Valyrian Dagger Question

[Bex]

Hi, first time poster, long time lurker.

So I've been watching HotD and whilst I am really enjoying it, something has been bugging me about it and I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this / has an answer.

So in the TV series, much is mentioned about the dagger that goes on to have an important part to play in GoT. At first, I was thinking this is fan service and I didn't mind too much, but it seems to be given more and more prevalence as the series goes on. Now, being a die hard fan who has read the SOIAF books and all the others books set in that world multiple times, all this focus on the dagger seems to be building up to a quite large continuity issue.

So my issue is this. In the books, it is explicitly stated multiple times that the dagger belonged to Little Finger before he lost it in a bet. Now, he claims to lose it to Tyrion, but in actuality,  he lost it to King Robert. So it was only part of the royal treasury for a short while, before Joffrey steals it and gives it to the catspaw in an attempt to kill Bran to impress his supposed Father. After that, the dagger passes hands a few times before ending up with Baelish again for a while. In the books (to my knowledge), it is still with Baelish in the Vale. In the TV series, we see him give it to Bran, who gives it to Arya and then has an important part to play in the remainder of the show. 

So here is my question. King Viserys mentioned in HotD that the dagger has been in Targaryen possession since Aegon the Conqueror. Whilst I accept that it is Valyrian steel, and so makes sense to be originally in Targaryen ownership, I really can't see any logical in-world way in which Baelish ends up with it less than 200 years later. It might be explained in the show, which will be fine - in which case I can be patient and see how it all plays out. In the books, no mention is made to the dagger during the Targaryen reign, so going on books alone, I had always assumed that the dagger was nothing special, apart from being Valyrian Steel, and that, like many houses in the seven kingdoms, it had possibly been in his family for years. But given how important it is in HotD, I can't see how a house that was a VERY minor one at the time of Viserys I reign could end up with something so valuable. Did he steel it? Was it originally in the Royal Treasury from the Targaryen era, and Robert lost it to Baelish only to win it back later, in the event mentioned in first book? 

I don't suppose it matters, but it seems odd that it seemingly goes from something incredibly important in the early years of 100AC, and then is so forgotten about by 298AC that it is whimsically staked in a bet and lost? 

Knowing in large how the Dance of the Dragons plays out and the chaos that brings, I should imagine at least a partial answer will be given in the TV series, but I was just wondering whether I was the only one thinking about this, or whether anyone else had any thoughts on this too?

 

[WolfgangII]

I get you. The dagger has been a very important topic in HOTD (and given how it ended up being a VERY important artifact in GOT) I assume we will have a detailed account on how, or at least with whom, it ends up. 

If the dagger (as the prophecy) is passed from king to heir, it could be that line enden up broken between Aegon II and Aegon III. My money is that the dagger would end up with either Daemon (after the Blacks take KL) or Aemond (as gift from Aegon II to his brother) and will be lost in the Battle above the God's Eye. Maybe a young Littlefinger found when he was at Riverrun. (Sidebet: He used the dagger in his duel against Brandon).

 

[Bex]

WolfgangII thank-you for responding and I really like your theory!

I had thought that the line would be broken after Rhaenyra as who would she tell the prophecy to? Throughout the Dance, her heir keeps changing (for obvious reasons) and so there's no real chance for her to have a conversation with the one who actually ends up being the heir, especially as the Targaryen line eventually goes on from Viserys II, who I believe is still presumed dead when Rhaenyra meets her fate? (I can't quite remember the timeline order at that point). I like it being given to Daemon by Rhaenyra, especially as he gave her the necklace. It could be her gift to him. And then considering what happens to him, geographically it is plausible that Littlefinger, or more likely an ancestor of his, then finds it and keeps it, like everyone kept the rubies after Rhaegar's death. 

I guess we shall just wait to see how it plays out in the show, and then hopefully we will be able to fill in the blanks as to what happens in the time jump between the series! I just really hope they don't have it still in the Royal Treasury by the end of the series, because that would be a real continuity error, and a poor one. 

[Lord Varys]

From what the imagery indicates

Spoiler

the dagger passes possession in the wake of the Aemond-Vhagar crisis. Alicent takes the dagger from Viserys' belt to attack Lucerys and Rhaenyra intervenes. She seems to be taking the weapon from Alicent, keeping it afterwards ... at least that would be my reading since it seems the dagger is also used in the Valyrian wedding ceremony Daemon and Rhaenyra are going to have shortly thereafter.

How things go from there we cannot really say. I'd imagine that the dagger stays with the Targaryens until Aerys, only to pass to Littlefinger afterwards, possibly via the Tullys.

[bowfling44]

Interesting thoughts, I also wonder about the prophecy itself. I wonder if it has been misunderstood even by viewers...

What if the blood to which the prophecy refers is not the owner of the dagger, but actually the person whose blood is DRAWN by the dagger.

If this is true we know Catelyn Starks blood is drawn when she defends Bran, and her heirs Include Arya. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

18 hours ago, WolfgangII said:

and given how it ended up being a VERY important artifact in GOT.

But the dagger was completely forgotten after season 1 until it randomly resurfaced in season 7 (!!) and became super important from then on. I still don't understand how and why that happened.

[Grant James Austin]

whatever secrets house Targaryen about prophesy, dragons and blood sorcery, get murdered away to things nobody knows between Meagor the cruel, and the dance.   Can't pass it on because everyone who knew anything is dead. 

the dagger prophesy already doesn't make sense since half of all successions prior to Viserys I already happened by murder and violence. The thing should already have become lost knowledge when Meagor usurped the throne. 

[WolfgangII]

I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense and that the dagger and the prophecy are more of a retcon, but I can see an scenario where Aenys told all of his children (only way for Jaehaerys to know about it) and HOTD must show a moment when Rhaenyra tell Aegon the Younger (probably on their way to Dragonstone before she dies).

[BlackLightning]

I think Baelish gets it from House Tully (namely Hoster) and that Hoster had gotten it from one of his kinsmen. One of King Aegon V's sons was supposed to have been married to a Tully woman but the Targaryen prince in question broke the betrothal. Maybe he gave the dagger to House Tully as a way to make amends?

On 9/28/2022 at 4:46 PM, WolfgangII said:

I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense and that the dagger and the prophecy are more of a retcon, but I can see an scenario where Aenys told all of his children (only way for Jaehaerys to know about it) and HOTD must show a moment when Rhaenyra tell Aegon the Younger (probably on their way to Dragonstone before she dies).

No, I doubt it.

When Aenys dies, Jaehaerys and Alysanne are little kids.

 

I think what had happened was that Aenys either told Aegon who tells proceeds to tell Rhaena or he told both Aegon and Rhaena as the two are his twin heirs. Why else would Rhaena be commanded to not join Aegon in the fight against Maegor? She had a bigger dragon than Aegon.

In any case, Aegon and Rhaena both knew at some point. Aegon died and Rhaena kept the secret. Rhaena didn't believe or want a girl like Aerea to be the ruler of Westeros and entrusted with such a heavy burden. So, she supported her brother's reign and told him. Which explains why Jaehaerys was so hellbent on having an adult male heir that also happened to be either a war veteran or a very educated man.

There's also the chance that the elderly Visenya told Jaehaerys and Alysanne herself as a way of explaining why she and Maegor usurped them.

[WolfgangII]

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think what had happened was that Aenys either told Aegon who tells proceeds to tell Rhaena or he told both Aegon and Rhaena as the two are his twin heirs. Why else would Rhaena be commanded to not join Aegon in the fight against Maegor? She had a bigger dragon than Aegon.

In any case, Aegon and Rhaena both knew at some point. Aegon died and Rhaena kept the secret. Rhaena didn't believe or want a girl like Aerea to be the ruler of Westeros and entrusted with such a heavy burden. So, she supported her brother's reign and told him. Which explains why Jaehaerys was so hellbent on having an adult male heir that also happened to be either a war veteran or a very educated man.

There's also the chance that the elderly Visenya told Jaehaerys and Alysanne herself as a way of explaining why she and Maegor usurped them.

Ok, I agree with that scenario. It seems more plausible and in-character. Rhaena knowing ir very likely, and she could tell Jaehaerys.

Now, did Maekar I told his sons about the prophecy? I imagine he would tell Daeron, as he was named heir and Lord of Dragostone. Given that he asked Aemon to serve in the Red Keep, I would think he told him, or maybe Daeron told his brother. I don't now if Maekar told Aegon, but I'm guessing Aemon did and that's one reason why Aegon offer the Wall to Bloodraven and Aemon went with him.