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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


Ran
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I now have the theory that Rhaenyra possessed Daenerys to get some revenge on those awful Kingslandners for spreading AWFUL GOSSIP.

I do like that Rhaenyra finally showed some skill at the Game of Thrones:

1. Denying everything with bald faced lies told with complete sincerity.

2. Getting Otto's ass thrown out of the Small Council.

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34 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

A very uncharitable and non-romantic reading is that Ser Cole has no interest in Rhaenyra but is a low-born knight who was only given his position due to Rhaenyra's patronage and refusing her advances could get him removed from the Kingsguard (even if he did nothing wrong).

He could have easily gone out there. He was confused at first, for obvious reasons, but he went along with it. He can afford reject her at this point. He has sworn vows, he and Rhaenyra both knew what happened to Saera Targaryen and Lucamore Strong. He could have pulled the 'I'd like to, Princess, but I cannot afford to be caught' card. And that should work veery well, because nothing is less attractive than a man who is afraid to have sex.

Kind of enjoy how they portray those upstart Hightowers as victims. They are so afraid to make a wrong step, so determined to belong ... but they can't. Otto and Alicent both should buy themselves some Valyrian wigs and join the fun. It is not that hard.

I'm kind of at a loss here about Otto's, well, suppressed ambition, I guess. No sign at all that he might gladly tear Rhaenyra down. Although I must say the guy should have at least have the guts to tell Viserys that Aegon is his blood, too, so there is nothing wrong with either of them putting the king's eldest son on the throne. Completely pointless was Otto's silly remark that as Hand he has to keep his source from the king. Well, no, you moron. If the king asks you for your source you point them out ... and if you are a good plotter then they tell him what you want the king to hear and he buys it. If you are a bad plotter then you go to the king with no source at all and you just hope he'll buy anything you say. I guess Tyanna should have also told Maegor 'Trust me on this, my love', and not come to him with many reports backing up her accusation against Alys Harroway.

I did enjoy Viserys' final revelation that he knows and understands very well how the people around him do play him. He is a nice enough guy to let them have what they want most of the time, but he also understands what's going on.

I liked the backstory there about Otto being the guy who taught Viserys being king. You could easily see that happening in the book, with Viserys being at the court of the ailing Jaehaerys and Otto taking Viserys under his wing, taking him to the council sessions, helping him step in for Jaehaerys when he deteriorated more and more.

This bond is also going to help explain why Otto is called back later on. Viserys really trusts the guy. Although, of course, Lyonel Strong will be the much better Hand.

Regarding Alicent I fear we may have seen what the people who already saw the first episode after the time jump said - that the new actresses' portrayal of the characters doesn't really fit all that well with the earlier.

Young Alicent has clearly been just a pawn, and her becoming a player in her own right is still something we have to see.

Edited by Lord Varys
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Yeah that's another thing I forgot to mention.  While Viserys was always going to be defensive/in denial when Otto told him about Rhaenyra's escapades, I really liked how he instantly took the opportunity to get Otto's naked ambition off his chest.  They're making Viserys a much more adept political player than he's presented in the books.

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11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Heh, quite the reference there.  Daemon obviously has more complicated reasons that that though.

Don't see what Daemon would want to get back at Viserys for, in context. He clearly is an awful plotter and he also had no plan at all or else he wouldn't have drunk himself into oblivion (one imagines there was another scene missing there, explaining why he ended up where he was).

The 'marry her to me' stuff seems like something that he came up with in his half-drunk state, fucking with his brother who had him dragged in the throne room.

That was not Daemon's attempt at a grandiose scheme.

Alicent's sex scene with Viserys seems to want to accurately portray the lot of women in pretty much any arranged marriage in this or a similar world. It is basically all marital rape there, even if you 'love' your husband, because you don't have the right to refuse. Especially not if you are married to the king. The way you are brought up there you act and talk like Sansa in Tyrion's marriage bed. I've often said that we should imagine most of the marital sex in Westeros as marital rape, as pretty much most spouses in that world stuck in arranged marriage might detest the idea of sex with their husband (and we see or hear about many such cases - just think of Rohanne Webber's many husbands, or entertain for a moment the notion that Walder Frey's nameless sister actually did enjoy fucking Ambrose Butterwell).

With Alicent there is a broad spectrum there - actual loathing of Viserys' touch and presence to her simply not enjoying sex right now because of the lateness of the hour or her general state of mind or her not wanting to get pregnant again.

(The infant we saw was likely Helaena, no, not Aegon or Aemond.)

While it is great that they finally show and depict how different the lives of noblewomen and noblemen are in this regard ... it would have also helped to accurately depict that there are even more special rules for royal women - especially such who are the next monarch.

Their honor stands and falls not with the opinion of the public or some lords ... but solely with the will of the king. If you have Augustus Jaehaerys for a father, things go bad for you. If you have Viserys for a father, they do not. I think it could have worked better if they had been courageous enough to stress this fact: That there are women and women in this world.

In a sense they have it there with the women being the ones who are the most jealous of the idea of a ruling queen.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't see what Daemon would want to get back at Viserys for, in context. He clearly is an awful plotter and he also had no plan at all or else he wouldn't have drunk himself into oblivion (one imagines there was another scene missing there, explaining why he ended up where he was).

This sounds like it's coming from someone who has no familiarity with self-destructive behavior (which, of course, good for you!).  As for why he would lie to Viserys about fucking Rhaenyra, the show has Alicent explain it in one line.  It's obviously not a "grandiose scheme," no.

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Alicent's sex scene with Viserys seems to want to accurately portray the lot of women in pretty much any arranged marriage in this or a similar world. It is basically all marital rape there, even if you 'love' your husband, because you don't have the right to refuse.

Don't really get how this is still responding to me if it is, but just to be clear, yep, of course.

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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Daemon's plan was to have sex with her and force the king to let them wed.

He got weirded out that Rhaenyra was into it and remembered, "Oh, right, I actually care about my niece."

Didn’t he take her hat just before? I think he wanted to get caught. 

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Alicent is all duty. She doesnt have to play maid to either her husband or her baby not if she still was rich noble and certainly not as the Queen. But she does anyways. She's the paragon of virtue so far. I like to see the same in Queen, respectable and virtueous not those without any dignity or grace like some random Bear island peasant.

Someone has to fill Viserys's head with ideas. He doesnt come up with anything original no spine at all. While he takes big desicion  he's still being manipulated.

Easiest choice would be to marry soiled princess to the one responsible.Lady Rhea & Vale would be glad for divorce with Daemon & his dragon. 

And no lords in the realm will care about Velaryon claim.Like they have made pretty clear in 101. With Laenor not in the least interested and Laena with a titleless foreign husband more so.  If Velaryon cared to launch throne conquest Laenor-Laena would be married in incest match.

 

Edited by Lightoftheast
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28 minutes ago, Lightoftheast said:

Alicent is all duty. She doesnt have to play maid to either her husband or her baby not if she still was rich noble and certainly not as the Queen. But she does anyways. She's the paragon of virtue so far. I like to see the same in Queen, respectable and virtueous not those without any dignity or grace like some random Bear island peasant.

The scheming and conniving Alicent is so eaten up with envy and scorn for Rhaenyra's freedom as well as handsome young suitors, works to undermine her. Sadly, she also sides with her father against her despite the fact Rhaenyra is 100% right he's plotting against her.

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The extended conversations in Valyrian between Rhaenyra and Daemon felt really excessive and pointless. We get it, they're Targaryens. There's no reason for them not to talk in the common tongue when no one else is around.

I agree that the delivery in the scene came off very stilted.  Could have used another take or five to make it come off more natural.  But I like how they're including this aspect, and no, it doesn't have to do with just employing the tongue because other people are around - albeit that is arguably always a good reason to use it considering The Help is always listening, often are informants for others, and presumably don't know Valyrian.

It actually reminds me of a scene from The Crown where Queen Mary speaks to David/Edward VIII in German.  It was a nice touch there too that emphasized both their roots and their elitism that they are NOT like the people they rule.

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12 minutes ago, DMC said:

I agree that the delivery in the scene came off very stilted.  Could have used another take or five to make it come off more natural.  But I like how they're including this aspect, and no, it doesn't have to do with just employing the tongue because other people are around - albeit that is arguably always a good reason to use it considering The Help is always listening, often are informants for others, and presumably don't know Valyrian.

It actually reminds me of a scene from The Crown where Queen Mary speaks to David/Edward VIII in German.  It was a nice touch there too that emphasized both their roots and their elitism that they are NOT like the people they rule.

The best The Crown scene is poor old Harold Wilson having to repeat to the Queen, a filthy limerick that Princess Margaret told LBJ.

”There was a young woman from Dallas/Who enjoyed a dynamite phallus…”

Wilson stops at that point, only for the Queen to say “You’ve come this far”.

“She left her vagina/in North Carolina/And her arsehole in Buckingham Palace.”

 

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The best The Crown scene is poor old Harold Wilson having to repeat to the Queen

Heh, yeah that was a good one.  Their portrayal of LBJ was really fun with Clancy Brown - particularly enjoyed them managing to include his penchant for carrying on professional conversations while he was urinating.  Their portrayal of JFK did not work so much, even though I otherwise love Michael C. Hall.

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I haven't watched it yet . but as I watched little Bloody Ben Blackwood (I think) be  bloody all too soon,  I wanted to express my surprise ! what the hell?! and Rhaenyra needs to learn to be more likeable among her lords, I know it was boring but man.. Aegon III handled that pageant moment better ! 

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Not Ben Blackwood. I'm not sure what it means that they used such a young actor for this Blackwood, who probably isn't Samwell Blackwood either. A nod to Bloody Ben because they know they aren't going to have an 11-year-old lord next season? Maybe. We'll have to see. I'm told that the Lyanna Mormont girl was popular with fans, so maybe they will have him.

The inside the episode is weird because Sapochnik seems alone in assigning the particular motivation of Daemon being on the prowl to have revenge against Viserys, and neither Linda nor I got the feeling that that was what was really going on. I have no idea how long after the fact they film those behind the scenes things, but he also claims 6 years have passed, whereas it's explicitly said that 4 years have passed. So I think maybe he's got a take on the material that isn't necessarily there in the scripts and performances... or maybe I'm ust off on it.

@Corvinus85

Yep, the car on Daemon was s a nice touch since it's something hard to see. I recall somewhere or other there was some behind the scene footage showing the makeup work.

 

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6 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

In real life, Queen Elizabeth has books upon books written about the burns and shit talk she gave all of her suitors.

Rhaenyra rolls her eyes and acts like a moody brat to their faces. Why people watch her and enjoy the character is beyond, Milly Alcock is really starting to get on my nerves. 

Love Alicent, she is the true queen.

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