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[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


Ran
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1 hour ago, Mladen said:

As for Criston, he could easily justify himself. People were drinking, he attacked me, threatened the Princess and I reacted. Not a story I would find unbelievable.

You're being ridiculous! He murdered him in the middle of a party after he offered an alliance while striking the King consort in the process. That's a "his head is at my feet" situation if ever one existed. 

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Daemon taking out Rhea seems to be the kind of nonsense stuff he would do now that Viserys has commanded him to return to her and he presumably cannot take Dragonstone yet again.

Although the murder scene is kind of nonsensical - why not have them ride out together or it be more an arranged accident?

In the book nobody suspects he has anything to do with it, of course, since he is on the Stepstones, but that's no proof of anything. He could have acted through Royce servants/retainers he had bought, etc. Not that I believe he did ... but then, I also didn't believe Littlefinger was behind Joffrey's muder until he told Sansa.

Don't like the fact at all that she changed her to the heir of Runestone rather than keeping her as the Lady of Runestone. There was no reason to change that at all.

Larys Strong seems to be a real piece of work. Manipulative little bastard, preying on Alicent feeding her information she would have likely never cared or asked for. Does he not know what he is doing there ... or does he not care?

Apparently Ryan Condal really did read all our threads about by what name the children should go ... although one wonders now why the hell Aemon and Jaehaerys were apparently weaker-willed than Viserys there. They didn't ensure that Aemon's heir's children would be named Targaryen. Any case, though, if you take the whole thing as a pissing contest between two mighty lords there then it does make sense that they do that.

Corlys not understanding his son's sexual preferences was childish. Rhaenys being relaxed and informal at home I enjoyed - it is also a really nice touch that she and Viserys really like each other despite everything. But she could be a little bit more ambitious for her children - especially since their dragon advantage is really huge at that time.

Also - can't wait until the Triarchy puts High Tide and all of Corlys' great trophies junk to the torch. I know this is supposed to look impressive but it doesn't. It just looks weird. If this stuff is to matter then tell us what the guy did.

Really liked Alicent coming into her own. Great entrance there with the green dress.

The suckers cutting young Laena claiming Vhagar does suck. Really hard! We want that scene restored! Also not showing Vhagar along with Meleys and Seasmoke flying in - or her getting at least referenced during the talk with Daemon.

The ending was abrupt again - the time jump is not set up at all. There should have been some proper closure, possibly even a coda there.

Really can relate to the Criston Cole thing. It is pretty heart-breaking to see how he summons up his courage to ask her. Rhaenyra's reaction is nice, too, you can see she doesn't really know what to say, doesn't has experience with this kind of thing.

You can kind of guess why Criston isn't punished - nobody saw what happened, especially not the guy who counts, Viserys, so if Alicent stands up for him or even claims she saw Joffrey attacking him or planning to attack Rhaenyra, etc.

But this is still a silly change - the tourney would have worked much better - since Joffrey was Laenor favorite and friend, and the Velaryons are powerful as hell, and now even more powerful. Why is Criston Cole still there ten years later? Rhaenyra and Laenor should have gotten rid of him. Because they would know why he did what he did.

A tourney is a different thing. Accidents do happen there ... and in the book there is no reason to assume that Rhaenyra cared for Laenor nor his favorite, so she and Viserys wouldn't do anything to punish Criston even if they were of the opinion he had gone too far there.

In the show this thing is much harder to swallow, especially since there is no proper ending - not even a decent setup for the Daemon-Laena marriage. There should have been a kiss there, or Corlys/Daemon making the match. Daemon-Rhaenyra talking and possibly even kissing during the dance puts the audience on the wrong track there.

Oh, and at this point somebody could mention both the fact that Alicent's new babe is a girl and is named Helaena. We saw her in two episodes already and while people can guess it must be a girl since folks only ever mention the son named Aegon ... it would be nice to confirm this. Especially since we will have lots of new children in the next episode.

Also - those decadent things start to annoy me. Why can't they afford rat catchers? Last week there are rats in the royal bedchamber (!) and this week in the throne room. Also, you know, if there is a panic and people are attacking each other then you fucking knights stand up and do something! These people don't look they are capable of actually starting and fighting the Dance.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys not understanding his son's sexual preferences was childish. Rhaenys being relaxed and informal at home I enjoyed - it is also a really nice touch that she and Viserys really like each other despite everything. But she could be a little bit more ambitious for her children - especially since their dragon advantage is really huge at that time.

Gay men have been having sex with women since the dawn of time. And of course, some people eventually realize they're bisexual (although it's usually the same-sex attraction that comes second). There are still arguments about how much control we have over our sexuality. I think it makes perfect sense that Corlys would believe that Laenor would "grow out of it" eventually.

 

I wish we saw more noble families at the wedding.

Rhaenys noted how weird it was for Viserys to come to Corlys instead of the other way around. Why didn't he summon Corlys instead?

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9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Gay men have been having sex with women since the dawn of time. And of course, some people eventually realize they're bisexual (although it's usually the same-sex attraction that comes second). There are still arguments about how much control we have over our sexuality. I think it makes perfect sense that Corlys would believe that Laenor would "grow out of it" eventually.

 

I wish we saw more noble families at the wedding.

Rhaenys noted how weird it was for Viserys to come to Corlys instead of the other way around. Why didn't he summon Corlys instead?

I seem to recall having read in a book that, back in the Middle Ages, being gay (not that such term existed for medieval people in the first place) was something you did, not something you were, so maybe Corlys thought that Laenor was just having some sausage party fun.

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3 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I seem to recall having read in a book that, back in the Middle Ages, being gay (not that such term existed for medieval people in the first place) was something you did, not something you were, so maybe Corlys thought that Laenor was just having some sausage party fun.

 

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This episode is a rare example of me being absolutely in love with an episode that has some major flaws.

Seriously. I think this is the best episode of the series so far...but man does this episode have problems. Problems that no other episode this season has had.

First of all, this episode was rushed. Not the entire episode...mainly the last ten to fifteen minutes. But to be honest, this episode was jam-packed: we went from meeting Rhea Royce to the Targaryen-Velaryon union to Alicent becoming a plotter that would impress the likes Varys to the Joffrey Lonmouth drama.

Basically, everything that went wrong with this episode revolves around the fact that they are rushing through the background and buildup to the Dance. The wedding of Rhaenyra and Laenor and whatever chaotic shenanigans that were bound to unfold should have been the last episode of this season.

I've said it from the moment that this show was announced: they should have started with the Great Council of 101 at the latest and Second Quarrel at the earliest. What I really wanted is for them to start off with the reigns of Aenys and Maegor and go from there.

If we had started off with the death of Prince Baelon and ended with the wedding, it would've been better. All the post-ten-year time jump would be starting off with the new season.

3 hours ago, SilverGhost said:

"He had a knife and was near the princess, I believed her life was in danger." 

BOOM!

Criston's behavior is absolutely unacceptable. But 21st century low-level law enforcement get away with kind of behavior all the time in real life. Most notably where black people in the United States are concerned.

That being said, if he were any other man-at-arms, sworn shield or even a non-inheriting son of a nobleman, he'd pay dearly for that. Prince Oberyn was basically exiled for similar behavior and Quentyn had to be forcibly fostered out and Prince Oberyn didn't even do anything half as bad as Ser Criston.

But Ser Criston is a knight of the Kingsguard and they serve for life: at this point, it's the either the Wall or have them executed.

But it's well within Alicent's rights and power to prevent anything from happening to Criston. And Viserys, being the only one who can overrule her, is weak.

All in all, it dovetails quite nicely with Ser Gerold Royce's comment about how men in the Vale answer for their crimes where men in King's Landing seem to get free passes.

3 hours ago, nara said:

I really love this series so far. Really gripping episode IMO and nice setup for blacks vs. greens in the future.

Gotta say, if I had not read the novella, I would be Team Alicent all the way. They have done a great job of making her someone sympathetic to root for.  At the same time, they have created enough doubt about Rhaenyra to make it a true choice between the two women.

I also like the Criston Cole storyline and how he became Team Alicent. Although I know the future, I was genuinely afraid he might kill himself. That’s good direction!  I’m so glad he offed Joffrey. I was thinking “that doofus gots to go!” But Laenor named his youngest after him, so I guess he does get to linger in that sense.

I gotta say that the changed/added storylines in this show seem much better than those in GoT. 

How the hell did Laena age so much when Rhaenyra and Alicent still look so young?

also Viserys looks too sick for someone who has to hang around for another 16 years!

Anyone who is Team Alicent at this point can be understood and forgiven. Anyone who is Team Alicent when Aegon and Aemond start running around is a very dangerous hypocrite.

That said, I do think Alicent is really overreacting to the truth about Rhaenyra. She was just harping on about how youthful boisterousness leads to sexually-charged lapses in judgment can be understood. Why is she so pressed? Yeah, she lied but she didn't get your father fired. Your father got himself fired.

Overall, the amount of envy and hatred that was percolating in the room at the engagement banquet was insane. Great use of tension.

Alicent - at this point - is obviously envious of Rhaenyra just for the fact that Rhaenyra doesn't have to abide by the (stupid) rules that other women have to abide by. Alicent is all duty whereas Rhaenyra is mostly passion. Daemon, Vaemond, Jason and Criston were envious of Laenor. Joffrey was envious of Criston and Rhaenyra.

Speaking of Joffrey Lonmouth: gods, what a douchebag. 

And speaking of douchebags...I did not like Ryan Condol's decision to have Daemon explicitly murder Rhea. It would have been better for it to play out more like it did in the books in that she had a traumatic brain injury that claimed her life about two weeks after the actual accident...even if Daemon had caused the accident.

I am also not liking what they are doing with Laena. She's stunning and awesome but she is barely onscreen.

 

Edited by BlackLightning
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The scene with Clubfoot and Queen Alicent in the godswood was expertly directed. Not only was it exquisite to look at, it was rife with a lot of symbolism...specifically the Garden of Eden. Larys Clubhoot hobbling and squirming about like a snake and all the red leaves looked like apples.

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Larys Strong seems to be a real piece of work. Manipulative little bastard, preying on Alicent feeding her information she would have likely never cared or asked for. Does he not know what he is doing there ... or does he not care?

He knows exactly what he's doing.

I hated - and loved - every moment of it. It seems to me that they are planting the seeds and laying the foundation for when

Spoiler

Larys becomes a full-fledged, near-Satanic agent of chaos at the end of the Dance.

 

31 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I seem to recall having read in a book that, back in the Middle Ages, being gay (not that such term existed for medieval people in the first place) was something you did, not something you were, so maybe Corlys thought that Laenor was just having some sausage party fun.

I've read the same thing too. It's true.

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5 hours ago, SilverGhost said:

"He had a knife and was near the princess, I believed her life was in danger." 

Quote

Prince John: “A knife! He's got a knife!”

Eleanor of Aquitaine: “Of course he has a knife, he always has a knife, we all have knives! It's 1183 and we're barbarians!"

Hell, need to see the scene and Hepburn's delivery. The Lion in Winter is so good:

 

Edited by Ran
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52 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Did they film a scene of Laena claiming Vhagar and they cut it?

Yes. It was during the wedding of Alicent and Viserys.

And remember, even the Maesters have NO CLUE what Larys was doing constantly stirring up shit and betraying everyone left and right.

They're like, "Dude was just evil. We can't explain it."

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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Hey, my favoriet part of Game of Thrones, the book, was when Robb is going to House Frey and Cat said, "Once we are welcomed into his home, we are protected and NOBODYT can touch us.  This has been a  tradition in Westeroes for thousands of years... except for that one time when Ser Cristan Cole caved some guy's head in because... reasons... 

What I liked:

The Heir Apparent, Not Presumptive:  The Princess explained, in no uncertain terms, that she wants to be Queen, Ruler of Westeroes and the Seven Kingdoms. She is not doing it just because its her duty; she wants it.  I liked that she 1) told Ser Cristan that she wanted to throne more than him; 2) that the King Consort could continue to fuck his boyfriend and she would fuck ser Cristan and 3) that Daemon was a baby, and would not actually act out his desire.  He was reckless... he was not THAT reckless.  The Princess explained who she would be.  And what she would do.  And what she would allow and what she would not.  This was her vision of what she wanted.  It was very interesting.  

So Its The Long Good-Bye: Watching the slow, inexorable devolution of Viserys I is being done meticulously, gradually and with special attention to its impacts on those around him and what they notice.  He falls twice, Alicent notices (both times); his hands have melted, Rhaenys notices; the Queen is easily made sea sick, Lord Strong notices.  And we can see in the next episodes that Viserys is coming apart and maybe (MAYBE) his sanity is going with him.  And the audience has been well-prepared for this problem and how it will impact the realm.  Good details, a fantastic track record that leaves us all with ample evidence and examples....

... if only another Targaryen leader had been handled so well... but I digress.  

A Queen and Her Colors: I feel that this was Alicent's coming out party.  She said goodbye to her father and then undressed, almost literally, Ser Cristan, she sends a message to all the realm that she and her children are playing for the Throne.  She saves Ser Cristan's life because she can and then takes her place by her husband's side as he falls apart.  This was her episode from start to finish.  

What I Am On the Fence About:

King Trek: Why id the King of Westeros traveling to a lesser Lord's realm (ie: not Stark, Aryn, Tully, Lannister, Baratheon or Tyrel) to ask for the honor of marrying his daughter to this man's son?  A letter that says "Hey, come to the counsel- I have something to ask you?"  I liked the juxtaposition, but we are never told why.  Something should have been hinted at as to why this was being done with the King acting as a servant.  

Come and Knock On Our Door: Back in the late 1970s therte was this TV show called "Three's Company" where the main story line was almost always a misunderstanding between two of the characters - usually in the guise of sexual inuendo and double entrendre.  It was ... fine... for a comedy.  But for a drama in 2022?  I did not like this sort of double-speak we had when Alicent was trying to get info on the Princess and Daemon ... and when she is doing it we know that Cristan was maybe thinking about his fuck-spree with the Princess... but ... doesn't Ser Cristan know the rumors?  Is he at all concerned that she is asking about that?  My take is that Cristan didn;t care; he knew she was likely talking about Daemon, but he had just been rejected, he was super-sad so he didn't care.  And I think I liked it... but I also think it was silly for two episodes.  

Lady Royce, We Hardly Knew Ye: Ah... I get that this was efficient, to the point and gave us a flavor of the Lady Royce... but with that said... she seemed a lot more interesting than the 3 minutes of screen time and 6 lines of dialog she got.  Oh, and it does not take "CSI: Westeros" to figure out that Daemon may have killed her.  How'd he get to the Vale?  Did he walk?  No... he probably took a dragon.  And those things are kinda noticeable.  But I get it... I do... efficient and no wasted time.  

It was a Great Wedding... Other than the Murder:  I liked how Ser Cristan just beats the fuck out of this guy who thought he would keep his secret.  Yeah... no.  Oh, you got a knife?  Adorable!  I'm a Knight of the Kingsguard- good luck, Sparky!  He just annihilates this doofus.  And ... why?  And how come, like, EVERYBODY in House Vallarion would be... miffed that a guy in their house was just stone-cold murdered at the welcoming feast? And what is the excuse going to be?  He attacked him?  Really?  And if so.. so what?  The King's court-mate (and, yeah, lover) gets Joe-Pesci'd -- I'm thinking they should have some words.  

It was a Great Wedding... Too Bad Nobody Cleaned Up:  So, I get that we have to do this quickly... but ... are you doing your vows over rotten vegetables, blood and rats?  Nobody thought to clean, or worse, do this in the morning or in the sept?  Now, the reality is that this was done for other reasons (see below), but if that's the case, be more subtle about it and not so obvious.  

Which leads to ... 

What I Did Not Like:

Captain Obvious' Exposition: This was the least subtle, most direct, most obvious episode to date and it was not well done.  We start with a pretty small hint that the King Consort is gay with discussion of foul preferences ... then his parents talk about it... fine... then, just in case we are all stupid, they have a make-out scene.  Thank God.. .for a moment we may not have known.  

Ser Tristan just says to the Queen he loves her and wants to run away with her.. okay... didn't we already sort of know that?  Isn't his affection for her pretty obvious?  Did we need this scene?  

The Queen walks into the main room late while the King is talking... so we need two characters to tell us that the King will be angry?  Yeah... we know that already; its not subtle anymore.   Why have the exposition?  

The Queen walks into the main room late while the King s talking... and she is wearing Green.  Instead of having a prior episode wherein the wra colors of House Hightower as Green is explained and given weight... we just have two characters tell us that Green is the Hightower War Colors...

The Princess had moon tea... there were several ways to see how it got to her... so the show just tells us that the King ordered it... 

Meh... 

I feel like this was the most spoon-fed episode; the least left to interpretation and the most outright told to us... down to the rats eating the dead Valarion's blood.  We get it- its an omen!  Maybe I should appreciate it because I got a few things wrong last week, but still... leave it to us to sift through this; don't have two characters talk over what we are watching.  Its hacky and lazy and this show was, up until right then, better than that.  

But with all that said, I liked it and the next half of the season looks amazing.  

 

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1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

Why the f-ck would they cut that?

I thought we would see that. Wasn't that scene in the trailer?

This season isn't bad but they are moving way too fast and I don't like it.

This isn't a spoiler because it's basic math but Laenor and Laena are going to be out in a couple of episodes.

Laena isn't going to be on her dragon enough to matter.

What? One two episodes more until she's dead?

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Also, Laena and Rhaenyra are now both morons for marrying Daemon. Everyone will hear the allegations about him killing his wife soon enough, and he isn’t exactly denying it either. No woman with half a brain would marry a guy who killed his last wife.

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I wouldn't have killed Joffrey off the way the show did. And it's not that I wanted another tourney, I just wanted something... I don't know, less obviously improbable for Cole to escape reprisal for. The attempts to reason it through as if it's no big deal to brutally murder someone who arrived in the Velaryon wedding party as their guest _and_ also throw the groom around... Self-defense? Crushing his face in his self defense? He broke his arm almost immediately when he pulled the knife, he could have left him for the king then if he was an assassin.

They could have done it in a better way, if less spectacular: have Cole, disgusted and upset, leave his post to get some fresh air on the walls... and Joffrey follows, says the same stuff, and oops, he falls to his death. Also it happens to fit nicely with a later event, kind of a foreshadowing. Hell, they could even make it more of an accident if they wanted -- he loses his temper, grabs him to tell him off, there's a struggle, Joffrey falls.

Simple. With no immediate witnesses, at best there's suspicion about the fact that Joffrey followed after him, but Cole has to just stick to his guns that he didn't see him or whatever, or maybe they talked briefly, Joffrey seemed despondent, and they parted ways, tragic accident or whatever. There's a scream outside, people come out to see, Laenor is heartbroken again, etc. 

I like a lot of what Condal and his team are doing, but the apparent overwhelming desire to introduce gory violence to the point that it strains credulity is not among the things I enjoy about it.

Rhea Royce I'm much less bothered by. There's always the possibility that the accident involved an assassin cutting her saddle girth or whatever so that she fell at an inopportune time, and that Daemon was behind it. Making him literally the direct cause of it is new, but I think they've made the point about this that their Daemon, like Jaime, generally does his own killing.

Edited by Ran
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This was a great episode but the rushed ending soured it abit for me. Overall I'm loving the show, keeps me fully engaged every Sunday. It has moments of contrivances, bordering on ridiculousness that stops it from being peak television though. Hopefully with the last final timeskip, things will settle down and the show will hit its groove.

 

I think I spotted mushroom at the feast/wedding with the band! Will need to see his member to confirm it's him though!

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