[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, this seems to be putting on some rose-colored glasses IRT Corlys.  He traveled the world, yes, but he also became the richest man in Westeros based on those journeys.  That almost certainly entails some boot-stomping of such exotic places and cultures.  I agree he shouldn't be compared to Columbus or de Gama, but he's also clearly no saint.

Corlys' second and his final voyage (the latter most of all) were greatly profitable ... his search for a northern passage through the ice and his voyage along the northern coastline of Essos seem to have been very dangerous and costly. That's the desire of a man who wants to see the world. A man who wants to make profit would find easier and less dangerous ways.

The entire characterization of the man is that of a man who wants to see and explore new things ... in this sense he and Elissa are both very much akin to many of the other explorer figures in George's earlier works - the astronaut from 'Slide Show', the young narrator of 'Night Shift', the protagonist of 'The Stone City', etc.

Of that there is pretty much nothing in the character as written in the episode ... aside from, perhaps, him championing his wife's claim. Although even that comes across as somewhat petty and weird if his wife herself has long gotten over this 'slight'.

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

All that aside, Corlys clearly IS very progressive by Westerosi standards, both in the books and the show.  However, I think your blind spot is assuming just because someone has a progressive view on homosexuality he still wouldn't be in denial about his own son.  It's fundamentally different.

I'm not saying this portrayal of Corlys is unrealistic, I merely indicated that I didn't like this take. Corlys could just as well have been a father who actually knew his son well enough to understand that he would never get much out of a relationship with a woman. Especially, you know, in light of the fact that he was in love with a man at that particular time and may have been so in the past. Not to mention speculative homoerotic/homosexual experiences Corlys either made or witnessed during his many voyages. Women usually are a rare sight on a ship in a medieval setting, and one imagines that folks needed to stay warm ... and more than warm on the Ice Wolf.

The Corlys as portrayed would more likely be a man pushing Laenor to live with his wife - which didn't happen in the book.

17 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Wait...what?

Oh, well:

Quote

There have been reports that we are going to get a scene in the next episode where Alicent gives Larys a good view of her feet so he can masturbate on them while she, well, milks him for information.

No idea if that episode makes it into the show.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Lord Varys

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys' second and his final voyage (the latter most of all) were greatly profitable ... his search for a northern passage through the ice and his voyage along the northern coastline of Essos seem to have been very dangerous and costly. That's the desire of a man who wants to see the world. A man who wants to make profit would find easier and less dangerous ways.

Again, while he certainly has an "explorer's spirit," you don't become the richest man in the world by traveling the world unless you also exploited some people.  It's naive to think otherwise, in the books or the show.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

aside from, perhaps, him championing his wife's claim. Although even that comes across as somewhat petty and weird if his wife herself has long gotten over this 'slight'.

Yeah, definitely agree here, that scene certainly came off like it was more about him and his pride than actually caring about his wife and/or Rhaenyra's claims.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not saying this portrayal of Corlys is unrealistic, I merely indicated that I didn't like this take. Corlys could just as well have been a father who actually knew his son well enough to understand that he would never get much out of a relationship with a woman. Especially, you know, in light of the fact that he was in love with a man at that particular time and may have been so in the past. Not to mention speculative homoerotic/homosexual experiences Corlys either made or witnessed during his many voyages. Women usually are a rare sight on a ship in a medieval setting, and one imagines that folks needed to stay warm ... and more than warm on the Ice Wolf.

This seems to be you taking a lot from the books that isn't really there and instead you've developed into your own headcanon - particularly regarding his relationship to his son.  Which, let's face it, makes sense it wasn't that close considering his responsibilities and travels.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

BTW, can we already say that Alicent is getting whitewashed hard?

After this episode, I'm actually rooting for the Greens, which I never imagined would happen. They all came across as much more sympathetic sympathetic than the Blacks here, even Otto.

[C.T. Phipps]

31 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

For what it’s worth, Aeron is clearly ashamed of having been abused by Euron in the books, but whether that’s because of homosexuality, incest, or the loss of autonomy is hard to discern.

I mean the answer there is probably, "Yes."

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, RhaenysBee said:

Okay, Joffrey dies. Why isn’t Cole arrested or even executed on site? How does he get to that tree WITH HIS WEAPON? He just killed a noble guest at the royal wedding! He is a murderer and a liability to the safety of anybody in the Red Keep. Why is he alone at the tree and why does the queen just walk up to him? What fresh hell is this?

This is pretty much something that has inspired a huge chunk of black comedy police brutality memes on R/Freefolk, R/HouseOfTheDragon and Twitter.

I admit to participating in them.

But in seriousness, Alicent will undoubtedly protect him and any number of claims would get him off the hook.

[sifth]

Joffrey's death doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Cole is allowed to beat a man to death, unprovoked, in a group of hundreds of people.

[Ingelheim]

One question for all of you guys: how do you think the screenwriters are deciding on the most controversial and ambiguous parts of the FYB story? We now have confirmation in HOTD that Cole slept with Rhaenyra and then confessesd his love for her in this episode and asked her to run away, while in the book the question is left open.

Are they consulting with George? Are they portraying this specific events as they see fit? 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Ingelheim

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Again, while he certainly has an "explorer's spirit," you don't become the richest man in the world by traveling the world unless you also exploited some people.  It's naive to think otherwise, in the books or the show.

Sure enough. He is a filthy feudal lord and should be cast down by the people.

Corlys' riches, though, come pretty much only from direct or indirect trade - literally buying ships to buy and transport exotic luxury goods and, one imagines, establishing profitable trade relations with various merchant princes in the east.

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, definitely agree here, that scene certainly came off like it was more about him and his pride than actually caring about his wife and/or Rhaenyra's claims.

I understand how Laenor marrying Rhaenyra kind of rectify the mistake, since it is going to make Laenor Rhaenyra's consort and eventually sees Rhaenys' bloodline on the Iron Throne ... but that really should have been her issue, not his. Corlys could have easily enough preferred it that Laenor remain at Driftmark to learn how to be a good lord and eventually succeed his father in that capacity - as the prince consort he would at best be an absent Lord of Driftmark later on, being forced to sit at his wife's side.

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

This seems to be you taking a lot from the books that isn't really there and instead you've developed into your own headcanon - particularly regarding his relationship to his son.  Which, let's face it, makes sense it wasn't that close considering his responsibilities and travels.

Well, I'm not imagining things there. I go by the fact that, in the book, Laenor lives with his parents at High Tide. Even if they were rarely speaking to each other (and nothing indicates this), they would get reports and news about their son's behavior and preferences from their servants and subjects.

In the show, though, Laenor Velaryon is part of Corlys' years-long Stepstones campaign - they spend a lot of time together there, that's confirmed in the show. So it stands to reason the guy should understand his son better than he apparently does.

Timeline-wise all of Corlys' big voyages took place before his marriage in 90 AC. In 92 AC Corlys resigns as Master of Ships in the book - afterwards he is just a rich gentleman in early retirement. He still builds ships and stuff, but he does this on his own island which isn't that big.

Could still be he is in deny about Laenor's preferences ... but it certainly doesn't have to be nor do I have to like it ;-).

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

One question for all of you guys: how do you think the screenwriters are deciding on the most controversial and ambiguous parts of the FYB story? We now have confirmation in HOTD that Cole slept with Rhaenyra and then confessesd his love for her in this episode and asked her to run away, while in the book the question is left open.

Are they consulting with George? Are they portraying this specific events as they see fit? 

None of the versions in the books claim they consummated their relationship. In Eustace’s version, Cole proposed marriage and Rhaenyra refused; in Mushroom’s version, Rhaenyra tried to seduce Cole and failed. Arys Oakheart is the only one who mentions the possibility that Cole was a jilted lover.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Could still be he is in deny about Laenor's preferences ... but it certainly doesn't have to be nor do I have to like it ;-).

Fair enough.  TBC I wasn't saying Corlys wouldn't be aware of Laenor's preferences and/or behavior (obviously he is!), just that I see no reason to assume that the two were particularly close - in the books or the show.

[Ingelheim]

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

None of the versions in the books claim they consummated their relationship. In Eustace’s version, Cole proposed marriage and Rhaenyra refused; in Mushroom’s version, Rhaenyra tried to seduce Cole and failed. Arys Oakheart is the only one who mentions the possibility that Cole was a jilted lover.

My bad, I forgot exactly how it had happened in the books. Anyway, why do you think they are making these choices? Just for drama purposes? Because it's definitely important to the overall plot of the Dance whether these events actually happened or not.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Ingelheim

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

My bad, I forgot exactly how it had happened in the books. Anyway, why do you think they are making these choices? Just for drama purposes? Because it's definitely important to the overall plot of the Dance whether these events actually happened or not.

My guess is, they're going with the version of events they liked the most. I mean the way the book is written, it's sort of impossible to do a proper adaptation of, unless you do several important scenes, like the ending to the movie Clue. "It might of happened this way", but "It also might have happened this other way".

[RumHam]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

My guess is, they're going with the version of events they liked the most. I mean the way the book is written, it's sort of impossible to do a proper adaptation of, unless you do several important scenes, like the ending to the movie Clue. "It might of happened this way", but "It also might have happened this other way".

Should have made it a Netflix style choose your own adventure!

[DMC]

22 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean the way the book is written, it's sort of impossible to do a proper adaptation of, unless you do several important scenes, like the ending to the movie Clue. "It might of happened this way", but "It also might have happened this other way".

Even Clue had a definitive ending!  "But Here's What REALLY Happened:"

 

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Even Clue had a definitive ending!  "But Here's What REALLY Happened:"

 

I mean if you're talking about the version you watch at home, sure. However if you saw the film in the theater, you were stuck with one of the three endings, given to you. It was done as a stunt, so people would go back and see the film more than once.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

I mean if you're talking about the version you watch at home, sure. However if you saw the film in the theater, you were stuck with one of the three endings, given to you.

Gotcha.  I was seven months old when it came out in theaters, so I've only seen the version with all three endings.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

56 minutes ago, sifth said:

Joffrey's death doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Cole is allowed to beat a man to death, unprovoked, in a group of hundreds of people.

Just like the Blackwood kid killing the Bracken, and people beating each other to death at the tourney. I guess the whole "decadence" stuff was invented for the show to make things more... cinematic?

[chrisdaw]

7 hours ago, slant said:

Really? This episode went increasingly haywire as it progressed! But okay, what all did you like? 

The character work is great. This show reminds me somewhat of Wolf Hall in how it isn't handholding, it gives you a character's nature, mindset and then an action. That Cole was falling apart under the shame of his situation was portrayed well, him lashing out violently against someone who is the mirror embodiment of his own shame and provoking him (to Cole's mind) isn't only believable but a fitting climax. He's a violent man, he doesn't know court and intrigue, secrets and leverage, he's long been prepared to die and knows only one may to meet a threat. He broke and did what he does.

Criticisms like why didn't someone stop him are stupid, it's turmoil and chaos, no-one saw what preceded the pummelling and the assumption of bystanders would be that the KG has good reason to be doing what he's doing. He is authority, and the other people with the authority in the room can't see shit and have their own problems going on, like where is the princess and the king fainting. The KG standing around scratching their asses and not going and getting Rhaenyra wasn't right though.

Alicent work is strong. Not only can she not trust Rhaenyra, she can't trust Viserys. From her point of view there's a clique and she's not in it, she's an island of one. She gave up her whole life for those children, and what Otto said holds completely true, and the more she'd think about it the worse it'd be. In a world without Viserys what is Rhaenyra truly capable of? What is Daemon capable of? Even if wanton Rhaenyra who she doesn't really know isn't disposed to kill her children, when men rally to Aegon what will all those in Rhaenyra's ear tell her to do?

The "ambiguous" Daemon/Rhea scene just doesn't work. But it does work that Daemon went there, tenuously, to kill her. He's loose, he's lost Viserys to the duty, to the realm, to "them", and now Rhaenyra is following Viserys. He's half out of his mind here as to what to do and has half a mad plan, kill his wife then steal Rhaenyra away. It was well done how they write what he's thinking, what he desires, through Rhaenyra's mocking, but as they've shown is his way he can only ever go half cocked.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The KG standing around scratching their asses and not going and getting Rhaenyra wasn't right though.

Yeah it's pretty pathetic Lyonel had to activate Harwin-bot in order to secure Rhaenyra.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

My bad, I forgot exactly how it had happened in the books. Anyway, why do you think they are making these choices? Just for drama purposes? Because it's definitely important to the overall plot of the Dance whether these events actually happened or not.

They probably went with whatever they believed made for the best television.