[No Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[Ran]

Spoiler free discussion here.

[Zorral]

Back to rat infested, miserable King’s Landing, with many questions.

Good grief, the Valaryon castle High Tide (does anyone believe anyone in that era would name home castle High Tide?) is equally dismal and dark, but probably less rat infested, and besides, is filled with love of parents for each other and for their children.  Who knows about Runestone, since Rhea Royce is murdered before we get there on that splendid white horse cantering along the yellow road among glorious green highlands, the game from his rider’s successful hunt bouncing against his croup, but not before she confirms Daemon hasn’t been able in all these years to consummate the marriage (told ya he was a flop!).

Tellingly, both Runestone and High Tide contain the only two people in the Westros peerage, Rhea and Rhaenys, for whom I’d want to be a menial, since with them one’s invisible ears – lowly servant remember, are merely hands, also mostly unseen except when doin’ it rong  -- might overhear some intelligent conversation One of them we met for 30 seconds in the this episode and is promptly removed, thus one assumes a nasty ending coming for the other as well, ya?

In the meantime King V is sick, as he’s been since the beginning. Judging from the preview of episode 6, which does such a serious time jump, the youngest protagonists, Rhaenyra and Queen Alicent are different actors, his illness is going to to be the longest one on tv before croaking, as Cersei’s pregnancy was the longest pregnancy on tv, probably.

After a shades-of-the- equally-risible metaphorical speech out of Slayer Buffy's mouth, about being cookie dough, not yet baked, on a beach below High Tide, Rhaenyra presents a marriage l'approchement with Ser Laenor in a metaphorical speech about preferring roast duck to goose because she finds goose greasy, so she's more than happy for him to have the goose while she dines on duck. So, Rhaenyra is betrothed to gay Ser Laenor, after Daemon murdered his wife, one of the few smart ones in this bunch of clowns – just too late to marry his niece.

Then, thanks to creepy Larys Strong’s (what the eff is his game anyway?), whispering to the queen, we learn Criston Cole is dumb as a sack of rocks, who has learned nothing after his years at court, because he confesses effing the Princess to effing Queen Alicent, without even being asked if he effs the Princess. O Criston, I’d quite liked you, at least what I’d seen of you, but revealed in this episode several times as the dumbest guy in the room, you lost my respect, never to be recovered.

At the supposedly first wedding feast in a week at least of projected wedding festivity, while Rhaennyra wears a braided cholla loaf studded with cranberries on her head, after an equally ghastly wiggy-wigged Daemon arrives to demand Runestone for his own from the Royces now that he’s killed his wife, after Alicent Goes Green like Scarlett O’Hara in her repurposed green window drapes determined never to go hungry again, after doing -- what was that? a court dance where people pretend to be courting dragons? was there no budget line for a choreographer and dancers as there was for that opulent elegance of the skilled dancers at the ball in HBO’s Gilded Age finale? after Daemon and Rhaenyra taunt each other with running off to Dragonstone, as he’s about to kiss her in front of King V and everybody, and after watching her lover Criston batter her not-quite-yet husband’s lover to death, in the throne room, with Joffrey’s blood still on the flags, their wedding rites are read and Rhaenyra and Laenor are married. No tourneys for them.  O, and Ser Criston isn’t even arrested.  

This viewer failed to reach suspension of disbelief.  Also, surely the intelligent peers and the small folk are horrified and terrified because they know They are in for astounding states of misery and death.  But hey, they are invisible to royals and peers and lords.

There is not a single character in this chronicle of royals and pretenders fighting to the multitudes of deaths of Many, though not themselves, to sit on a backstabbing throne.  None of them exhibit, except Rhea and Rhaenys  a modicum of the vitality, in the extremely brief moments we get in their company, of, say, a Disi in ROP – who further has not only their smarts, but charm and extraordinary talent, as well as endless joy and cheer at being alive – and in love with her utterly loving, doting and admiring husband Durin. 

Alas, though, I do believe HOTD is the way it really was / is among royalty, and thus this is the most realistic, true to history, television show going, quite like enduring the courts of Stephen of Blois, or, say Richard II’s. Though without hop-and-flap dancing, thank the Gods.
 

[Ran]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

(does anyone believe anyone in that era would name home castle High Tide?)

What era are we speaking of? The name isn't wildly different from many other castle names in the setting, some ancient, some quite new... 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Ran

[Zorral]

Good question, but it's sorta anglo earlier Medieval, since he modeled this on The Anarchy, except, you know, with dragons.  Which also brings up for me again That Dance -- in that era men and women didn't dance together either as couple or in contra  (line) dances until much later.

I maintain that nomeclature in a lot of Westros, etc. is not convincing.

[Cashless Society]

Hey @Zorral, why do you consider Daemon to be one of the smarter characters?

[Zorral]

5 hours ago, Cashless Society said:

Hey @Zorral, why do you consider Daemon to be one of the smarter characters?

Don't know how you got that idea. In my opinion he's a psycho, which nearly obviates any discussion of whether or not he's smart.  But he sure has looked stupid so far, right?

None of them are very smart it seems to me, indeed most of them seem quite stupid, just as aristos world over through history often are, since they are inbred with the entitlement that only what they want and think matters.  The only exceptions I'm 'begging' so to speak are Rheanys and Rhea, as I overtly stated.

Sometimes there are rulers who are very smart -- Charlemagne was one -- but that doesn't make them nice or good either, but effective.  Sometimes that works out, in terms of legacy turning them into icons and saints and ancestors.

None of these aristos we've been given any contact with on HOTD are shown to be effective/smart -- unless the scheming to turn the world into a bloodbath for their personal ambitions/reasons.

As Somebody once said, "Do not put your faith in princes . . . ."

 

 

[Zorral]

7 hours ago, Zorral said:

after Daemon murdered his wife, one of the few smart ones in this bunch of clowns

Ah, I see why you though I said this -- too many markers, so you misinterpreted what I did say, when reading the markers -- "Rhaenyra is betrothed to gay Ser Laenor, after Daemon murdered his wife, one of the few smart ones in this bunch of clowns – just too late to marry his niece.

This adjectival clause, "one of the few smart ones in this bunch of clowns" refers back to Rhea, not to Daemon. Just by killing his wife now shows how stupid he is, or at least a day late and a dollar short.

 

[Darzin]

Well I liked this episode despite it's flaws. I liked the dance scene too despite it being panned maybe just because I'm not interested in dance but rather all the political and sexual tension going on between everyone but the bride and groom. With all that tension in the air something had to  pop off and it did. That's been much criticized but it worked for me until the last minute. I thought Cole has fled to the godswood and was going to kill himself which seemed a fitting end. Alicent swooping in at the last second ruined that and unless they come up with some really good excuse it will make no sense that he's still breathing. The next episode opening with his execution would redeem everything but I doubt they'll do that. 

We got to see Daemon's cool  wife too for a nanosecond before she was murdered. And a new level to Daemon, making him much more of a black character and he wasn't that light to begin with. But now stepping into a full on villian role. 

Despite this an other flaws I still enjoyed the episode. Probably more than I should have but it worked for me.   

Edited September 20, 2022 by Darzin

[dbunting]

Too bad we lost Rhea as soon as we met her, I'm pretty sure she would have been a great character, I got strong Asha Greyjoy feel from her.

So why did Cole attack him? I mean I know he approached Cole and told him he knows about what he did with the Princess but to attack him in front of everyone? I guess they are trying to show us how unbalanced he is?

Also, the Littlefinger clone with the crutches, I wish him a horrible death. I don't like him not one little bit.

I do like how they are trying to show us why the war that is coming is inevitable. Giving us the view from both the Queen and Princess side helps. 

One thing that is hurting my enjoyment of the show a little bit is that I keep looking for characters that we already know. Like Littlefinger = Larys Strong.  Leanor = Renly and  Jofrey = Loras..  Hopefully I can turn this part of my mind off while watching future episodes.

[Zorral]

16 minutes ago, Darzin said:

I still enjoyed the episode. Probably more than I should have but it worked for me.   

There is no more than I should have here, one might think, since the writers, actors and everyone are working so hard for you to enjoy it, right? 

But o man, that dance, within that presumed cultural context, just, o lordy, threw me against a wall (along with those awful wigs and other sartorial decisions).  But that's me, not anybody else. 

[Zorral]

16 minutes ago, dbunting said:

So why did Cole attack him? I mean I know he approached Cole and told him he knows about what he did with the Princess but to attack him in front of everyone? I guess they are trying to show us how unbalanced he is?

The real question it seems to me, is why in hell did Jeoffry taunt Cole that way in the first place? One might almost think Joeffry was asking for it -- or else, in keeping with the 11th -12th century way, of most of the guys just being as stupid as stupid can be, and MUST weeny wave: I still get mine, you lose yours or something like.

Let's admit it -- the little bit we've seen of Ser Laenor -- he's  elegant and graceful, an effective warrior and can ride a dragon -- but lordessa, his lover Jeoffry's a lout -- who can't ride a dragon, and we've not seen him be a good fighter either. But we know from the git go that Criston is one hell of a warrior.

Like almost all of them are louts, in the grand manner of those guys back then (which doesn't stop them from being really brace and great fighters, but that's about the best any of them can do, with or without inheritance). Which means ultimately Cole's also a lout, and if Rhaenyra was smarter, i.e. older and more experienced, she'd have known that from the git go -- not that his loutishness would necessarily (though usually it does, but see: "older and more experienced") got in the way of hot sex. Plus, you know, one hell of a warrior.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Zorral

[DMC]

21 minutes ago, Darzin said:

I liked the dance scene too despite it being panned maybe just because I'm not interested in dance but rather all the political and sexual tension going on between everyone but the bride and groom. With all that tension in the air something had to  pop off and it did.

Oh yeah I certainly was digging the Dance scene - particularly Daemon hitting on Laena, and Laena reciprocating, and them both being the only single people in the wedding party.  Reminded me of actual weddings!  Daemon cutting in on Harwin and his conversation with Rhaenyra also was pretty interesting and I really wanted to see how it ended - but then Cole beating a dude's face in ruined everything in every possible way.  It'd be nice to see Daemon finish for once!

[Cashless Society]

13 hours ago, dbunting said:

So why did Cole attack him? I mean I know he approached Cole and told him he knows about what he did with the Princess but to attack him in front of everyone? I guess they are trying to show us how unbalanced he is?

My interpretation is that Cole is currently at his most insecure state. He's humiliated that his lover will only treat as a mistress.

The queen dismisses him after making his confession and he now he has a million ideas of what she might do. Will she have him also confess to the king? Will it be public, in front all the noblemen of the realm? Will she keep his secret and use blackmail him for whatever schemes she planning? Will she use him for sexual favours?

And then some Velaryon knight tells him he knows his secret as well. Unfortunately, Joffrey does not know that Criston and Rhaenyra have ended things, so instead of taking what he says for it is (an offering of an alliance given that they're supposedly on the same boat), Criston interprets it as a an outright threat. Which puts him even more on edge. 

So now Criston has no agency on how things are going to pan out, he gets desperate and, given he doesn't know any other way to handle the situation, he just wants to lash out at anyone. Joffrey, being the least valued member of the celebrations (at least in Criston's eyes), is the best person he can take out all his emotions on in that moment.

[Zorral]

The things you guys like about the dance scene though, has nothing to do with  dance as entertainment was historically across the board from the middle / near east and Europe (which is what I know well, along with dances-ritual in African cultures) was performed as a spectacle for guests, and the performers were generally outside the status system of the entertained -- in fact, much of the time, slaves.  Justinian's Theodora was a dancer among her many disreputable entertainer skills, making a marriage with her by an emperor so shocking nobody could even stop it.   There are cultures that had within them a class of very high strata entertainers who got very well paid, were greatly honored and so on, as in Japan, India, and even a very tiny number in Classical Greece.

But social dancing, where the guests dance as entertainment and honor for themselves, who are also women, and done in public and mixed company, is a very recent development.  Even folk dancing didn't have men and women dancing together.

The whole hop and flap thing was thrown together it seems to showcase Psycho Daemon as so irresistible that even very young Laena is drawn to him. This makes no sense at all, considering the education presumably provided to her by her very smart parents, particularly Rheanys.  But we've seen nothing of her than this, other than being sent off to woo the oozing King V, which she dutifully does. But he's a king, and Daemon doesn't even have a castle of his own.  The other thing is this too provides a showcase with action (not in a brothel!) for him to go after Rhaenyra again -- though, as observed, he's a day late and dollar short to pitch woo again for her dad's permission, now that the first wife to which you objected is gone.

8 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

So now Criston has no agency on how things are going to pan out, he gets desperate and, given he doesn't know any other way to handle the situation, he just wants to lash out at anyone. Joffrey, being the least valued member of the celebrations (at least in Criston's eyes), is the best person he can take out all his emotions on in that moment.

Your observation makes sense.  It also shows both Joffrey and Criston as not bright, right?  But again, historically, lords going lethally at each other during public celebrations, was quite common in the 11th-12th century in Europe, and for quite more centuries after.  Infantile, raised w/o need for impulse control, feeling entitled to everything whenever, and, consequently, very very very sensitive to their 'honor', often not even actual war and battles restrained them from going at each other at any old time.

[Winterfell is Burning]

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

.  Justinian's Theodora was a dancer among her many disreputable entertainer skills, making a marriage with her by an emperor so shocking nobody could even stop it.  

The whole hop and flap thing was thrown together it seems to showcase Psycho Daemon as so irresistible that even very young Laena is drawn to him. This makes no sense at all, considering the education presumably provided to her by her very smart parents, particularly Rheanys.  But we've seen nothing of her than this, other than being sent off to woo the oozing King V, which she dutifully does. But he's a king, and Daemon doesn't even have a castle of his own.  The other thing is this too provides a showcase with action (not in a brothel!) for him to go after Rhaenyra again -- though, as observed, he's a day late and dollar short to pitch woo again for her dad's permission, now that the first wife to which you objected is gone.

 

Actually, the big objection to the wedding of Justinian and Theodora wasn't of the nobility, but of the Empress Euphemia because she herself had been a prostitute and didn't want the drama of another former prostitute becoming wife of the emperor (Justinian's uncle, Justin I, was of low birth and became Emperor in one of the most hilarious incidents of all time- he was given a bribe by another candidate to back him, but used the money to bribe other people to support himself instead and had the other guy executed once he took over).

Regarding Laena's attraction, yes, she has smart parents and good education, but has that ever stopped teenage girls from going after terrible men?

[Zorral]

48 minutes ago, Chataya de Fleury said:

I want those wall hangings.

https://traveling-cook.com/pompeii-brothel-sex-paintings/

[Zorral]

14 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

has that ever stopped teenage girls from going after terrible men?

Has that ever stopped terrible men from going after young girls, for that matter?

The thing though, about young girls, their usual pick for a terrible man is not some weird old guy, unless a pop star.  But in this world Daemon's not going to impress a young girl from a family that's at least as famous as his, and has a whole lot more money and property to boot -- even if his bro is King V.  Though it occurs that perhaps in the Stepstones her brother came to admire the sheer insanity of Daemon's deeds and praised him at home.  That would have been a good bit that would have helped this, but there's no point in that since it didn't happen.

14 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Empress Euphemia because she herself had been a prostitute

Well, it depends on which chronicler one reads, I suppose!  Mushroom Procopius or Malalas or  Theophanes? 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Zorral