spoilers [Spoilers] Rings of Power: Adar, can you hear me?

[williamjm]

6 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

Dumb question: Are we sure all the storylines are running concurrently?

Because he's been watching Westword, my brother asked me if there was any proof the Harfoots, Southlands with Arondir, and Galadrial/Elrod/Halbrand storylines are all contemporary with each other?  I started to say "of course" but then realized I wasn't sure.

Was there a commonality (like a comet) that level set the timelines with each other?

When we initially see the meteor falling both Arondir and the Harfoots (and some Ents) see it. The way the scene is edited implies that it is concurrent with Galadriel going for a swim, although she doesn't see the meteor so it could potentially be misleading although I don't think it is likely to be.

[Cashless Society]

5 hours ago, williamjm said:

When we initially see the meteor falling both Arondir and the Harfoots (and some Ents) see it. The way the scene is edited implies that it is concurrent with Galadriel going for a swim, although she doesn't see the meteor so it could potentially be misleading although I don't think it is likely to be.

Gil-galad, Elrond and Celebrimbor also see it, and their storyline is the episode is tied to Galadriel's. So all storylines are occurring concurrently. 

[slant]

Halbrand is a link between Galadriel and Southlands, his people were driven away by the orc horde. 

Gil-galad is another link, one between the Galadriel and Elrond in Lindon and Arondir in the Southlands. 

Then, I think the two hunters can be a link between Southlands and Harfoots, they are moving away from wolves and no game. At least one of them is a bit jittery. 

There are other small cues, such as the transitions between scenes placing them on the map. Right now, think that the appearance of Meteor Man, the leaf decaying in Gil-Galad's hand, Galadriel jumping into the sea and Arondir getting captured all happened at the same time. 

So yea, Meteor Man or Halbrand cannot be Sauron, but Adar can. 

Which reminds me, another reason that Meteor Man could be Gandalf, is that Meteor Man appears just as he would be if struck down by a Balrog 

[slant]

11 hours ago, williamjm said:

When we initially see the meteor falling both Arondir and the Harfoots (and some Ents) see it. The way the scene is edited implies that it is concurrent with Galadriel going for a swim, although she doesn't see the meteor so it could potentially be misleading although I don't think it is likely to be.

This is a Jackpot! The Red Comet's trajectory can kind of be traced, it flies at a high altitude over Gil-Galad and Elrond in Lindon. Then some time later, much closer to the ground, Arondir in the Southlands, over the ent, then to the Hobbits in Rhovanion.

Galadriel, Numenoreans and Dwarves do not see it. 

Also shows how Halbrand or Adar cannot be Meteor Man. 

[Werthead]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:39 AM, Ser Drewy said:

From what I remember the Trilogy's prologue was an on-and-off idea throughout the production until New Line put their boots down and demanded one. I think it does a decent job giving background for the story. I actually remember thinking the problem with Fellowship was we seem to be constantly repeating the same bits of exposition in the first hour. We get a 10 minute prologue, then we have Gandalf running around researching lore (that we already know), then he explains it all to Frodo. As I understand, the version we got was a combination of several openings they experimented with which might explain its (IMO) repetitiveness in that regard. 

No, the prologue was always in the film and "getting" the prologue right was the first thing Philippa Boyens did when the joined the project early on. I don't think New Line ever put their foot down on it as such, as both they and Jackson agreed you needed to start the film almost James Bond fashion with a bang showing the scale and scope of the world, instead of spending an hour with just hobbits. Plus they needed to tie in Bilbo and the events of The Hobbit (from the "Concerning Hobbits" intro), so it was reasonable to expand that out to bring in Sauron and the Ring as well.

On 9/12/2022 at 12:05 PM, DMC said:

I'm familiar with Saul Zaentz's company owning the rights, but weren't they licensed to New Line, at least for Jackson's films?  Or has that run out already?

So the SZC bought the rights and then licensed the rights to New Line (later bought by Warner Brothers) to make the Jackson movies. The SZC remained the rights-holders and got a percentage of the film profits. Embracer has now taken over that role as the rights-holders.

The licence to New Line/WB required them to get new films in production every x number of years and if they did not, the rights would revert to the SZC (now Embracer). However, New Line/WB would obviously continue to own the existing films and all the designs etc from them.

Amazon struck a deal with New Line/WB early on which has allowed them to use the New Line versions of Sauron and the Balrog.

MGM's involvement is that they had distribution and I believe some production rights to The Hobbit (and they owned those rights outright, not licensed them) but the SZC had some of the other production rights, so MGM had to work alongside New Line/WB to make the Hobbit trilogy. Amazon now owns MGM and those rights.

18 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I didn't know Orcs knew cartography. 

The way the TV show presents it is silly, but I think it's fairly obvious that the orcs need to be somewhat more intelligent than perhaps people perceive them to be. They forge their weapons and armour, they know how to fight, they have a basic grasp of tactics, they even generals and leaders who are at least half-effective, they have to grow and make food otherwise their vast hordes would be dead by now etc. Knowing how to read and make maps should be well within their purview.

[Farerb]

What if Theo is Halbrand's child? We know that Halbrand is from the Southlands and that Bronwyn is a single mother.

Moreover, we know that there's a theory that Halbrand is Sauron, so what if Theo is actually Sauron's child? And that's the reason why his blood restored the sword because he shares the same blood as Sauron!!!

 

What do you think?

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, slant said:

Also shows how Halbrand or Adar cannot be Meteor Man. 

Why?

[Corvinus85]

While all the main characters except Galadriel witness the meteor at roughly the same time, and that is again weird because if it lands somewhere in Rhovanion, not sure how it passes over the Southlands, there are some implied differences in timelines. 

It takes time for Galadriel to travel to Numenor, especially if she was much further north. Also, it takes time for Elrond to travel to Eregion and then Moria. Unless the timeline of these two characters started before the others, and the meteor was the way for the show to unite the timelines. Because in Arondir's case, it surely has been a few days at most. Same for the Harfoots.

[Werthead]

27 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Why?

Middle-earth in the books does not have teleportation. However...

18 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

While all the main characters except Galadriel witness the meteor at roughly the same time, and that is again weird because if it lands somewhere in Rhovanion, not sure how it passes over the Southlands, there are some implied differences in timelines. 

It takes time for Galadriel to travel to Numenor, especially if she was much further north. Also, it takes time for Elrond to travel to Eregion and then Moria. Unless the timeline of these two characters started before the others, and the meteor was the way for the show to unite the timelines. Because in Arondir's case, it surely has been a few days at most. Same for the Harfoots.

TV shows and movies are really, really rubbish at showing time passing. Even the PJ movies were like this (the long gruelling journey of the Fellowship whilst Elrond just teleports from Rivendell to Dunharrow and back again).

[slant]

23 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Why?

Okay, Galadriel is in the sea, and will meet Halbrand. Annatar cannot be in Rhovanion and west of Numenor at the same time. When Halbrand is being held prisoner, he cannot be whoever Adar is, because we see Adar walking towards the camera, he is not some unknown figure acting remotely from Numenor. Meteor Man cannot be Adar because he is actually pretty close to Adar, a bit to the north. If anything, if Meteor Man is going to take on Adar and his bosses, he is right where he needs to be. Unless Meteor Man is hopping between Southlands and Rhovanion, and changing disguises, controlling the orcs, while attempting to beguile harfoots. breaking ankles and killing fireflies. 

So, Adar, Halbrand and Meteor Man are three different people. IF anyone of these has to be Sauron, then Adar is the closest fit. 

In any case, the one place we should be looking for Annatar are none of these. I think he should not be in Lindon, or Numenor, or Rhovanion, or the Southlands. He should be in Eregion, with Celebrimbor. Halbrand does try to be a smith, so there is that. So second best option among three is Sauron can be Halbrand if not Adar. 

Meteor Man being Sauron is kind of hard to explain. 

[Slurktan]

20 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Middle-earth in the books does not have teleportation. However...

Maia can turn into spirit form go where they want and then becomes flesh again. So yes. It kind of does.

Sauron doesn't do this in the third age because he no longer can. He has no restrictions at this point.

[Corvinus85]

Just now, Slurktan said:

Maia can turn into spirit form go where they want and then becomes flesh again. So yes. It kind of does.

Sauron doesn't do this in the third age because he no longer can. He has no restrictions at this point.

There is a difference between turning into a flying spirit and teleportation.

[Corvinus85]

Halbrand is not Sauron. Yes, he wanted to join the smiths guild in Numenor because apparently he has an interest in smithing. So what? Sauron doesn't have an interest in smithing, he has an interest in extending his power through objects of power. That is why he went to the Elves. They still remain the best smiths when in comes to creating magical object. Numenoreans are not at the peak of the smithing world. And the best he could do was to badly steal an insignia? Ha.

And why would Sauron place himself on a ship bound for who knows where with people fleeing the Southlands? In The Silmarillon Sauron allows himself to be captured by Numenor, but first he challenges them militarily, he doesn't contrive a plan that would involve a bunch of coincidences. 

Let us assume that the writers, for all their faults, know the lore well. (I am skeptical because of the Mordor symbol backup plan silliness) They may not be able to use stuff from what they don't have the rights to, but they can ensure the spirit of those stories exist in the show. So with that in mind, I don't see Sauron putting himself in the power of Ulmo, the lord of the seas. My theory is that those refugees with Halbrand desperately wanted to leave Middle-earth and were stupid enough to think they could cross the ocean. The sea monster was Ulmo's way of punishing them for that intent.

[Slurktan]

3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Halbrand is not Sauron. Yes, he wanted to join the smiths guild in Numenor because apparently he has an interest in smithing. So what? Sauron doesn't have an interest in smithing, he has an interest in extending his power through objects of power. That is why he went to the Elves. They still remain the best smiths when in comes to creating magical object. Numenoreans are not at the peak of the smithing world. And the best he could do was to badly steal an insignia? Ha.

And why would Sauron place himself on a ship bound for who knows where with people fleeing the Southlands? In The Silmarillon Sauron allows himself to be captured by Numenor, but first he challenges them militarily, he doesn't contrive a plan that would involve a bunch of coincidences. 

Let us assume that the writers, for all their faults, know the lore well. (I am skeptical because of the Mordor symbol backup plan silliness) They may not be able to use stuff from what they don't have the rights to, but they can ensure the spirit of those stories exist in the show. So with that in mind, I don't see Sauron putting himself in the power of Ulmo, the lord of the seas. My theory is that those refugees with Halbrand desperately wanted to leave Middle-earth and were stupid enough to think they could cross the ocean. The sea monster was Ulmo's way of punishing them for that intent.

Ulmo doesn't do that. Osse does.

[Werthead]

20 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Maia can turn into spirit form go where they want and then becomes flesh again. So yes. It kind of does.

Sauron doesn't do this in the third age because he no longer can. He has no restrictions at this point.

They can in Valinor, I don't think there's a strong indication they can in Middle-earth. One would assume they'd have used that power a lot more often than they would have done. Sauron could shapeshift (at least in the First Age, not later on), but we don't seem him turning into a ghost to, for example, avoid being defeated by Huan or Eonwe during the War of Wrath.

[Slurktan]

20 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

There is a difference between turning into a flying spirit and teleportation.

Given that spirits can fly to valinor and back in a day or two, not much difference.

[Slurktan]

6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

They can in Valinor, I don't think there's a strong indication they can in Middle-earth. One would assume they'd have used that power a lot more often than they would have done. Sauron could shapeshift (at least in the First Age, not later on), but we don't seem him turning into a ghost to, for example, avoid being defeated by Huan or Eonwe during the War of Wrath.

Other than the fact sauron literally does this when numenor is sunk? The Vala certainly do it in the first age. It's implied Morgoth does it in the first age. Gandalf does it in the third age. 

[slant]

  

29 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

While all the main characters except Galadriel witness the meteor at roughly the same time, and that is again weird because if it lands somewhere in Rhovanion, not sure how it passes over the Southlands, there are some implied differences in timelines. 

Oof this one is a real googly lol. The Red Comet flies south over Lindon, avoiding Eregion and Moria, or else Elrond would be shown seeing it too... then it takes a hard right and passes over Rohan, heads towards the Southlands, then turns a hard right again heading towards Rhovanion, where the Harfoots are. So essentially the path is possible only if the Red Comet is also Eru's Boomerang. Meteor Man had one very complicated flight path. 

There is a possibility, that they are actually three meteors, one flying over Lindon seen by Gil-Galad and falling before Eregion, another flying over the Southlands, seen by Arondir and the Ent, and a third one that lands in Rhovanion, where the Harfoots rescue Meteor Man. Seems highly unlikely, and hope they do not do that. 

29 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

It takes time for Galadriel to travel to Numenor, especially if she was much further north. Also, it takes time for Elrond to travel to Eregion and then Moria. Unless the timeline of these two characters started before the others, and the meteor was the way for the show to unite the timelines. Because in Arondir's case, it surely has been a few days at most. Same for the Harfoots.

Ohh... okay... When Gil-Galad sees it, Galadriel is out in the sea. Yes, she travels to Numenor later. Elrond travels to Eregion during this time. Arondir and Harfoots saw it a little later, which is the time taken for Galadriel to decide to abandon Valinor in slow motion and jump into the sea. The Southlands and Rhovanion are problematic here, not Numenor, Eregion and Lindon. Yes, so Arondir's capture and meeting with Adar, as well as the Harfoots 'rescuing' Meteor Man should take place in a lot less time than it takes for Galadriel to go to Numenor and then travel to the library, or for Elrond to go to Moria. 

One possible resolution can be that the Hobbits have been walking north, and Arondir has been digging for many more days than most of us are thinking. 

[Slurktan]

3 minutes ago, slant said:

  

Oof this one is a real googly lol. The Red Comet flies south over Lindon, avoiding Eregion and Moria, or else Elrond would be shown seeing it too... then it takes a hard right and passes over Rohan, heads towards the Southlands, then turns a hard right again heading towards Rhovanion, where the Harfoots are. So essentially the path is possible only if the Red Comet is also Eru's Boomerang. Meteor Man had one very complicated flight path. 

There is a possibility, that they are actually three meteors, one flying over Lindon seen by Gil-Galad and falling before Eregion, another flying over the Southlands, seen by Arondir and the Ent, and a third one that lands in Rhovanion, where the Harfoots rescue Meteor Man. Seems highly unlikely, and hope they do not do that. 

Ohh... okay... When Gil-Galad sees it, Galadriel is out in the sea. Yes, she travels to Numenor later. Elrond travels to Eregion during this time. Arondir and Harfoots saw it a little later, which is the time taken for Galadriel to decide to abandon Valinor in slow motion and jump into the sea. The Southlands and Rhovanion are problematic here, not Numenor, Eregion and Lindon. Yes, so Arondir's capture and meeting with Adar, as well as the Harfoots 'rescuing' Meteor Man should take place in a lot less time than it takes for Galadriel to go to Numenor and then travel to the library, or for Elrond to go to Moria. 

One possible resolution can be that the Hobbits have been walking north, and Arondir has been digging for many more days than most of us are thinking. 

The Meteor flies from west to east seemingly appearing from valinor. Do we know of anyone who poses to be someone from valinor in the second age? Why yes  yes we do.

[Werthead]

6 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Other than the fact sauron literally does this when numenor is sunk? The Vala certainly do it in the first age. It's implied Morgoth does it in the first age. Gandalf does it in the third age. 

Sauron imbued the Ring with power such that he could survive such events, otherwise I suspect he'd have been toast (for a while I assumed he'd left the Ring in Mordor and it operated as a spiritual anchor, summoning him back to Barad-dur, but I believe Tolkien later clarified he had the Ring with him in Numenor). The Valar do it in the War of Wrath because the rules have been relaxed and their limitations released.

Gandalf dies and his soul returns to Valinor, but he is then sent back until his task is done. But he's sent back to his mortal body on Zarakzigil and he has to physically get down and pursue the Fellowship. He doesn't teleport.