spoilers [Spoilers] Rings of Power: Adar, can you hear me?

[SuperHans]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You could equally use words like wooden, stilted, blank… that would probably be more fitting.

As for characterisation, i think the point is that RoP has done quite a poor job of establishing who these characters are as people in 3 episodes so far. Galadriel is maybe the one they’ve done most to establish, but outside of that you can’t really get a good sense of the ‘character’ of anyone.

Yeah, I often get a good sense of a complete stranger's 'character' after spending barely forty-five minutes in their company.

Happens all the time.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, SuperHans said:

Yeah, I often get a good sense of a complete stranger's 'character' after spending barely forty-five minutes in their company.

Happens all the time.

There are numerous examples of shows that are able to do just that, Cas used GoTs pilot as an example. I got a better sense of who Tyrion was in ten mins than anyone in the entire RoP runtime 

[Cas Stark]

25 minutes ago, DMC said:

This is classic overstatement.  Galadriel, Elrond, Durin, Elendil, Arondir, Celebrimbor all get introductory scenes where the viewer is provided clear establishment of their characters.  Just because you don't like that establishment doesn't mean it isn't there.

It may be a slight over statement.  But the 'characters' that are established in ROP are basically tropes.  Stoic Warrior.  Warrior Woman. Comical Dwarf.  Wise Elf.  Bland and flat.  There is no sense of them as real individuals.  But, I get it, mileage varies.  If people think these characters are well written, fleshed out, multi dimensional, then good for you.  I don't.  And I don't expect that this flatness and by the numbers superficial treatment is going to change at least for this season.

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, SuperHans said:

Yeah, I often get a good sense of a complete stranger's 'character' after spending barely forty-five minutes in their company.

Happens all the time.

This isn't real life.  A good film or show or book can give you the thumbnail of a character in 5 minutes or two or three paragraphs.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If people think these characters are well written, fleshed out, multi dimensional, then good for you.  I don't.  And I don't expect that this flatness and by the numbers superficial treatment is going to change at least for this season.

I'm just saying the rush to hyperbolically bury the show betrays any recognizable type of objectivity.  The show clearly actually does most of the things people complain about it not doing.  They just do it in middling fashion, IMO.  It's not like it's Rod Schneider is a carrot.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm just saying the rush to hyperbolically bury the show betrays any recognizable type of objectivity.  The show clearly actually does most of the things people complain about it not doing.  They just do it in middling fashion, IMO.  It's not like it's Rod Schneider is a carrot.

We've seen 3 out of 8 episodes for season 1.  That is almost half.  It seems fair to judge how well it has established the main characters, how well it is/isn't written, directed, acted, cast.  I said it was mediocre, not terrible.  It could improve, but I doubt it.  

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

We've seen 3 out of 8 episodes for season 1.  That is almost half.  It seems fair to judge how well it has established the main characters, how well it is/isn't written, directed, acted, cast.

Of course it's fair to judge at this point - or even after just the first episode.  I just found yours, at least the one I quoted, to be a rush to hyperbole. 

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, VigoTheCarpathian said:

Meh - I think this “big name” or “established” actor argument is plenty ridiculous.  The time commitment (~5 years, especially for lead roles we know do not die) and material/script (I like RoP but there’s not a lot of depth for an actor to enjoy - it’s not nearly as character-driven as any of the shows mentioned) likely make it a hard project, and I think people have done well with what we have seen so far.  

I suspect when they were casting, they ran into a big problem with the "we're filming in New Zealand," issue. That was a big enough problem for LotR but they got away with it because it was one year rather than five, and for a lot of the cast they had time off and could nip home for three weeks between shooting blocs and so on. For RoP, they were casting and basically having to tell people they'd be in New Zealand for maybe 8-9 months out of every year for half a decade. That probably ruled out a whole ton of big-name actors who simply weren't interested in doing that.

Of course, if they'd know it'd only be for one year and then they'd be based in the UK for the rest of the duration, maybe that would have gotten a different response.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

As for characterisation, i think the point is that RoP has done quite a poor job of establishing who these characters are as people in 3 episodes so far. Galadriel is maybe the one they’ve done most to establish, but outside of that you can’t really get a good sense of the ‘character’ of anyone or if you do it’s really not very interesting or complex

I actually disagree with regards to Celebrimbor here. Yes physically the actor is too old, his first introduction was weird as was him just leaving Elrond at the gates of Moria. However what dialogue he had with Elrond established him well and was somewhat fitting for Tolkien's character.

[Heartofice]

19 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I suspect when they were casting, they ran into a big problem with the "we're filming in New Zealand," issue. That was a big enough problem for LotR but they got away with it because it was one year rather than five, and for a lot of the cast they had time off and could nip home for three weeks between shooting blocs and so on. For RoP, they were casting and basically having to tell people they'd be in New Zealand for maybe 8-9 months out of every year for half a decade. That probably ruled out a whole ton of big-name actors who simply weren't interested in doing that.

Of course, if they'd know it'd only be for one year and then they'd be based in the UK for the rest of the duration, maybe that would have gotten a different response.

So little of the show is taking advantage of New Zealand landscape, so why even bother to film there? Apart from a handful of nice looking shots of mountains there is almost nothing justifying it. 
 

Most shots are either interiors, or using CGI or so close up that you get no sense of location. So why bother?

[Werthead]

17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

So little of the show is taking advantage of New Zealand landscape, so why even bother to film there? Apart from a handful of nice looking shots of mountains there is almost nothing justifying it. 

Most shots are either interiors, or using CGI or so close up that you get no sense of location. So why bother?

I'm pretty sure that's why they switched to the UK for Season 2, it wouldn't make much difference.

The Hobbit trilogy was much the same, although they did at least use some forests. Although they also used a very identifiable location from LotR (the plains of Rohan) for a completely different location in Middle-earth, which I know confused some people.

[TheReal_Rebel]

I have a question for those who don’t like The Rings of Power, is it better or worse than the Witcher or Wheel of Time?

As I’ve said earlier, I could not get past the first 5 to 15 minute of Wheel of Time, it is so godawful.

Despite Henry Cavill’s good-looks, I was on the verge of dumping the Witcher until Yennefer’s and Ciri’s stories in both seasons.  On the whole, the acting is  quite pedestrian— with the exceptions of Anya Charlota as Yennifer, and Myanna Burnig  as Tissaia—and the stories feel like they are based on a video game, not a book.

I’m entirely invested in Tolkien’s works and TH White’s, so the constant whining about a show based on an outline from Tolkien is perplexing.

All I can figure is that people were expecting a faithful adaptation of the Silmarillion and didn’t get it.

 

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, TheReal_Rebel said:

I have a question for those who don’t like The Rings of Power, is it better or worse than the Witcher or Wheel of Time?

As I’ve said earlier, I could not get past the first 5 to 15 minute of Wheel of Time it is so ge awful.

Despite Henry Cavill’s good-looks, I was on the verge of dumping the Witcher until Yennefer’s and Ciri’s stories in both seasons.  On the whole, the acting is  quite pedestrian— with the exceptions of Anya Charlota as Yennifer, and Myanna Burnig  as Tissaia—and the stories feel like their based on a video game, not a book.

I’m entirely invested in Tolkien’s works and TH White’s, so the constant whining about a show based on an outline from Tolkien is perplexing.

All I can figure is that people were expecting a faithful adaptation of the Silmarillion and didn’t get it.

Good question. I’ve never managed to get through an episode of WoT, so I’d assume RoP is certainly better than that.

Witcher I find to be incredibly patchy, like you the Yennifer parts of the story grabbed me but so much of the rest of it is a real struggle to stay interested. I thought the second season improved at times but I also got so bored I never finished.

Ironically it’s all the Elven bits in both shows that really drag! 
 

Id say RoP and the Witcher are both OK shows, not exceptional at all. I like some of the performances in the Witcher though, so that would give it a slight lead 

[TheReal_Rebel]

20 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Good question. I’ve never managed to get through an episode of WoT, so I’d assume RoP is certainly better than that.

Witcher I find to be incredibly patchy, like you the Yennifer parts of the story grabbed me but so much of the rest of it is a real struggle to stay interested. I thought the second season improved at times but I also got so bored I never finished.

Ironically it’s all the Elven bits in both shows that really drag! 
 

Id say RoP and the Witcher are both OK shows, not exceptional at all. I like some of the performances in the Witcher though, so that would give it a slight lead 

It’s interesting, because I don’t feel anything drags for me.  I find the acting in ROP of much higher quality over all, other than the exceptions I mentioned in the Witcher, but those were central charachters.

It’s a subjective opinion by both of us.  

I never thought I’d never get to see the Second Age of MIddle-Earth in my lifetime, so I’m enjoying myself.

[RhaenysBee]

44 minutes ago, TheReal_Rebel said:

All I can figure is that people were expecting a faithful adaptation of the Silmarillion and didn’t get it.

Perhaps a small minority. And another small minority was expecting something godawful from the get go and they probably see what they want to see. I think the majority was expecting an good story with epic visuals. They got the latter, not so much the former from what I gather.

The interesting thing is how insanely high the emotions are on both sides and how the debate keeps turning personal. It’s not. It’s also not two dimensional -  you’re either with us or against us, even though both sides keep trying to play this card. And it’s most definitely not, oh you like/don’t dislike this product this multi billionaire corporation sold you, well you are a good guy. You dislike the product, well you must be team evil then.

oh and the Witcher was a meh, bordering on shitty show, but if you ask me the Witcher books were also meh, bordering on poor. Never encountered the wheel of time, but I know Shannara was so bad I couldn’t finish it. HoTD is also only passable, for the record. Late GoT wasn’t even passable and bordered on unwatchable. Lost is cool. Spartacus was brilliant. Buffy blew my mind. (Just to illustrate that I don’t dislike everything) *

*none of this is in comparison to RoP, just in and of itself. 

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, TheReal_Rebel said:

It’s interesting, because I don’t feel anything drags for me.  I find the acting in ROP of much higher quality over all, other than the exceptions I mentioned in the Witcher, but those were central charachters.

It’s a subjective opinion by both of us.  

I never thought I’d never get to see the Second Age of MIddle-Earth in my lifetime, so I’m enjoying myself.

I have no real attachment to the world of the Silmarillion, I’ve tried reading it a few times and it’s not for me. I can see why this show might appeal if that was your bag, and I can see why it might also annoy you.

Im judging it really against other shows of its type and also the movies. Id say it mid tier fantasy, above most of the drek on Netflix , it probably will be better than the Witcher by the end of the series, but it’s well below something like peak Game of Thrones, and definitely not as good as the movies. As I said, that might be ok for some people, but I would have hoped for more. 

[Cas Stark]

32 minutes ago, TheReal_Rebel said:

I have a question for those who don’t like The Rings of Power, is it better or worse than the Witcher or Wheel of Time?

As I’ve said earlier, I could not get past the first 5 to 15 minute of Wheel of Time, it is so godawful.

Despite Henry Cavill’s good-looks, I was on the verge of dumping the Witcher until Yennefer’s and Ciri’s stories in both seasons.  On the whole, the acting is  quite pedestrian— with the exceptions of Anya Charlota as Yennifer, and Myanna Burnig  as Tissaia—and the stories feel like they are based on a video game, not a book.

I’m entirely invested in Tolkien’s works and TH White’s, so the constant whining about a show based on an outline from Tolkien is perplexing.

All I can figure is that people were expecting a faithful adaptation of the Silmarillion and didn’t get it.

 

It is better than Wheel of Time, which was bad.  It isn't better by a large margin, but it's still better, more grounded, and obviously much much better CGI.

The Witcher, hmmm, the witcher was never trying to be profound, just entertaining, and I thought it hit that mark.  So, maybe about teh same but with better production values.

[Raja]

36 minutes ago, TheReal_Rebel said:

Witcher

The Witcher is just really really bad.

[Corvinus85]

47 minutes ago, TheReal_Rebel said:

I have a question for those who don’t like The Rings of Power, is it better or worse than the Witcher or Wheel of Time?

As I’ve said earlier, I could not get past the first 5 to 15 minute of Wheel of Time, it is so godawful.

Despite Henry Cavill’s good-looks, I was on the verge of dumping the Witcher until Yennefer’s and Ciri’s stories in both seasons.  On the whole, the acting is  quite pedestrian— with the exceptions of Anya Charlota as Yennifer, and Myanna Burnig  as Tissaia—and the stories feel like they are based on a video game, not a book.

I’m entirely invested in Tolkien’s works and TH White’s, so the constant whining about a show based on an outline from Tolkien is perplexing.

All I can figure is that people were expecting a faithful adaptation of the Silmarillion and didn’t get it.

 

For me it's too early to tell in terms of the writing. Production wise, this show definitely looks better in terms of just about everything - VFX, costumes, set design. It also easily trumps both The Witcher and WoT in the music department, though I do like The Witcher soundtrack.

The Witcher managed a better hook with its first episode in season 1 and kept a reasonably good pace, but for anyone not familiar with the universe, it told an expansive story in a confusing way unless you paid attention to the details. Which I decided was a fair approach on repeat views. RoP chose to condense the timeline, instead.

If any of these shows looks and feels like a more expensive 90s fantasy shows, it's WoT, which on average is also the weakest in terms of acting. However, even that show had a direction for its plot, which is what has been the main criticism here for RoP. What is the story about. 

Given the unclear information that has been revealed or leaked about Amazon's deal with the Tolkien Estate, it's not unreasonable for people to think or hope that an adaptation of the Second Age stuff from The Silmarillion was going to happen. My own expectation for RoP has been mainly centered on it being able to capture the spirit of Tolkien's writings. Look-wise, it's fairly close; story-wise, I'm not convinced.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, TheReal_Rebel said:

I have a question for those who don’t like The Rings of Power, is it better or worse than the Witcher or Wheel of Time?

As I’ve said earlier, I could not get past the first 5 to 15 minute of Wheel of Time, it is so godawful.

Despite Henry Cavill’s good-looks, I was on the verge of dumping the Witcher until Yennefer’s and Ciri’s stories in both seasons.  On the whole, the acting is  quite pedestrian— with the exceptions of Anya Charlota as Yennifer, and Myanna Burnig  as Tissaia—and the stories feel like they are based on a video game, not a book.

I’m entirely invested in Tolkien’s works and TH White’s, so the constant whining about a show based on an outline from Tolkien is perplexing.

All I can figure is that people were expecting a faithful adaptation of the Silmarillion and didn’t get it.

It's better than Wheel of Time, though not by lots. It's certainly been more consistent (bearing in mind we've only seen three episodes so far), WoT started okay, peaked with a strong midseason, had a rough patch and then the season finale was extremely poor. One strength WoT has is Rosamund Pike, who was effortlessly and easily superior to anyone in RoP so far (though you'd hope so, with her form). WoT also had a much better title sequence (RoP's is pretty lacklustre).

I don't think it's quite as strong as The Witcher. The side-stories and characters in The Witcher are hit or miss but the central trio of Geralt, Ciri and Yennefer are both well-characterised and well-acted, which gives the show a solid central anchor that WoT and RoP lack. Season 2 was also a huge improvement over Season 1 in most respects (especially production value, which was suspect in Season 1 but much better in Season 2). The Witcher only really seems to get a lot of hate from people overly-wedded to the books, although the books aren't that fantastic (they go way off the boil after the first two story collections). I do grant the decision in Season 2 to deliberately kill off a fan-favourite character who survives the books and video games did seem almost deliberately calculated to annoy people, though.

I think House of the Dragon has also, and again on relatively few episodes, outstripped all of them so far. It's quite interesting - though I suspect frustrating - how HBO just rocks up and almost effortless does things better than most other people can manage, even if they have far more money. It's fascinating.