invested in HOTD, but TROP is so tonally different that it works as a pretty good antidote for HOTD’s nihilism (it would probably be even better if their days were switched, that way you could get dragged down on Friday and lifted back up again on Sunday).

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/tv/2022/9/16/23356715/house-of-the-dragon-rings-of-power-why-not-both

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree with this article’s sentiment. I’m more invested in HOTD, but TROP is so tonally different that it works as a pretty good antidote for HOTD’s nihilism (it would probably be even better if their days were switched, that way you could get dragged down on Friday and lifted back up again on Sunday).

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/tv/2022/9/16/23356715/house-of-the-dragon-rings-of-power-why-not-both

I haven't watched the new RoP episode, and hearing about the pacing reinforces it's role as an insomnia killer for me. 

But as you say, after watching the endless brutality of HotD hearing the Harefoots talk about carrying the left behind members in their hearts and memories makes me laugh with joy. 

Something about the PG humor is relaxing. All we get from HotD is Rhaenyra mocking people, and not in the fun way like Gossip Girl.  

[The Bard of Banefort]

The show wants us to believe that Rhaenyra is afraid of motherhood and dying in childbirth because of what happened to Aemma. That makes sense within the show canon. But the thing is, we know she’s going to have five kids in quick succession after getting married, with an attempt at a sixth. And because of last episode, we know that Rhaenyra is now aware of moon tea. Maybe the argument is just “well, she discovered she loved motherhood after all!” but it makes for a rather disjointed arc. Five children is a lot, especially when she already had an “heir and a spare” after Luke. If she was that afraid of dying in childbirth, she wouldn’t have gotten pregnant after that.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 hours ago, Ran said:

Having seen episode 6, not a chance. They make everything very plain. You’d have to have the attention span of a fruit fly to not understand it.

I certainly hope so. "The seed is cole" doesn't have the same ring to it.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The show wants us to believe that Rhaenyra is afraid of motherhood and dying in childbirth because of what happened to Aemma. That makes sense within the show canon. But the thing is, we know she’s going to have five kids in quick succession after getting married, with an attempt at a sixth.

She mentions her mother in her conversation with Daemon, aye, but the last two episodes have made pretty clear her primary objection is being "sold off" and losing her independence.  That's what she emphasizes in her conversations with Alicent - "imprisoned in a castle" - and even Daemon - "I have no desire to live in fear, only solitude."  It's much more of a Queen Elizabeth (the first one) desire than a fear of childbirth.  And, considering she relents on marrying Laenor as long as Otto is sacked, perhaps she's aware he's gay and she'll still be afforded that independence anyway.

Edited September 17, 2022 by DMC
Fear of childbirth, not motherhood

[RhaenysBee]

So there was a lot I liked here, Alicent and Viserys (both as separate individuals and as a union) are still the most interesting, relatable and fond part of this show for me. I still think there’s a lot of room to enrich them as characters especially Alicent. I would like to see how she experiences motherhood and how she views her children with Viserys.  I think the episodes so far had a good take on how she isn’t in loved with, least of all attracted to the king, but she still cares for him and has genuine warmth toward him. 

I really liked Viserys’s reaction to the report about Rhaenyra and I generally like how he (attempts to) parent her. I like Viserys. 

I kinda like the younger and more playful Jorah-Daenerys dynamic of Rhaenyra and Criston Cole. And I hope they dive into how their relationship evolves. Thus far it seems like Criston Cole is a handsome young man who Rhaenyra enjoys having around, but he’s hardly the forbidden love of her life. I want to see how he feels about Rhaenyra’s using him even though he is genuinely completely in love with her and how this changes their dynamic. 

The episode was shot beautifully. The sets are rich and gorgeous. 

But. 

You need to stop putting lines and messages of gravity into the mouth of a no-name, no-background prop character who had a total of 5 minutes of screen time in four episodes. Much like fetch, you need to stop trying to make Daemon’s paramour/prostitute/lady friend happen. 

Why in the deepest pits of hell would you have a scene of a 10 year old lethally stabbing a grownass man over mild bullying and then walk away with the camera and pretend it never happened? Why? How? What did you wish to accomplish? What was the point? 

Sacking Otto Hightower lacked buildup. This is something someone should have been consistently whispering to Viserys or something he should have gradually realized over small moments (if there were any that I didn’t notice, my mistake).

So Rhaenyra will wed Laenor. When, how, with whose assistance did the sea snake learn about and agree to this idea? Didn’t he want to tug at Viserys’s chain a bit and play hard to get after Laena was passed over? At least have the grace to include a no dialogue scene of Viserys corresponding. 

Rhaenyra is still a brat by the way, she has no respect for anything or anyone though she seems to have toned herself down concerning Alicent. She really really really badly needs to recognize her privilege, which is something Criston Cole, Viserys, Alicent and even Daemon brought to her attention at this point. 

Which brings us to my worst and biggest complaint. King’s Landing is actually a hedonistic carnival by night? Wow. Just wow. Theatre, acrobatics, finger food, wine, dancing, sex dungeons. What else would the small folk be doing in their freedom by night? Not sleeping because they work 18 hours a day to make a living. Not dying or being sick because of an infection they caught one way or the other? Not starving because they are down on coppers and have 8 children? Not getting stabbed because someone wants to rob them of the one copper they do have? (Wasn’t crime a problem in this city just 3 episodes ago?) Naaaah. It’s an R rated frenzy of freedom and fun. Rhaenyra better get a reality check about the freedom of the commoners soon. 

And in a related topic. I want to be generous and assume that depicting the passion and elemental instinct in sex through a brothel scene is an exaggeration for contrast and Rhaenyra is yet to find the healthy approach to sex in later episodes. Still, it’s a choice to awaken her interest in physical intimacy in a setting where people buy it as a service from providers of questionable willingness, who most likely didn’t go down this path in life out of freedom. And no, the way to balance this is not a throwaway line about hard lessons from Daemon’s ladyfriend. 

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by RhaenysBee

[RhaenysBee]

7 hours ago, DMC said:

And, considering she relents on marrying Laenor as long as Otto is sacked, perhaps she's aware he's gay and she'll still be afforded that independence anyway.

B-b-b-but the last time she was in the same shot with Laenor was in episode 1 and he was like 12. How could she possibly know in the premise of the show? And here I was generous enough to think that Rhaenyra agreed because she wanted to right her bad decision.

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

B-b-b-but the last time she was in the same shot with Laenor was in episode 1 and he was like 12. How could she possibly know in the premise of the show? And here I was generous enough to think that Rhaenyra agreed because she wanted to right her bad decision.

Sure, you have to grant the show liberties in this regard -- if that's even how it's going to happen.  Obviously they're speeding up the time machine to get to the Dance. 

Although, in defense, just because she didn't know Laenor was gay at such a young age doesn't mean she wouldn't know he was gay at a markedly older age.  Particularly when those ages gloss over each of their puberties.  The time change giveth, and the time change taketh away.

[RhaenysBee]

10 minutes ago, DMC said:

Sure, you have to grant the show liberties in this regard -- if that's even how it's going to happen.  Obviously they're speeding up the time machine to get to the Dance. 

Although, in defense, just because she didn't know Laenor was gay at such a young age doesn't mean she wouldn't know he was gay at a markedly older age.  Particularly when those ages gloss over each of their puberties.  The time change giveth, and the time change taketh away.

I mean we already glossed over some big character development opportunities to speed through the story (I don’t know what we are speeding toward because I didn’t read whatever the source material was*) and get to wherever we need to get to. I guess we will see if the trade off was worth it. 

*I’m fine with the spoilers, I don’t intend to read Fire and Blood or whatever other story is involved. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by RhaenysBee

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Apparently, a scene where Laena claims Vhagar was also cut at some point. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

I guess we will see if the trade off was worth it. 

Yep, I guess we will.  Educated guess - devotees will think there should have been much more time spent on the lead up period while casual viewers really won't give a shit.  That's the balance the showrunners had to deal with, and it's an unenviable task.  Do I want the former?  Of course!  But I'm not risking my career on it.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The show wants us to believe that Rhaenyra is afraid of motherhood and dying in childbirth because of what happened to Aemma. That makes sense within the show canon. But the thing is, we know she’s going to have five kids in quick succession after getting married, with an attempt at a sixth. And because of last episode, we know that Rhaenyra is now aware of moon tea. Maybe the argument is just “well, she discovered she loved motherhood after all!” but it makes for a rather disjointed arc. Five children is a lot, especially when she already had an “heir and a spare” after Luke. If she was that afraid of dying in childbirth, she wouldn’t have gotten pregnant after that.

That is likely a plotline they should have taken time to deal with ... by not jumping ahead as far as they will. Although more time could easily enough pass in the show.

12 hours ago, DMC said:

She mentions her mother in her conversation with Daemon, aye, but the last two episodes have made pretty clear her primary objection is being "sold off" and losing her independence.  That's what she emphasizes in her conversations with Alicent - "imprisoned in a castle" - and even Daemon - "I have no desire to live in fear, only solitude."  It's much more of a Queen Elizabeth (the first one) desire than a fear of childbirth.  And, considering she relents on marrying Laenor as long as Otto is sacked, perhaps she's aware he's gay and she'll still be afforded that independence anyway.

For me it is kind of a letdown that Rhaenyra apparently has no problem marrying Laenor - who is both a pretty open homosexual and not exactly a martial man or impressive figure in the book. While GoT sucked for turning Renly into somewhat of a gay cliché, making liking womanly stuff (from a modernistic POV) like balls and masquerades, taking away the fact that he was a good and accomplished knight ... HotD also sucks, in my opinion, for not retaining an effeminate and womanish Laenor Velaryon. They could have turned him into a crossdresser, making it mroe than understandable why Rhaenyra wouldn't want to have another woman sitting at her side as prince(ss) consort.

The way things go now it seems they might be an ideal match, agreeing to an open marriage where both can enjoy themselves like they want to. In the book there was the potential that Rhaenyra basically forced Laenor to comply with her demands - since she clearly didn't want to marry him - and/or that Laenor, in the aftermath of the shitshow that killed Joffrey, basically treated this marriage as being nonexistent, returning to Driftmark and only showing up Rhaenyra's side when it was inevitable.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

HotD also sucks, in my opinion, for not retaining an effeminate and womanish Laenor Velaryon. They could have turned him into a crossdresser, making it mroe than understandable why Rhaenyra wouldn't want to have another woman sitting at her side as prince(ss) consort.

I really don't agree with all this.  If they wanted to make Laenor a regular guy that happened to be gay, good for them.  Indeed, that's kind of the impression I get from the books.  BUT, what I do have a problem with is we really have no fucking clue what he is at this point -- he could be exactly what you just said for all we know.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I really don't agree with all this.  If they wanted to make Laenor a regular guy that happened to be gay, good for them.  Indeed, that's kind of the impression I get from the books.  BUT, what I do have a problem with is we really have no fucking clue what he is at this point -- he could be exactly what you just said for all we know.

Laenor in the book is clearly no martial man. He gets his knighthood only as a courtesy a fortnight before his wedding so that the future prince consort has some title. He plays the role of a noble lady at the wedding tourney, granting his favor to his champion and favorite, Joffrey Lonmouth.

Book Laenor clearly isn't the martial guy he was in episode 3 of the show. If he was, book Rhaenyra would have likely not objected to the match so much. Book Rhaenyra clearly has a taste for well-built martial man, as her crushes and relationships with men like Daemon, Criston, and Harwin show.

In the book you really get the impression that the whole 'I eat fish when fish is served' nonsense line is just that ... nonsense. Pushing Rhaenyra and Laenor into this match was a clear mistake. It was a very bad match.

The show could have really depicted that by giving us a martial Laena and Rhaenys on Vhagar and Meleys, respectively, while Laenor remained behind on Driftmark in episode 3 because he had no stomach for war.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Book Laenor clearly isn't the martial guy he was in episode 3 of the show. If he was, book Rhaenyra would have likely not objected to the match so much. Book Rhaenyra clearly has a taste for well-built martial man, as her crushes and relationships with men like Daemon, Criston, and Harwin show.

We'll see how Laenor will be portrayed going forward.

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Laenor in the book is clearly no martial man.

I said I got the impression he was a regular guy, not a "martial man."  Why you're conflating the two is your own business.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:39 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think Alicent takes her position and her duty very seriously, and she thinks that Rhaenyra is flouting all responsibility by behaving the way she has. And in that respect, Alicent is right—we saw just how rude and undiplomatic Rhaenyra was at the beginning of the episode, and earlier at the hunt and when meeting the kingsguard candidates. She has not behaved as a future ruler should. We can criticize Viserys for a lot of things, but I’m sure he probably would have handled all of those situations better when he was her age, so it’s not even a question of double standards in this case.

Rhaenyra definitely subscribes to Daemon's philosophy of "You're the dragon, your word is truth and law". I would even say that she is a female Daemon in a lot of ways.