[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[Daeron the Daring]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Laenor refusing to have sex with the heir to the throne has never seemed realistic to me.

Him not taking one (or multiple ones) for the team seems unrealistic, not that he didn't want to have sex with her, whoever the she may be.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hmm looking online, it’s interesting how most of the discourse for both this episode and the last one was about Criston Cole. 

Criston is both the luckiest and unluckiest man in Westeros.

[Colonel Green]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys is a guy who has seen most of the world and many different peoples and queer customs. People who travelled the world and had contact with many different peoples and cultures are usually more tolerant and understanding of things than guys who just sit at home all day.

That's a severe over-generalization. Most people in history who have traveled the world have not gained great understanding of the nature of homosexuality by doing so.

For that matter, Corlys is hardly intolerant by Westerosi standards, given that the cultural baseline is to consider it a serious sin.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Colonel Green

[Ran]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

So the Hightower's flame is wildfire?

Normally, the flame is just a regular flame, and the heraldry in the show is actualy a change from the actual heraldry of the house, which is a regular flame as well (goes better with their motto, "We Light the Way", and their general history as avoiding a lot of the major wars). When they want to signal to their banners and Oldtown that they're gathering for war, it goes green. It's not necessarily even the case that it is wildfire, though it could be. There are chemicals and minerals that will turn a flame green.

 

21 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

He didn't seem to be making a big moral dilemma about murdering his own wife, so I'm not sure why wasn't he arranging her death earlier, and widow himself for Rhaenyra.

So, I think he's willing to kill anyone who opposes him at the drop of a hat, but Rhea just had the misfortune of being married to him. I can understand that in his mind killing her is for a long time not something he's willing to commit to. He didn't really care about a wife and heirs and such at first. But then Rhaenyra threw him for a loop, desiring her but at the same time unable or unwilling to resolve matters. So matters escalated. First he wanted an anullment, then he wanted a polygamous marriage, and now having come to being forced to return to the Vale while the prize of Rhaenyra remains, he finally commits to act. 

At least, that's my read of it.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Ran

[DMC]

I think the show makes it reasonably clear Alicent has a crush on Criston - and really why wouldn't she in her position?  It's not like she'd pine over Westerling.  But "in love," yeah, that's not supported at all by what we've seen.  Maybe it was Carey just exaggerating, but either way, just another reason to not take those after the show things too seriously.

On Corlys writing off his son's homosexuality as a "phase," this fits with many fathers and sons - especially when the father is over-proud and used to always being told he's right/never being challenged.  It makes perfect sense he'd be in denial about that, and not just for the time period.  Still happens today.

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's not necessarily even the case that it is wildfire, though it could be. There are chemicals and minerals that will turn a flame green.

Yeah I didn't get the impression it'd be wildfire.  That sounds like a waste of wildfire even if they did have access to it.  I definitely assumed they could color the fire by some other, cheaper, means.

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think Robert would have loved living in the age of opulence and decadence. Talk about being born in the wrong generation.

He would be bored by the lack of wars.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys is a guy who has seen most of the world and many different peoples and queer customs. People who travelled the world and had contact with many different peoples and cultures are usually more tolerant and understanding of things than guys who just sit at home all day.

But then - Corlys doesn't really come across as the greatest explorer and traveller of Westeros, so that's a general flaw in his portrayal.

Guys like Columbus and Vasco da Gama navigated around the world and have seen many different peoples and queer customs, I'd hardly call them tolerant, even for their time standards.

Besides, it doesn't mean Corlys is intolerant or doesn't accept other people being gay, it's his son he has a myopic view of.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

think the show makes it reasonably clear Alicent has a crush on Criston

Can you explain when? Other than the very first episode at the tourney, I can't think of anything. Does she have any scenes with him, even, other than the first episode and this one? 

[Winterfell is Burning]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Can you explain when? Other than the very first episode at the tourney, I can't think of anything. Does she have any scenes with him, even, other than the first episode and this one? 

  Yeah, I don't see it either.

  

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Laenor refusing to have sex with the heir to the throne has never seemed realistic to me.

Who knows if he didn't try? It just obviously didn't work.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think the show makes it reasonably clear Alicent has a crush on Criston.

I don't know, last episode made it seem like she had a crush on Daemon.

[Ran]

Just now, Winterfell is Burning said:

Who knows if he didn't try? It just obviously didn't work.

Yeah, I don't see why people are assuming they didn't make the effort. But if you hate it and she can't get into it because you hate it, there's going to be a point where repeated failure to get her pregnant will just wear at you.

And for all we know, he was infertile, if we believe (as I think most do) that Addam and Alyn were really Corlys's bastards.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think the show makes it reasonably clear Alicent has a crush on Criston - and really why wouldn't she in her position?  It's not like she'd pine over Westerling.  But "in love," yeah, that's not supported at all by what we've seen.  Maybe it was Carey just exaggerating, but either way, just another reason to not take those after the show things too seriously.

Well, she is a) a teenager and b) an actress. Her describing a crush as “in love” isn’t too big of a stretch. It’s also possible that she was able to read the scripts for the rest of the season and there’s more hints of affection down the line.

So I’m definitely open to the idea that Alicent fancies Criston, but I hadn’t picked up on it myself. What made it obvious to you?

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

Normally, the flame is just a regular flame, and the heraldry in the show is actualy a change from the actual heraldry of the house, which is a regular flame as well (goes better with their motto, "We Light the Way", and their general history as avoiding a lot of the major wars). When they want to signal to their banners and Oldtown that they're gathering for war, it goes green. It's not necessarily even the case that it is wildfire, though it could be. There are chemicals and minerals that will turn a flame green.

 

So, I think he's willing to kill anyone who opposes him at the drop of a hat, but Rhea just had the misfortune of being married to him. I can understand that in his mind killing her is for a long time not something he's willing to commit to. He didn't really care about a wife and heirs and such at first. But then Rhaenyra threw him for a loop, desiring her but at the same time unable or unwilling to resolve matters. So matters escalated. First he wanted an anullment, then he wanted a polygamous marriage, and now having come to being forced to return to the Vale while the prize of Rhaenyra remains, he finally commits to act. 

At least, that's my read of it.

In your opinion, did the switch between actresses for Alicent and Rhaenyra work well? Some reviews said it was seamless, but others claimed they felt like completely different characters. Just looking at the trailer, older Alicent appears to have different mannerisms than younger Alicent.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In your opinion, did the switch between actresses for Alicent and Rhaenyra work well?

Alicent's transition is more seamless to us and I think it works very well. You can see how she's become the person she is in the intervening years. I think Rhaenyra is a bigger jump. Milly's Rhaenyra, being focused more, makes a more distinct impression and Emma's Rhaenyra is also quite distinct but doesn't feel so natural as an evolution. A lot of this is the writing, though, and the decision to make this whole "I don't want to have kids, I don't want to be a mother" thing and then repudiate it very, very clearly in the very start of the new episode (and it's a great start, with a great performance). There's a lot of question marks around how you get from A to B, and we can all find ways to fill them in, but whatever the answer is, it does seem like Rhaenyra is a very changed person. 

I think they may have made a mistake not having the actors work together at least a little bit, but that said I really think after this next episode you really won't think about it anymore.

 

[Frey family reunion]

44 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

That's a severe over-generalization. Most people in history who have traveled the world have not gained great understanding of the nature of homosexuality by doing so.

For that matter, Corlys is hardly intolerant by Westerosi standards, given that the cultural baseline is to consider it a serious sin.

Is homosexuality considered a sin in Westeros?  I haven't seen it specifically defined as such.  

The takeaway I have is that Westeros really doesn't have a concept of a sexual identity.  At least not in the books.  I think there seems to be fairly nonchalant view of a person's sexual preferences (at least for the nobility).  I'm not sure anyone seems to really care that much as long as it doesn't get in the way of performing your duty to your House.

Now the commonfolk may have different issues.  We're not given much to go on there.

[DMC]

27 minutes ago, Ran said:

Can you explain when? Other than the very first episode at the tourney, I can't think of anything. Does she have any scenes with him, even, other than the first episode and this one? 

24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So I’m definitely open to the idea that Alicent fancies Criston, but I hadn’t picked up on it myself. What made it obvious to you?

Well, no, I specifically had in mind the tourney during the pilot and this episode.  I don't recall them having any scenes together in the middle three episodes either.  Considering the latitude I'm willing to give the show due to the time-jumps/constraints, I think that's sufficient.  Especially how delicately she questions him in this episode before he confesses to something she didn't even anticipate.

27 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't know, last episode made it seem like she had a crush on Daemon.

I think she has a healthy appreciation of Daemon's true nature fairly quickly.  She's her father's daughter, after all.  And I viewed her concern in her interrogation in episode 4 to genuinely be about Rhaenyra, not Daemon.

[Daeron the Daring]

21 minutes ago, Ran said:

So, I think he's willing to kill anyone who opposes him at the drop of a hat, but Rhea just had the misfortune of being married to him. I can understand that in his mind killing her is for a long time not something he's willing to commit to. He didn't really care about a wife and heirs and such at first. But then Rhaenyra threw him for a loop, desiring her but at the same time unable or unwilling to resolve matters. So matters escalated. First he wanted an anullment, then he wanted a polygamous marriage, and now having come to being forced to return to the Vale while the prize of Rhaenyra remains, he finally commits to act. 

At least, that's my read of it.

Well, considering that he always cared about a wife and heirs in the books (ever since Mysaria fell pregnant, at least), we really can't begin anything there. The books are different, but Daemon does free himself here for Rhaenyra. He could've dealt with the whole thing and remarry by the time Ser Gerold Royce shows up accusing him of anything if he wanted to. 

I guess this is what happens when you rip a character from it's development, that, to be fair, is barely shown in the source material too. Murdering his wife is a sad necessity with no guilt attached to it, but he's unwilling to expend Rhaenyra for his own goals? Sounds crazy to me, that's not how being self-interested should work. And if he wanted to evade killing Rhea, at least make the effort worth it, cause this was entirely pointless this way. 

What I'm saying is that Daemon as a character could've made much more sense with different portrayals, and this situation wasn't the first time that feeling got reinforced in me.

[C.T. Phipps]

Like I said, I believe Daemon only decided to kill his wife in that moment.

People think Daemon is a planner and he's absolutely not.

[Ran]

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

Especially how delicately she questions him in this episode before he confesses to something she didn't even anticipate.

Ah, I didn't at all see her questioning as being about her feelings/crush, but ... well, talking about Rhaenyra screwing around with her uncle was something that she, a pious and proper woman, would find difficult to discuss with anyone, much less a man, much less a man who is Rhaenyra's sworn protector.

I feel like at least giving her some discreet admiring glances to him in the third and fourth episodes would have helped, but they basically make the point of never having him around when she and Rhaenyra are in the scene together, near as I can tell. I too am very forgiving on the short cuts they have to take, but "I'm in love with/have a crush on Cristin Cole" is a bit much. Fortunately, this is just the actor's take and the fact that no one has raised it in the Inside the Episode's before suggests it's not something they intended to embed into the show but rather her own reasoning for her character.

  

18 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

He could've dealt with the whole thing and remarry by the time Ser Gerold Royce shows up accusing him of anything if he wanted to. 

I don't think he wants to marry anyone but Rhaenyra at this particular juncture. Hence their conversation when dancing.  I really don't see the issue about development of the character on the show, you can see how his shifting fortunes and his various attempts to get out or around the marriage being repudiated changes his approach.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Ran

[The Bard of Banefort]

15 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, considering that he always cared about a wife and heirs in the books (ever since Mysaria fell pregnant, at least), we really can't begin anything there. The books are different, but Daemon does free himself here for Rhaenyra. He could've dealt with the whole thing and remarry by the time Ser Gerold Royce shows up accusing him of anything if he wanted to. 

I guess this is what happens when you rip a character from it's development, that, to be fair, is barely shown in the source material too. Murdering his wife is a sad necessity with no guilt attached to it, but he's unwilling to expend Rhaenyra for his own goals? Sounds crazy to me, that's not how being self-interested should work. And if he wanted to evade killing Rhea, at least make the effort worth it, cause this was entirely pointless this way. 

What I'm saying is that Daemon as a character could've made much more sense with different portrayals, and this situation wasn't the first time that feeling got reinforced in me.

I would have loved it if we saw more of Rhea and she and Daemon had more of a quippy relationship. It would have been funny if Daemon had been paired with someone who could outwit him. Plus it would have added some levity.

[C.T. Phipps]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

I would have loved it if we saw more of Rhea and she and Daemon had more of a quippy relationship. It would have been funny if Daemon had been paired with someone who could outwit him. Plus it would have added some levity.

I actually like that it implies that Rhea's quippy, aggressive, and free spirited style is why Daemon HATES her.

He can't dominate or intimidate or impress her.

So she became his "Bronze Bitch."

[nara]

23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Is homosexuality considered a sin in Westeros?  I haven't seen it specifically defined as such.  

The takeaway I have is that Westeros really doesn't have a concept of a sexual identity.  At least not in the books.  I think there seems to be fairly nonchalant view of a person's sexual preferences (at least for the nobility).  I'm not sure anyone seems to really care that much as long as it doesn't get in the way of performing your duty to your House.

Now the commonfolk may have different issues.  We're not given much to go on there.

Didn’t the High Septon nab Loras Tyrell for it in GoT?