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[Spoilers] Episode 104 Discussion


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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

This is my favorite comment from Twitter: 

It's the first epi of the series I didn't like. It was gratuitous, boring, and too scattered. Plus Rhaenyra is a liar and she was supposed to be the heroine. 

I love seeing the Rhaenyra stans crumble. Their rightful queen who thinks the peasants are trash that don't matter and that she gets to screw whoever she wants is going to be burned alive by a dragon. 

If anything, this latest episode exploded the #nyra fandom. Going by social media reactions and trends.

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5 minutes ago, Sand11751 said:

Which is why it's a bit ridiculous that Rhaenyra spent an entire night with a kingsguard alone in the woods and no one makes any stink about that the next morning when they show up. But, you know, the plot.

Not really a plot problem. 

she took off and it was his job to go find her. 

He, sir Criston was doing his duty and there was no reason for anyone to question that.  besides, they also came back with the boar.

Daemon on the other hand, was already disliked and there was actual evidence they were doing what was reported. 

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I believe the show is setting up the Dance quite nicely so far. The motivations and ambitions of all the characters seem to be really well portrayed. The non-book viewer will probably understand the reasons behind the civil war, which is important considering how complex the Dance is, and we still have to meet some of the most relevant characters like Aegon or Aemond, but seeing these fisrt 4 episodes give me confidence they will get them right.

That's all I asked for season 1. To set up things as well as they could, and they are doing a good job so far. There are some minor changes I would have made, and I don't really like the aging or de-aging of some of the characters (like Alicent or Rhaneyra), but I think it's been really good. 

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I believe the show is setting up the Dance quite nicely so far. The motivations and ambitions of all the characters seem to be really well portrayed. The non-book viewer will probably understand the reasons behind the civil war, which is important considering how complex the Dance is, and we still have to meet some of the most relevant characters like Aegon or Aemond, but seeing these fisrt 4 episodes give me confidence they will get them right.

That's all I asked for season 1. To set up things as well as they could, and they are doing a good job so far. There are some minor changes I would have made, and I don't really like the aging or de-aging of some of the characters (like Alicent or Rhaneyra), but I think it's been really good. 

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<_<<_<<_<

I just watched the trailer . why is the wedding so fucking bloody ? can someone tell them that not every episode has to be dark and grim?  I mean , yeah , there's a death there but in a TOURNEMENT! not in the party! what the hell? and what on earth can trigger that? AND where is VHAEGAR?

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Daemon had a plan, he draws Rhaenyra out of the castle, possibly tries to scare her in a strange place, made her ditch her disguise in the 'bowels of the brothel' or whatever they called it, and then... could not get it on as Rhaenyra was into it. In either case, till that point, if everything went well, he would have more backing for marrying Rhaenyra... apart from keeping power in the family. 

IDK if Mysaria did what she did on her own to consolidate her position, or working with Daemon on his plan. Either way, Mysaria gets what she wants irrespective of Daemon's schemes, and Daemon gets what he wants as only the rumour that he bedded Rhaenyra is sufficient for his plan. 

Otto then did his due diligence in checking with the staff of the castle. It is still a secret at this point of time... the whispers have not spread to the common folk, the other people in the castle are not talking about it. Word may eventually get out, but right now, it is only Otto, Mysaria, the kiddo spy, Alicent, Viserys and Rhaenyra who are talking about what happened between Daemon and Rhaenyra. Maybe a couple of patrons who recognized the princess in the Brothel.  

So the princess went gallivanting in the woods with the kingsguard... it really will not lead to wagging tongues, there has to be some direction and reason why such rumours and whispers have to spread, and the one person who went about making sure that would happen is Daemon. 

No one would stand to benefit from alleging Cole and Rhaenyra had a thing, and people cannot go around making these unfounded allegations, as it is treason. 

Additionally, no one really lies here. Even Otto does not say 'Daemon fucked Rhaenyra', he says something along the lines of 'Rhaenyra is no longer a maiden'. Rhaenyra assures Alicent that nothing happened with Daemon, but Viserys is shown to be far more astute in this episode. He accepts Rhaenyra's version that nothing happened with Daemon, clarifies to her that perceptions are important, then has his maester send her the plan B tea anyway, demonstrating that he has a good idea of what is going on. 

Edited by slant
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2 hours ago, IFR said:

I think the default expectation is that Kingsguard hold to their oaths. And Cole is known to be an honorable sort. And Rhaenyra's rashness is well known at this point.

It's sort of like if a priest of yore (vague period of the 16th-17th century) were to accompany a young lady for protection it probably wouldn't cause a scandal.

If a young and very handsome priest who swore vows only a few years ago had spent the night alone in the woods with a beautiful princess there definitely would have been plenty of gossip. And I don't recall Cole being noted to be particularly honorable in the show.

Vows are vows, but people in Westeros, just like in pretty much every society in Earth, know that they aren't perfect. And it really stretches credibility that only there was no gossip whatsoever after the episode in the woods, but Cole was left all alone to guard the princess's room at night, with no other guards or servants in sight.

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Very cool introduction to Bloody Ben. I have to admit I'm really enjoying this show so far, especially the relationship between R and V and that bad uncle D. I like the way they did the whole Cole thing. One of the things I wondered about the show was would we see Mushroom capering in corners or otherwise witnessing some of the events that he reports in his telling. So far there's no Mushroom whatsoever. I wonder if we'll ever meet the author of the book written in his name or get some explanation.  I find Otto Hightower to be less offensive than I thought I would, I really like the way he's portrayed. The same can be said for Alicent. It was funny to hear R's little joke about babies in front of Aegon. Keep your voice down girl, he's going to feed you to his dragon some day.

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9 hours ago, DMC said:

This sounds like it's coming from someone who has no familiarity with self-destructive behavior (which, of course, good for you!).  As for why he would lie to Viserys about fucking Rhaenyra, the show has Alicent explain it in one line.  It's obviously not a "grandiose scheme," no.

Oh, him lying about fucking her I understand. The point was more that I don't think Daemon planned that somebody would feed this information to Viserys so he could make a play for Rhaenyra's hand.

In general, when it doesn't look I'm still responding I most likely no longer am ;-).

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5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

 

I think it's a good think that the sex scene between Rhaenyra and Cole wasn't "set up". Because that's exactly how it went. Rhaenyra didn't sleep with Cole because there had been sexual tension with him for years, or because he was her soulmate. She just fucked him because he was the closest male available.

Cole is just a one-night stand.

I understood, as a viewer, that Daemon got her all 'revved' up then backed away.  [I still am not certain why.]  But Rh, ready to play, went and found the first suitable replacement she could have her way with. 

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40 minutes ago, David Selig said:

If a young and very handsome priest who swore vows only a few years ago had spent the night alone in the woods with a beautiful princess there definitely would have been plenty of gossip. And I don't recall Cole being noted to be particularly honorable in the show.

They returned covered in blood from a boar attack. I think that would certainly count against such discourse.

One could say that there should have been more concern for the safety of Rhaenyra, since she had been absent for an entire night, but I think it's been established well enough that she is wild and does this sort of thing often (no doubt more than most would with this personality type, since her adventurism is aided by having a dragon).

And if the Kingsguard can't be trusted around women, what's the point of having them? Sure, the mindset would be that a typical male cannot control their behavior, but the citizens of this time take holy vows seriously enough that it means something.

At any rate, I don't buy that it's reasonable to assume that this situation must have provoked gossip. I think that the show has established enough ground (everyone accustomed to Rhaenyra's adventurism, the Kingsguard's having made oaths, etc) for the scene to work.

Your miles may vary and you might disagree and still think it's inconsistency, but I don't find that to be a strong or obvious conclusion.

Edited by IFR
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5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In same video Ryan Condal claims that Daemon refuses to go along with it because he knew it wasn't right. So I'd say that this was just Clare Kilner's personal interpretation. I agree that that reading is too sociopathic for Daemon and I both think and hope that the writing do not intend to go that far.

I'd imagine the best take on the whole thing is that Daemon just wanted to show Rhaenyra how you could also have sex as a royal ... but he wasn't thinking things through regarding how different things are for women and where exactly this could lead him and Rhaenyra.

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

A possible reading, I guess, is that Daemon asked Mysaria to fed Otto that piece of information. Knowing Viserys well, Daemon could have anticipated that he would be mad at his Hand spying on Rhaenyra for his own gain. And in any case, Daemon wanted Viserys to know what had happened (or more that what had happened) in order to force his hand into allowing their marriage.

But then again, perhaps it's simpler than that and Mysaria is now just angry at Daemon and looking for herself.

The obvious answer there is that Mysaria no longer gives a fig for Daemon and, more or less, vice versa. She is an information broker now and Otto is paying her. Daemon was gone and didn't even know that Mysaria is no longer a whore.

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But she is rude and mean, isn't she?

I think that any male prince that publicly ridiculed his female suitors and made fun of them would be universally disliked by fandom.

A woman as old as this Dondarrion chap would never dare present herself as a potential bride to a royal prince. After all, the wife must still have theoretically be able to bear children. But if one did, it would most definitely invite ridicule.

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I think it's a good think that the sex scene between Rhaenyra and Cole wasn't "set up". Because that's exactly how it went. Rhaenyra didn't sleep with Cole because there had been sexual tension with him for years, or because he was her soulmate. She just fucked him because he was the closest male available.

Cole is just a one-night stand.

There was some small tension there, but no actual romance. Criston will be furious because from his perspective the little whore tricked him into breaking his vows ... which he truly wanted to keep. This is why I think the scene works so well as a silent scene. There is some unreality to it. It could all just have been a dream - and to Rhaenyra it most likely kind of is. But for Cole the breaking of his vows cannot be just some spur-of-the-moment thing. It must have a deeper meaning. The princess must love him very much, must want to marry him ... or else he shouldn't have done that.

I don't think the whole 'power imbalance' thing is something one should stress there. The guy might work for Rhaenyra and her family in a sense, but he is also a man of chivalric order sworn to celibacy and those rules are enforced by the Crown. Just as promiscuity in a princess has been punished quite severely in the case of Princess Saera. Rhaenyra could, of course, have tried to push or blackmail Criston into having sex with her ... but there was nothing of that sort there. It was a seduction, plain and simple, and the guy had every chance to stop the whole thing.

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Otto : I was surprised to see him so conflicted in reporting to Viserys . was he conflicted because he is still reluctant to move against Rhaenyra? did he fear King's reaction? ... another point regarding Otto is that we needed to see him push Viserys to name Aegon as his heir. right now, he hasn't done that much to deserve to be sacked . I think , the fact that both Rhaenyra and Viserys see through Otto's ambition is a writing mistake . Otto has done nothing but suggesting a marriage proposal and discussing inheritance in PRIVATE with his daughter . Rhaenyra , in particular , doesn't have much reason to doubt Otto . I mean , she does but we are hardly shown that.

It might be that Otto is actually not all that ambitious for himself. His brother pushed the Aegon agenda last episode, and Otto might not actually disguise his own ambition as 'concern for the Realm'. He might honestly think that Queen Rhaenyra is going to mean civil war. Which I think the show plans to set up as irony (sort of like Otto installing Rhaenyra as heir earlier) since it is actually going to be King Aegon II's ascension which means civil war, not Rhaenyra's. And that can only work because there are lots and lots of people who support Rhaenyra's claim.

The impression the show is creating at this point is more that Rhaenyra will rise to the throne and then folks won't accept that. But it will actually be the reverse.

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Viserys: this guy was my least favorite guy in the episode . he is not exactly polite to his wife at the party , he ignores his daughter . well maybe the list doesn't exactly go on and on but I just didn't like Viserys this episode , all right?

I think there we get another missing episode. Rhaenyra ended the suitor tour early and we she talks to Cole about how this is going to anger her father. One imagines he dressed her down after her return, possibly even at that council scene we get, and then he enjoys his time with his brother later at the feast, at the expense of the other royal family.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

<_<<_<<_<

I just watched the trailer . why is the wedding so fucking bloody ? can someone tell them that not every episode has to be dark and grim?  I mean , yeah , there's a death there but in a TOURNEMENT! not in the party! what the hell? and what on earth can trigger that? AND where is VHAEGAR?

Are you not entertained by High Lords murdering each other right and left for no reason at all every single episode?
This is very thought provoking and deep you know. It's definitely not dumb, cheap, stupid and doesn't ruin the world building and any sense of internal logic in that universe. ;)

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

@Zorral

Apologies on the non-spoiler thread. I have fixed it. I made it rather late last night and messed up a setting.

 

Thanks. Ah, I assumed oversight not slight. :)  So I will remove my post here and put it there.

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12 hours ago, zajaz said:

The writers said that he could not go further because deep down he knew that what he was doing was wrong.

The after show said straight out it was impotence.  He is impotent.  We already saw him be so in the first episode.

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