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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


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6 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

The spy is Mysaria because she's a good source. Damon was gone for 4 years, Otto didn't hire her because of him. And again, no one had a way of knowing Rhaneyra would show up there. Your problem seems to be you apparently think the Dance of the Dragons is a story of the good guys (Blacks) facing the EEEEVIL Greens, and you're mad this show isn't reflecting it.

Thank you for adding a good dose of common sense here. People think Rhaenyra is the 'rightful' qween so she gets to do whatever she wants and no one can criticize her or they get their heads chopped off. 

And I mean in real life, not the show. 

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4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I now have the theory that Rhaenyra possessed Daenerys to get some revenge on those awful Kingslandners for spreading AWFUL GOSSIP.

I do like that Rhaenyra finally showed some skill at the Game of Thrones:

1. Denying everything with bald faced lies told with complete sincerity.

2. Getting Otto's ass thrown out of the Small Council.

When Rhaenyra lies and manipulates her way to power: awesome. 

IF Alicent does the same thing she is a scheming whore. 

Unfair standards. Rhaenyra is no rightful heir, she has to do her due deligiance to earn the throne like any successor, something she has refused to do. This woman is like Commodus, she tearing the realm apart. Viserys should had her executed so she doesn't throw westeros into a war of succession. 

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10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The director made Daemon sound even more sociopathic by saying that he lost interest once he realized she was into it.

In same video Ryan Condal claims that Daemon refuses to go along with it because he knew it wasn't right. So I'd say that this was just Clare Kilner's personal interpretation. I agree that that reading is too sociopathic for Daemon and I both think and hope that the writing do not intend to go that far.

9 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

semi confused on why the white worm is feeding Otto information. 

A possible reading, I guess, is that Daemon asked Mysaria to fed Otto that piece of information. Knowing Viserys well, Daemon could have anticipated that he would be mad at his Hand spying on Rhaenyra for his own gain. And in any case, Daemon wanted Viserys to know what had happened (or more that what had happened) in order to force his hand into allowing their marriage.

But then again, perhaps it's simpler than that and Mysaria is now just angry at Daemon and looking for herself.

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

And I'm sure we all appreciated the very-on-the-nose foreshadowing of Rhaenyra's death.

To be fair, predicting anyone's death on that show doesn't need any extraordinary foresight. :P

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Because Rhaenyra isn't being nice and is demanding equal respect to being a monarch, people are calling her rude and mean.

Because she's not a male character doing it.

But she is rude and mean, isn't she?

I think that any male prince that publicly ridiculed his female suitors and made fun of them would be universally disliked by fandom.

9 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Some of the stuff that didn't work in this episode is because of the weakness of the last two. That never-ending sex scene seemed meant to convince us that Rhaenyra/Cole is a big deal, but I don't care, because the show hasn't put in the work to set it up (minus that weird boar scene last week).

I think it's a good think that the sex scene between Rhaenyra and Cole wasn't "set up". Because that's exactly how it went. Rhaenyra didn't sleep with Cole because there had been sexual tension with him for years, or because he was her soulmate. She just fucked him because he was the closest male available.

Cole is just a one-night stand.

Edited by The hairy bear
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Daemon is absolutely crazy , but to my own surprise , my least favorite character in E4 was Viserys I !  my most favorite?! .... believe it or not ser Christon Cole !

Daemon: I liked how they started with Daemon , I liked his conversation with Rhaenyra , taking her to the city .... when she was running and he was going after her , they were like a normal uncle and niece ! I didn't even mind the brothel scene until he started kissing her and WORSE , left her alone , confused and half-naked right there . if there is one guy who is nuts at this point , it's Daemon . poor Laena and Rhaenyra for ever having to endure him.

Rhaenyra : admittedly, I was disappointed . I figure the opening courting scene was supposed to be reminisced of Realm's Delight progress .  there was a duel, just as there was a duel in F&B . but difference is that lowborn knights and common folk would later pick up sword for her , which gave me the impression that she was actually a likeable princess in the book. 

ser Christon Cole : man , changing ages does wonders ! lol ! this guy is a completey different man from the pervert who watched a 7 year old grow up into 16, sleep with her and take revenge for the break up! his sex scene with Rhaenyra was actually sweet . yes , there was power imbalance which will be there in almost any relationship princess of Dragonstone would have . but though it started not so great , they made it clear (especially with cloak scene) that it was consensual . furthermore , although the whole thing was sullied with Daemon creep Targaryen's previous scene , the morning scene with Rhaenyra seeing Cole again was smart . she may not love Cole but she certainly comes off as a high schooler  who has sex for the first time with a crush . I also liked that they added their little conversations and exchanged looks in these two episodes to show they are actually close.

Alicent : her scenes broke my heart . I loved everyone of her scenes with Rhaenyra . I also liked the contrast drawn between her life as the Queen and Rhaenyra's life. 

Otto : I was surprised to see him so conflicted in reporting to Viserys . was he conflicted because he is still reluctant to move against Rhaenyra? did he fear King's reaction? ... another point regarding Otto is that we needed to see him push Viserys to name Aegon as his heir. right now, he hasn't done that much to deserve to be sacked . I think , the fact that both Rhaenyra and Viserys see through Otto's ambition is a writing mistake . Otto has done nothing but suggesting a marriage proposal and discussing inheritance in PRIVATE with his daughter . Rhaenyra , in particular , doesn't have much reason to doubt Otto . I mean , she does but we are hardly shown that.

Viserys: this guy was my least favorite guy in the episode . he is not exactly polite to his wife at the party , he ignores his daughter . well maybe the list doesn't exactly go on and on but I just didn't like Viserys this episode , all right?

maybe it's due to his marriage . In my watching experience , most period dramas get to one side of spectrum in arranged marriage : they are either in love and power imbalance is ignored because *love conquers all* or the wife hates the husband  .  here they have gotten it just right . Viserys may not be a bad guy , but he takes what he sees as his right as husband and king and Alicent , although seems more or less content in their companionship , lies like a dead woman during sex with an older sickly guy (king or not) and feels imprisoned in her marriage where her role is reduced to heir producer. she may come to fully hate Viserys and Otto later on , but right now it's much more complicated than that . it blames the customs rather than just Viserys and Otto , which I appreciate .

ed. actually Medici was good in depicting arranged marriages . but again , Medici men were all handsome and experienced and their wives at least enjoyed the sex .


P.S. for all those who were after comedic relief : "he called me a boy"! .... boy they ruined the sweet uncle /niece scene by the Daemon creep scene ! I was hoping we don't see Daemon and Rhaenyra together until she becomes .. Emma D'Arcy!



Edited by EggBlue
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Another good episode, with some missteps, but doing a good work in setting up what's to come.

Good things:

  • I like how they are showing the passage of time, not only by throwaway lines from the characters, but also for the changes in dressing choices or, as in Daemon's case, haircuts. They've done an incredible job in showing Alicent's transition from a teenager to a mother of two.
  • It's also cool how Rhaenyra now has her own chair at the Council Room.
  • Good work in showing how Alicent is not happy with her lot. She looks suitably offended when Viserys laughs at her for suggesting a tapestry tour for Daemon, and the dead look on her face while making love says it all.
  • Lots of casual foreshadowing, such as when Rhaenyra says that the thoughts of the commoners are "of no consequence". 

Things I didn't like:

  • A pity that the opening credits weren't updated with Helaena's birth. I'm sure most casual viewers still haven't grasped what the blood flows are supposed to represent, and they want the concept to work they need to start giving us updated information with different perspectives, hopefully with clearer looks this time.
  • The opening at Storm's End was a nice idea, but it didn't entirely work for me. I think they are making Rhaenyra far too petulant and politically unaware, which is fine for a 14 year girl, but I think it's a bit too much now that she's supposed to be an 18 year old woman. Also, the selection of bachelors were a little weird: Dondarrions and Swann were fine, but why did they placed so many people from the Riverlands that could travel much more easily to King's Landing to visit the Realm's Delight. There was a Blackwood, a Bracken, a Frey, a Mooton, a Strong and a Mudd. The last two are particularly mind-boggling. Lyonel Strong would have direct access to the King to introduce him any candidate from his family, and house Mudd is supposed to be exctinct.
  • And that's a failure from the books more than the show, but having the Princess look for a husband in Storm's End makes it even more blatant: why wasn't Borros never considered as a potential match?
  • The scenes at the brothel felt ethereal and disconnected. They didn't really work for me. And I don't' buy that either Rhaenyra or Daemon would have sex in a room full of other people. They are not that stupid.
  • In general, I'm not very happy with the show's interpretation of Daemon. They are overplaying his outrageous nature while not giving him enough redeeming features.

Random thoughts:

  • Alyssa from the show seems to have outlived her book version. Viserys claims that Daemon was her favourit because he was a "warrior", but according to Fire and Blood she died when Daemon was just 3.
  • When the kingsguard deliver Daemon to the king, I think it would have been nice that a couple of them had remained in the background as they usually do, and one of them had been Cole. That way, he would have "learned" that Rhaenyra went to him after having fucked Daemon. I don't know how or when they plan to have the rift between Rhaenyra and Cole, but I'd do it asap.
Edited by The hairy bear
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Rhaenyra became Arya for a day... was fun to see that. Miri is such a strong character from Memory, Sorrow, Thorn that a lot of her survives after being reinterpreted in a book and two shows. Hoped to see her interacting with the common folk, that was a missed opportunity in previous episodes that they did show in this one also.  

Viserys and Daemon hugging was soo cool. Daemon clearly had a plan that he could only partially complete. 

11 hours ago, RumHam said:

Did they put the episode up early? I went on at 8:56 and was surprised it was already up. 

Yeah this is a little strange. So, there is just an image about ten minutes before it airs, then it starts streaming in real-time like a live broadcast, and then about thirty minutes later, the whole episode becomes available and you can scrub ahead. I am using Hotstar though. 

6 hours ago, DMC said:

Yeah that's another thing I forgot to mention.  While Viserys was always going to be defensive/in denial when Otto told him about Rhaenyra's escapades, I really liked how he instantly took the opportunity to get Otto's naked ambition off his chest.  They're making Viserys a much more adept political player than he's presented in the books.

Yes! I am liking him more and more with every episode. He genuinely seems like a good king, and the way he handles everyone around him by being honest all the time is fun to watch. 

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So the previous episode Rhaenyra spent the whole night in the woods with only the new hot Kingsguard member which she personally selected for the job and nobody  seemed to care and it didn't seem to lead to any gossip, but in this episode everyone is "You would be ruined if there are rumors that you are not a maiden anymore". Quite inconsistent. 

Some good moments in this episode, but also some pretty terrible ones. The opening scene looked exactly like it has come from Season 8 of GOT, it was that bad. 

Alicent's scenes were good and she quickly becoming my favourite character because she seema to be the only main character who behaves consistently and doesn't act like a petulant idiot half the time (unlike Daemon and Rhaenyra, for example).  

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This is my favorite comment from Twitter: 

It's the first epi of the series I didn't like. It was gratuitous, boring, and too scattered. Plus Rhaenyra is a liar and she was supposed to be the heroine. 

I love seeing the Rhaenyra stans crumble. Their rightful queen who thinks the peasants are trash that don't matter and that she gets to screw whoever she wants is going to be burned alive by a dragon. 

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That's the name that someone who worked on the show indicated he had, re: Blackwood 

People getting wound up about Rhaenyra misleading Alicent and her father are of course echoing the oppressive patriarchical power structures of Westeros that would force her to tell a lie because her hypocrite father measures what she's permitted to do by her lack of a penis., Check your privilege, yo.

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It is interesting to compare the protagonists from this show and RoP. Both are flawed, impulsive characters, but I find that one works and the other does not.

For Rhaenyra her impulsivity and selfishness tends to create many problems. She chafes against the expectations of duty, and has pretty poor judgment, such as her adventure in the city with her uncle, and sleeping with Cole (coercing him to break his vows). At the same time, that same impulsivity and selfishness did defuse the confrontation in episode 2 between Otto and Daemon. It's a consistent character trait of hers that can be a boon and a vice based on circumstances, and I think that is good writing.

Galadriel too is a character who is impulsive and selfish, and shares common features with Rhaenyra. They are both extremely entitled, and allow this to largely motivate their characters. With Galadriel it feels off, because it's intended as a part of an arc to bridge her current character with the LotR character. Grafting a bildungsroman onto a character several millennia old just comes off as peculiar to me, and makes Galadriel really hard to enjoy. She seems much more foolish because of this.

Also, the narrative does not seem to endorse Rhaenyra. There are consequences for her reckless actions. Whereas the audience knows Galadriel ultimately is in the right, and is consistently rewarded for her behavior.

RoP spoilers


For example, Galadriel's first inclination when confronted by the Numenor who rescued her is to threaten and try to bully them. The ultimate result is she is led to a key confirmation of Sauron's presence and where he is located, because he apparently is careless enough to openly broadcast this to everyone.


47 minutes ago, David Selig said:

So the previous episode Rhaenyra spent the whole night in the woods with only the new hot Kingsguard member which she personally selected for the job and nobody  seemed to care and it didn't seem to lead to any gossip, but in this episode everyone is "You would be ruined if there are rumors that you are not a maiden anymore". Quite inconsistent. 

I think the default expectation is that Kingsguard hold to their oaths. And Cole is known to be an honorable sort. And Rhaenyra's rashness is well known at this point.

It's sort of like if a priest of yore (vague period of the 16th-17th century) were to accompany a young lady for protection it probably wouldn't cause a scandal.


Edited by IFR
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13 minutes ago, Ran said:

Check your privilege, yo.

Nah, a woman sleeping around allows people to question the legitimacy of the child, men don't have to deal with that. 

Also, she sucks. Just because other men suck doesn't mean I have to celebrate Rhaenyra replicating their behavior. Being mean, selfish, and power hungry isn't worth celebrating. 

She treats the nobility like garbage rolling her eyes like a brat, she thinks the peasants don't matter and are just trash, she thinks the throne is hers but she has no sense of responsibility.  

She deserves everything she is going to get. 


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