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[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


Ran
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I dunno, Mellos seems a little suspicious in the scene with Orwyle. Otto also seems quite sure the king isn't long for this world. I wouldn't be shocked if in show cannon they have been poisoning him. It wouldn't really make sense since Aegon is still a baby. But it wouldn't be the first thing to not really make sense.

So far it seems like no one is dying of natural causes on this show.

Also why was Orwyle there? Shouldn't he be in the citadel?

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3 hours ago, miyuki said:

Every episode seems to be about something rather than just checking up different locations and ending the episode with a twist that makes you want to see the next episode, which was the Game of Thrones formula.

This is not just the Game of Thrones formula, it is the formula for most American cop/law/medicine/even comedy procedurals. If the theme of the episode is say "betrayal" or "injustice", then all the characters have to face those issues irrespective of what is happening in the world, or their own personal arcs... that is just how shows are written, and what the producers believe the audiences cannot do without.  

If GOT was a K-Drama, it would be like Kingdom. There would be a lot more focus on family dynamics against individual heroes if House of the Dragon was also a K-Drama, maybe the source material is more suitable for that kind of treatment ^^ There are other formulas, such as Indian serials, but the main thing is that the adaptation is for a mass audience, and the producers are constrained in following at least some formula that works. 

Edited by slant
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44 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yeah, but is there any sign that Alicent is in love with Cole? Like, he's handsome, but there's genuinely nothing there on the screen to support it. Same with remark about filming an episode 4 scene and then justifying the idea that there may be something there by saying, well, they're fourteen, they don't platonic and romantic are separate? But in episode 4, Rhaenyra is like 18! She seems stuck thinking that all five episodes she's in are basically happening next to one another rather than with substantial jumps.

The best one can say is that she has basically developed a head canon that is not on the screen and treats it as if it were, or at least expects it to make sense when she refers to it in interviews.

Yeah, the BTS scenes cannot be considered canon for two reasons 1. They make a lot of things obvious in the story, so if something is subtle or hidden, we cannot consider them as part of the story, it is just speculation, and 2. The actors really do seem to be talking about their own approach to the character as against what the story actually is. This also extends to the set designers, makeup artists and other crew who talk about what they are doing. 

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3 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

It's true that in the first two seasons of Game of Thrones (especially the second), episodes often felt just like a collection of scenes smashed together.

The first two seasons weren't the only seasons that were like that. The last two seasons (or the last three, depending on who you ask) also felt like a collection of random scenes. The main difference between the first two and the last two seasons is that the story of first two seasons was outstanding even if the editorial and directorial decisions made by the showrunners were not. The story of the last two seasons was frankly terrible (the last episode being the worst)

Good points though.

Apar

3 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I don't think House of Dragon's lack of subtlety is one of its virtues (see also: rat symbolism).

What was the rat symbolism?

I didn't get it.

 

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19 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

You know what? I agree with that. Daemon is a really boring character. 
 

I liked this article. It nicely summarizes how cartoonishly evil he is now: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/house-of-the-dragon-daemon-matt-smith-b2167537.html?amp

it's really funny how they keep saying " well you don't know what Daemon thinks" "you don't know what Daemon will do" ... well actually 5 episodes in and we know what Daemon would do : the worst thing possible  . 

book Daemon is interesting because there is room to think he may not be responsible for some of the accusations and still see where he was coming from when when he commits the worst crimes (B&C) . but more than that , book-Daemon is competent . people wouldn't think they are losing the fight in SS because of Daemon , they'd think they are winning because of him . he displays  charm and charisma . and one would think there should have been something by this point to get Daemon from his StepStone and smash the mob mode to a Daemon who is against using dragons in war unless necessary after the time-jump. 

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15 hours ago, zajaz said:

So, the writers seem to continue going for espectacle and drama over internal consistency. Criston would have been thrown out of the Kingsguard for doing something like this in the books, right? At a wedding reception, no less. A tourney is more acceptable because "accidents happen", but... this?

Joffrey  made some pretty slanderous accusations about the heir to the throne. Maybe Cole will be chastised for ignoring due process, but down the road we're going to see people's tongues ripped out over the same crime on order of King Viserys. The fact that Joffrey spoke the truth isn't relevant and it's not a point he's going to be in any position to bring up. 

 

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

Re: Alicent, yes, just editing. Given that the chamber and body is cleared out, I'm guessing that what we're seeing is the wedding taking place chronologically after she stops Cole -- she must head out while the mess is being cleaned up, having a sense that Cole is in crisis, and then comes back for the nuptials.

But isn't this pretty stingy for such an important wedding?  Its obviously that they want the viewer to know the marriage took place and that its happening under the shadow of this cold-blooded murder.  But ... wasn't that just a bit too "on the nose?"  

And actual, royal wedding, would have been a once-in-a-lifetime event that would have attracted people from across the realm and - as Viserys himself seems to indicate - would have taken days to complete.  We have ample evidence from the books and prior show that every wedding is nuts- Sansa's wedding to Tyrion is a small event involving the eldest daughter of a disgraced house and the third child of a Lannister, a dwarf; that thing was still pretty big; Joff was married and there was a feast for thousands; even a rebel lord, Edmure Tully, had a pretty big affair (though it ended a mite bit worse) with feasting inside and outside the castle.

In our own time, Prince (now King) Charles's wedding to Princess Diana was a splendor and extravagance. 

Rhaeyena Targaryen's wedding looked like it was happening in an Arby's parking lot.  It could only have been less charming had and Elvis Impersonator done the nuptials.  I take that back- at least that guy would have had rhinestones.  

I think that in order to shove everything together and have that (again ham-fisted) shot at the end of the mice drinking blood (instead of, you know, the copious amounts of food laying in the open).  I get it, but its completely disproportionate to the story we know, the history we learn, and the House Targ itself.  

One "excuse" could be that what we saw was not the actual wedding ceremony, but instead a ritual for their betrothment; something they have to say before they actually get married and there was no time to do before.  

Otherwise... this seems... dare say ... lame... 

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Just now, frenin said:

BTW, can we already say that Alicent is getting whitewashed hard?

Like at least we get why she'll do what she'll do whereas in the books, she's just greedy.

In the books though she's described by people who are wise to portray her as a greedy grasper.

 

1 minute ago, Rockroi said:

One "excuse" could be that what we saw was not the actual wedding ceremony, but instead a ritual for their betrothment; something they have to say before they actually get married and there was no time to do before.  

Otherwise... this seems... dare say ... lame... 

Yeah, what would a Dothraki say?

They aren't Dothraki though and I think that the killing of Joffrey could have been seen as enough of a buzzkill that they decided to step things up and skip a lot of the ceremony. Considering hte way they featured jousting in the first episode it's fitting to me that they took this killing indoors. Laenor is going to be devastated and I don't think anyone would have expected him to hang around the capital for a week smiling and celebrating.

This episode could have been called 'no accident's don't happen - people get killed'  but that may be a bit wordy.

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14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, it does sound crazy when you say it out loud. This entire episode is basically Ser Crispin's terrible, horrible, no good, very bad... week.

All of the police brutality memes about Ser Cole's actions shows that authority figures rarely face consequences for their actions, even in fiction.

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51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While this is not completely nonsensical, I still found it childish that they gave Corlys this trait. He could have just as well be a guy who knew and understood the preferences of his son to the point where it was clear to him that he would not really be happy in a relationship with a woman.

That's not "childish", it is a completely believable attitude for the character to have based on the period, and adds dimensionality to the character.

29 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I dunno, Mellos seems a little suspicious in the scene with Orwyle. Otto also seems quite sure the king isn't long for this world. I wouldn't be shocked if in show cannon they have been poisoning him.

There is nothing indicating that. Not only is it not in Otto's interest for the king to die right now, but we know that he lives quite a while after this.

9 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

One "excuse" could be that what we saw was not the actual wedding ceremony, but instead a ritual for their betrothment; something they have to say before they actually get married and there was no time to do before.  

That's not an "excuse", they expressly say that the planned wedding feast will be even bigger.

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Uh, so according to Emily Carey, Alicent is in love with Criston Cole? 

https://variety.com/2022/tv/actors/house-of-the-dragon-emily-carey-alicent-1235372115/amp/

I mean, I thought it was possible for her to have a crush on Crispin (more than her being in love with Rhaenyra, tbh), so it's not out of the left field. Then again, if you were having sex with Show Viserys for years without an end in sight, wouldn't you start to fantasize about the dashing (and literal) knight in shining armor?

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8 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

There is nothing indicating that. Not only is it not in Otto's interest for the king to die right now, but we know that he lives quite a while after this.

The fact that the king recovers and lives quite a while is part of what makes me suspicious. I think the idea would be that banished from court Otto could no longer poison him, or pressure Mellos to. So he recovers somewhat until Otto's return. Otto seems to think revolt against a ruling queen is inevitable, maybe he thinks he can serve as Aegon's regent if he hastens the king's death. 

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26 minutes ago, frenin said:

BTW, can we already say that Alicent is getting whitewashed hard?

Like at least we get why she'll do what she'll do whereas in the books, she's just greedy.

Looks like I'll have to say this every week now, but anyone that trusts Alicent's portrayal as "evil power-hungry seductress" at face value should read some history books, because that's how literally every woman with agency is described by the men who wrote them until very recently. Specially if the woman happened to be on the losing side.

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25 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

In the books though she's described by people who are wise to portray her as a greedy grasper

The "arguments" she gives in the books to usurp the throne are flimsy and based on nothing we read. She's the one pushing Aegon, not because she fears an existential danger to her family but because according to her own husband, she just wants her blood on the Throne.

Book Alicent is nothing but greedy and vindictive.

Hell, this show has managed to turn Otto into a reasonable guy when it came to push Aegon's claim. Rather than him starting a mess for his own benefit.

 

@Winterfell is Burning

I don't believe her a seductress, I believe her power hungry because she literally left her husband's corpse to rot for a whole week in order to properly steal the Throne. 

This is not Maester's bias.

 

Edited by frenin
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15 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

This isn't a spoiler because it's basic math but Laenor and Laena are going to be out in a couple of episodes.

Laena isn't going to be on her dragon enough to matter.

What? One two episodes more until she's dead?

It's not just about Laena though, it's about Vhagar too. They really should establish how huge and terrifying she is. I wish they'd spent more time on establishing the dragons in general. I feel like Caraxes has a little bit of personality but that's it so far. Seems like we're going to be getting more dragon stuff in the last four episodes though. 

Edited by RumHam
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