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[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


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8 minutes ago, frenin said:

The "arguments" she gives in the books to usurp the throne are flimsy and based on nothing we read. She's the one pushing Aegon, not because she fears an existential danger to her family but because according to her own husband, she just wants her blood on the Throne.

Book Alicent is nothing but greedy and vindictive.

Hell, this show has managed to turn Otto into a reasonable guy when it came to push Aegon's claim. Rather than him starting a mess for his own benefit.

 

@Winterfell is Burning

I don't believe her a seductress, I believe her power hungry because she literally left her husband's corpse to rot for a whole week in order to properly steal the Throne. 

This is not Maester's bias.

 

Yeah, I'm not going to bother answering that since you clearly made up you mind that "Blacks=nice Greens=EEEEVIL" and that somehow fits GRRM writing. You'll probably not going to enjoy this show if you expect it though.

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9 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yeah, I'm not going to bother answering that since you clearly made up you mind that "Blacks=nice Greens=EEEEVIL" and that somehow fits GRRM writing. You'll probably not going to enjoy this show if you expect it though.

Didn't say that Blacks nice tho and I'm going to enjoy the show irregardless. Just pointing out that Alicent is effectively whitewashed. From her age, to her relationship with Rhaenyra to her being pushed against her bestie against her will. There's no such thing in book Alicent.

But arguing that using gender bias as a shield for a greedy character is just easy.

Saying that the Lannisters are power hungry assholes needlessly causing a civil war isn't advocating that the Baratheons are good fellas. You're pushing a false dichotomy that certainly didn't come out of my mouth.

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27 minutes ago, RumHam said:

The fact that the king recovers and lives quite a while is part of what makes me suspicious. I think the idea would be that banished from court Otto could no longer poison him, or pressure Mellos to. So he recovers somewhat until Otto's return. Otto seems to think revolt against a ruling queen is inevitable, maybe he thinks he can serve as Aegon's regent if he hastens the king's death. 

With Rhaenyra married to Laenor, her claim has 3 of the world's 4 dragonriders behind it, and the fourth is no friend of Otto's. This is absolutely not the time to be wanting the king to die.

If Mellos is willing to poison the king, he'd be willing to keep doing so with Otto gone.

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7 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

I am sure this is an unpopular opinion but that child actress playing Laena in episode 2 hopping on and riding the biggest dragon in Westeros would have looked absolutely ridiculous. If they did in fact shoot this scene I am glad they cut it.

I'm pretty sure that rumor is just made up and there's no such scene.

Btw I love Laenor and all but that wig is downright atrocious. Can they really not do it better?

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4 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

With Rhaenyra married to Laenor, her claim has 3 of the world's 4 dragonriders behind it, and the fourth is no friend of Otto's. This is absolutely not the time to be wanting the king to die.

If Mellos is willing to poison the king, he'd be willing to keep doing so with Otto gone.

Still wouldn't be the most ridiculous thing they've had happen so far. Also note in his scenario Otto was having him poisoned only prior to the match with Laenor being proposed. 

He seems pretty sure people would challenge Rhaenyra's claim dragons or no. 

As for Mellos who knows, I don't know enough about him. I don't think it's totally insane to think someone can be pressured by the hand of the king and then not feel that pressure when he's relieved of his office and gone. What's Otto going to do send a letter asking him to keep it up? Kinda incriminating. 

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21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Didn't say that Blacks nice tho and I'm going to enjoy the show irregardless. Just pointing out that Alicent is effectively whitewashed. From her age, to her relationship with Rhaenyra to her being pushed against her bestie against her will. There's no such thing in book Alicent.

Sure, but then again there wasn't much about Alicent in F&B to begin with. She did start her relationship with Rhaenyra on friendly terms then things soured between them. Her apparent greediness is that she wants her son to rule.

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48 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Looks like I'll have to say this every week now, but anyone that trusts Alicent's portrayal as "evil power-hungry seductress" at face value should read some history books, because that's how literally every woman with agency is described by the men who wrote them until very recently. Specially if the woman happened to be on the losing side.

Some of us happened to like ambitious schemer Alicent Hightower. She was like a more competent, less narcissistic Cersei. This Alicent may be more likable, but she’s also more miserable.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I dunno, Mellos seems a little suspicious in the scene with Orwyle. Otto also seems quite sure the king isn't long for this world. I wouldn't be shocked if in show cannon they have been poisoning him. It wouldn't really make sense since Aegon is still a baby. But it wouldn't be the first thing to not really make sense.

No, Otto just pointed out that the king is sick and will not live to old age. And he is right there. Viserys is ill, but as he says it may still be months or years until his death. And in the show it seems to be still about twenty years at this point, considering Alicent's and Rhaenyra's elder boys will be pretty old when things get ugly. And Daemon's girls, too.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Also why was Orwyle there? Shouldn't he be in the citadel?

I imagine the guy was in training with the Grand Maester before he became Archmaester. Although I'd have preferred if they had Gerardys there as an assistant maester since he is that famous healer. Rhaenyra could then later take him with her to Dragonstone.

54 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

That's not "childish", it is a completely believable attitude for the character to have based on the period, and adds dimensionality to the character.

It could have also added dimensionality to his character if a man as experienced with the ways of the world, quite literally, as Corlys Velaryon would have a better grasp of homosexuality and the true nature of his son and heir with whom he seems to have spend considerable time during the war (and, one imagines, also at home).

54 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

That's not an "excuse", they expressly say that the planned wedding feast will be even bigger.

Yes, the 'seven days of feast and jousting' are directly from the book.

In context one has to say that the explosion of violence there, possibly in a tourney, partnered with adding the beginning of Rhaenyra's passionate affair with Harwin Strong could have been a great way to end the first season. Even more so if they had included the Sealord's son, then Daemon's duel could have happened at the wedding as well.

50 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Looks like I'll have to say this every week now, but anyone that trusts Alicent's portrayal as "evil power-hungry seductress" at face value should read some history books, because that's how literally every woman with agency is described by the men who wrote them until very recently. Specially if the woman happened to be on the losing side.

The thing is, evil, power-hungry Alicent isn't even in the book. What's there is that she may not have loved Viserys, but that's all. Carey's portrayal so far is not in the slightest at odds with the book Alicent character. It could have happened all that way, especially how her marriage with Viserys came about ... which was the king's decision, not hers.

The only real change is her closeness to a Rhaenyra who is of the same age ... but in the book they are friends, too, until the birth of Aemond, with things only starting to develop into a rivalry in 111 AC, five years into the marriage.

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This Alicent may be more likable, but she’s also more miserable.

Indeed and she's only going to have it good the brief five minutes from her son's coronation to Luke's murder.

That's just sad.

Book Alicent knows what she wants and goes for it. Show Alicent is just a lamb in the middle of dragons.

 

8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Her apparent greediness is that she wants her son to rule.

I mean her greediness is not that she wants her son to rule but the extremes she goes to make it happen.

The Velaryons also wanted to rule, to what end like show Rhaenys asks I don't know, but they accepted Jaeharys's snubbed and the Great Council's.

Btw, at least someone points that there's no reason to get into a fight for the Throne when they are Uber rich and powerful. The Velaryons were almost as powerful as the Targaryens. It wasn't enough tho.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Still wouldn't be the most ridiculous thing they've had happen so far. Also note in his scenario Otto was having him poisoned only prior to the match with Laenor being proposed. 

He seems pretty sure people would challenge Rhaenyra's claim dragons or no. 

As for Mellos who knows, I don't know enough about him. I don't think it's totally insane to think someone can be pressured by the hand of the king and then not feel that pressure when he's relieved of his office and gone. What's Otto going to do send a letter asking him to keep it up? Kinda incriminating. 

Otto doesn't seem to be keen for a regency government. He rightly says that Aegon has to be prepared to rule (which they won't be able to properly do due to the boy's nature, one imagines). The guy playing adult Aegon is a really great choice, by the way, playing young Augustus in 'Domina'.

Rhaenys also told us that folks would look to Aegon as the heir once he is a man grown, not necessarily when he is a small boy. Right now Rhaenyra's place as Heir Apparent is very secure, strengthened even more due to the Velaryon match. If Viserys had died this episode Rhaenyra would have succeeded to the throne without any problems. It weakens somewhat later on as Alicent's children grow up and Aegon marries Helaena and has heirs of his own. Then he pretty much looks like a proper Targaryen king. Also, of course, that Rhaenyra resides on Dragonstone for years, that she married Daemon, and that there are some issues with her elder sons.

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3 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

I really wish Bobby B was running things,"Stop this madness in the name of your king" and a murder would not have taken place during a guest reception ceremony.

I think Robert would have loved living in the age of opulence and decadence. Talk about being born in the wrong generation.

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Hmm looking online, it’s interesting how most of the discourse for both this episode and the last one was about Criston Cole. 
 

Speaking of which, I’m glad they showed Rhaenyra looking over her shoulder for him at the wedding. Maybe she was just nervous about his reaction, but I took it to also mean that she was sorry they were no longer together, which makes her more sympathetic after last episode.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It could have also added dimensionality to his character if a man as experienced with the ways of the world, quite literally, as Corlys Velaryon would have a better grasp of homosexuality and the true nature of his son and heir with whom he seems to have spend considerable time during the war (and, one imagines, also at home).

I don't think so, that just makes him completely progressive to modern eyes, whereas in this version he's given a believable flaw.

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1 minute ago, Colonel Green said:

I don't think so, that just makes him completely progressive to modern eyes, whereas in this version he's given a believable flaw.

Corlys is a guy who has seen most of the world and many different peoples and queer customs. People who travelled the world and had contact with many different peoples and cultures are usually more tolerant and understanding of things than guys who just sit at home all day.

But then - Corlys doesn't really come across as the greatest explorer and traveller of Westeros, so that's a general flaw in his portrayal.

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8 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Before being exiled from the court, Daemon wasn't desperate. Plus, he's clearly not the kind of man that puts a lot of thought into things.

He didn't seem to be making a big moral dilemma about murdering his own wife, so I'm not sure why wasn't he arranging her death earlier, and widow himself for Rhaenyra. This is not "not putting a lot of thought into things", this is being dumb.

Unless, of course, he was just playing around with Rhaenyra, and while doing so, realised he actually wants to marry her. But that still doesn't explain why didn't he rush things once Viserys rejected his 'offer', which is something Joey would figure out too, in seconds.

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46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys is a guy who has seen most of the world and many different peoples and queer customs. People who travelled the world and had contact with many different peoples and cultures are usually more tolerant and understanding of things than guys who just sit at home all day.

But then - Corlys doesn't really come across as the greatest explorer and traveller of Westeros, so that's a general flaw in his portrayal.

Laenor refusing to have sex with the heir to the throne has never seemed realistic to me.

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Given Daemon's crystalclear goals, it's dumb he didn't arrange for his wife's death much earlier. That was always gonna be true. That was already true before this show was made. He hungers for the throne, any throne, he tries to give Myseria's child a dragon egg, establishes a kingdom in the Stepstones, Leanor, Leana and Harwin die under suspicious circumstances making his ascension possible, he uses his goldcloak connections to murder his baby cousins but all the while he waited decades for a happy accident to allow him to have any trueborn heirs at all. Just like Clubfoot just because the maesters couldn't build a consistent narrative around it, doesn't mean there's nothing there.

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