[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Joffrey's death doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Cole is allowed to beat a man to death, unprovoked, in a group of hundreds of people.

They're sprinkle some milk of the poppy on him.

BAD KNIGHTS, BAD KNIGHTS
Whatcha gonna do Whatcha Gonna do when they come for you

[lakin1013]

15 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

 

Alicent work is strong. Not only can she not trust Rhaenyra, she can't trust Viserys. 

 

I am unclear why Alicent is not trusting Viserys.  She knows for a fact that her father got wrong information and got fired for it.  She knows Rh did not have sex with Daemon.  Sure, Rh was not forthcoming with the actual truth, but she answered the questions as were posed. She knows Viserys sent the moon tea to Rh just to be careful.  I felt he did that out of self-interest and protecting his daughter.  Why would Alicent suddenly not trust her husband? 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Why would Alicent suddenly not trust her husband? 

While he didn't outright lie to her, she was clearly unaware of him sending the moon tea, which is a lie of omission and..well, I could see most people in a relationship getting pissed about.  Especially on top of her father being sacked over it.  I agree with chrisdaw - the episode did a great job demonstrating Alicent felt isolated and out of the loop which subsequently made her gravitate towards Criston (as well as heed her father's advice).

[chrisdaw]

5 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I am unclear why Alicent is not trusting Viserys.  She knows for a fact that her father got wrong information and got fired for it.  She knows Rh did not have sex with Daemon.  Sure, Rh was not forthcoming with the actual truth, but she answered the questions as were posed. She knows Viserys sent the moon tea to Rh just to be careful.  I felt he did that out of self-interest and protecting his daughter.  Why would Alicent suddenly not trust her husband? 

She thought she and Viserys were of one mind, Daemon can't be trusted but Rhaenyra can, this shit is not in her nature. Like she thought Viserys and herself were the level headed team with the solutions here. Finding out he sent the moon tea means that no, not only is fucking about within Rhaenyra's nature but Viserys full well knows it is in her nature, and simply accepts she is what she is. It's just stupid little Alicent that's behind the times here and needs to get up to speed.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I mean if you're talking about the version you watch at home, sure. However if you saw the film in the theater, you were stuck with one of the three endings, given to you. It was done as a stunt, so people would go back and see the film more than once.

That's wild to learn.  More movies should do this.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

One question for all of you guys: how do you think the screenwriters are deciding on the most controversial and ambiguous parts of the FYB story? We now have confirmation in HOTD that Cole slept with Rhaenyra and then confessesd his love for her in this episode and asked her to run away, while in the book the question is left open.

Are they consulting with George? Are they portraying this specific events as they see fit? 

They've definitely consulted GRRM, at the very least. The general assumption is that he approved every decision, but we don't actually know if that's true.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[lakin1013]

25 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

She thought she and Viserys were of one mind,

Odd that.  I didn't think she even really liked her husband. I concluded she felt him dull. I also think sometimes parents do things for one child and don't mention it to the second wife, or stepmother. 

I do agree the moon tea pushed her over.  But again, if she had made a friend of the kitchen staff, after bearing that one son, she could have stopped having any more kids (something Cersei would have done). She just seemed so passive and trapped to me.  Rh, bitch that she is, is at least lively. 

 Based on posts here, Alicent will change soon.  Good, I guess. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

To harp on Daemon killing Rhea a bit, the problem is there’s really no coming back from that. Nothing Daemon does will make up for him killing his wife with his own two hands. It just too vile and too real. Daenerys incinerated an entire city and it still felt skeevy for Jon to kill her. And if Rhaenyra marries this guy knowing about the murder (Daemon will deny it but his family should see right through this) then she lacks both the brains and the judgement to be in charge of anything. What an absolute waste of a character’s journey.

Edited September 25, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[Back door hodor]

So regarding Daemon and Rhea Royce....

I rather enjoyed the dark comedy aspect of Daemon having a wife that was never shown, I read fire and blood and I admit I  sometimes got caught up and forgot Deamon had a wife until it was mentioned.

That being said this was something I was pretty sure he was innocent of, based on fab, but I don't hate the change, I just prefer they would have kept the joke going, and had Rhea die offscreen.

Allicnet comes off terribly in this episode, seems like a jealous teenager.( which she basically is to be fair).

....but not a bad as ser Crispin(I know his real name), my man just couldn't keep his cool

 

[C.T. Phipps]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

To harp of Daemon killing Rhea a bit, the problem is there’s really no coming back from that. Nothing Daemon does will make up for him killing his wife with his own two hands. It just too vile and too real. Daenerys incinerated an entire city and it still felt skeevy for Jon to kill her. And if Rhaenyra marries this guy knowing about the murder (Daemon will deny it but his family should see right through this) then she lacks both the brains and the judgement to be in charge of anything. What an absolute waste of a character’s journey.

It actually gives me hope that we'll now get Blood and Cheese and no takebacks. Nope, Daemon will hear his wife is upset and straight up have a child murdered for her.

The things we do for love.

[RhaenysBee]

6 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Odd that.  I didn't think she even really liked her husband. I concluded she felt him dull. I also think sometimes parents do things for one child and don't mention it to the second wife, or stepmother. 

I do agree the moon tea pushed her over.  But again, if she had made a friend of the kitchen staff, after bearing that one son, she could have stopped having any more kids (something Cersei would have done). She just seemed so passive and trapped to me.  Rh, bitch that she is, is at least lively. 

 Based on posts here, Alicent will change soon.  Good, I guess. 

Well that’s the whole point, she’s not Cersei and the fact that this didn’t even occur to her (or so the show would have us believe) is what separates her from Cersei. And yes, she is the non-sassy and non-rebellious young female character who is passive and trapped but doesn’t have the badassness and immorality to do something about it. And bless her for that and the writer who wrote her that way (even if that strays from the source material). It’s not realistic or necessary that everybody is a Cersei or a Rhaenyra and I dearly hope that Alicent won’t turn into either of them. 

[EggBlue]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In the show, though, Laenor Velaryon is part of Corlys' years-long Stepstones campaign - they spend a lot of time together there, that's confirmed in the show. So it stands to reason the guy should understand his son better than he apparently does.

here's the thing, knowing about something isn't the same as understanding it . even today there are parents who may seem completely ok with homosexuality , accept it , even have homosexual friends and acquaintances , but when it turns out their kid is gay , they find it difficult to understand and accept it . Corlys may be aware of sexual preferences or even accepting of it considering his journeys but Laenor is his son . he is clearly in denial about his son . it's just wishful thinking that now that he'll have a wife and Rhaenyra has grown comely , Laenor may come out of his "phase".  Steostone campaign where there is shortage of women and there is one comely ser Joffrey nearby actually make it easier for Corlys to stay in his denial . 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Could still be he is in deny about Laenor's preferences ... but it certainly doesn't have to be nor do I have to like it ;-).

fair enough.

 

regarding Joffrey's death , the main problems seemed to be that 1. they have gone so far in "decadence" theme that only a public brutal death made sense to them (which I don't agree with) 2. they think about their show in comparison to GoT and keeping its traditions too much . 

but even if they had to keep with the brutal public murder , they could execute it a lot better . 

• first of all , there shouldn't have been so much time between the conversation and murder , editing wise. the conversation should have happened right before Daemon-Rhaenyra . 
• Laenor should have never reached them and he most definitely shouldn't have received a punch from a guy who technically would be his protector in 7 days! 
• kingsgaurd and guards should have been there ,confused . thinking that Cole is doing his job. we should have seen them taking the royals like Rhaenyra , Daemon , Laenor and Laena to safety instead of leaving them to their own devices . Rhaenyra getting cramped by the crowd could kinda work but throwing Laenor on the table was just idiotic .
• the "fight" should have been a bit two sided to create confusion . what they portrayed wasn't a fight .
• Criston should have either had gauntlets , making Joffrey die sooner , or they could have shown his madness moment with another way like suffocating . Joffrey should have died somewhat fast and before Cole comes into his senses . it should have been a momentary snap . 

 

Regarding Daemon , I agree with @The Bard of Banefort. there's no coming back from that . B&CH moment could be put into category of "things we do for love" , explained by revenge desire of a grieving step-father . Daemon would still be a villain but you could argue that .killing his wife out of greed , though was just horrible ,not to mention, stupid because he didn't do anything he wanted afterwards.  considering this guy will be in the show almost to the bitter end and there's another one of him in the making , makes the whole thing frustrating! if they're smart they should revisit this moment , show Rhaenyra in denial about Daemon's actions , only to realize what a monster she has married after B&Ch . or something like that . 

[Denam_Pavel]

I think it's important to note that the Lannister bros seemingly got into the action and were also pushing Leanor around and given that the people at the table couldn't see anything, they were likely the witnesses whose account was given the most weight, and probably took Criston's side being soon to be Greens and all.

[RhaenysBee]

Allow me to indulge in a defending Alicent spree. (Not to say that anybody is wrong to perceive and interpret her differently, or to dislike the archetype. Each to their own, everybody is perfectly free to dislike something that I happen to find likable. I also didn’t read any of the source material, but if you did and that affects your interpretation and perception and reception of the character, that’s 100% valid as well because this is an adaptation after all. That’s all the disclaimers I can think of.) 

 

So what I understand is that Alicent was a different character from Rhaenyra from day 1. She is the good girl, who does her studying, cares about her friend and complies with whatever her shitty father tells her because A. she has that kind of personality B. she grew up with those values C. she doesn’t seem to have any immediate family aside from her father and is entirely dependent on him. 

when she is told to comfort the king, she is visibly uncomfortable with the idea and why wouldn’t she be. It’s so soon after the queen’s death who we have seen to be kind to her, she’s very young and Viserys could be her father, and she’s best friends with his daughter. But she does it because her father says so and she is actually comfortable around Viserys, more so than around her own father, as seen via the cuticle scratching (which was a nice touch). She didn’t try to seduce the king, she was just herself, a caring, warm, dutiful and compliant young woman, which happens to be Viserys’s type as Aemma was depicted in much the same light based on what little we saw of her. 

She had no say in the king’s choice and unfortunately we skipped through just how much she must have struggled with the new identity of queen and how it alienated her from people. This is hinted at later, but a huge missed opportunity. Rhaenyra is (understandably) a brat about the situation, but Alicent doesn’t get to be a brat because she suddenly had to grow up, mature even more and she became a mother and assumed a new set of duties, expectations and a shitload of pressure of her own - nearly alone aside from her father who was only using her to build his own sand castle, and entirely without moral support for what we know, because I doubt that off screen Otto held her hand while she cried because she felt overwhelmed. That is strength. Not the watch-me-daddy-because-I-won’t-won’t-won’t type of strength, but unthinkable resilience and steadfastness.

And while she was coveted and celebrated for giving a son to Viserys, that came with more bad blood with her friend, who was suddenly her child, not only in a legal sense but in terms of behavior as well. Alicent didn’t get to stride off and huff and puff when she didn’t like something. And she tolerated all this because that’s the kind of personality she has and that’s the kind of care and trust she had for Rhaenyra. She trusted that under the childishness Rhaenyra was still her friend, that’s why she didn’t want Aegon to be named heir. To keep her friend, so she could count on Rhaenyra the way she could count on her not pushing Aegon. As someone not well versed in politics, it’s forgivable and understandable that Alicent wouldn’t (want to) see how the rest of the realm would feel (and act) about the matters she saw it as an interpersonal conflict to resolve for which she did her part. 

From the same sense of care and duty she tended to Viserys in his sickness even though it probably repelled her, as she was never in love with, least of all attracted to him. But there seemed to be mutual care, understanding and regard between them if nothing else. The fact that this isn’t enough for happiness for 16-20 year old Alicent is understandable. Yet she is not complaining and she’s not wavering, which is again, strengths. I really would (have) like(d) to see if there was any joy for her in all this, either in the children or anything else, because it is realistic that there would be a flower or two to smell even in a meadow flooded with shit. It appeared that she found no particular joy in motherhood or that the screaming baby was only adding to the stress of political pressure of inheritance, sick husband and general sense of loss over her youth and dreams (which she sure had). 

When suspicion arose that Rhaenyra slept with someone, Alicent understandable felt that this friend she cared for and stuck up for (in the business of inheritance), just shit all over everything she stood for and represented as a value. She felt jealous that Rhaenyra may have had a choice she never did or would. And she felt worried about this person who she still regarded and trusted as a friend. Then Rhaenyra lied to her face when she wanted that trust returned and would have offered genuine help. 

When you sacrifice your entire life for duty, it gets really difficult to see that some people refuse to do even the one job they have and still get away unscathed. It makes you angry and resentful and humiliated. Especially if it all goes behind your back when you offered only help and honesty to both Rhaenyra and Viserys, who both withheld truth from you. What more could you have done to get more than nothing? Especially if it costs your father’s position, who is shitty and stupid but still your father and only blood relation in the entire city with some semblance of concern for your future. Because clearly your friend doesn’t care and your husband will pick his daughter over you and yours any day and not even give you the respect of an honest discussion about it. 

At this point Alicent is wronged, resentful, hurt, angry and more alone tHan ever before. And her cup that’s been filling for years with Rhaenyra’s shit and Viserys’s lacking as a husband just spilled and she no longer cares. If at this point she says I can play dirty too, that’s understandable. If she takes the high ground, I will salute her all the more for it. She could have told on Cole and projected her rage onto him and nobody would have batted an eye. But she knew full well that Cole was as naive and compliant as she was (until he became a psychopath and minced that guy’s face at the wedding), and Rhaenyra took advantage of his trust in her as she did of Alicent’s trust in her and so she handled him with grace. I hope she will continue to take the high ground, though I don’t think the show will go that way.

Alicent is the archetype we no longer see on tv because every female character must be physically capable and skilled, full of sass piss and vinegar, political prowess and drive to achieve their end no matter the means. This is unrealistic, boring, exclusive and reduces strength to a very narrow definition. Alicent has been a breath of fresh air and I find her far easier to like, respect and relate to than Rhaenyra.

I will shut up now, even though I’m sure I forgot to even touch on half the points I wanted to make. Never mind. 

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by RhaenysBee

[DMC]

1 hour ago, RhaenysBee said:

It’s not realistic or necessary that everybody is a Cersei or a Rhaenyra and I dearly hope that Alicent won’t turn into either of them. 

I don't think it's fair to group Rhaenyra in with Cersei - book or show - at least not yet.  Albeit I do agree if we're doing a morals assessment it's be just abouts:  Alicent > Rhaenyra >> Cersei.  Also, btw, to include the men, it's be something like Alicent > Rhaenyra, Viserys, Otto >> Cersei, Daemon.

[RhaenysBee]

Just now, DMC said:

I don't think it's fair to group Rhaenyra in with Cersei - book or show - at least not yet.  Albeit I do agree if we're doing a morals assessment it's be just abouts:  Alicent > Rhaenyra >> Cersei.  Also, btw, to include the men, it's be something like Alicent > Rhaenyra, Viserys, Otto >> Cersei, Daemon.

I didn’t. Hence “or” rather than “and”. I agree with the rest. 

[Daeron the Daring]

11 hours ago, Ran said:

I don't think he wants to marry anyone but Rhaenyra at this particular juncture.

I guess we agree on that. I just refered to marrying Rhaenyra before the proposal to the Velaryons is solidified is a much safer bet than tryna seduce her on her engagement party in a huge crowd. And he had plenty of time for that. That's why it doesn't make sense for him to kill Rhea, for the most part. 

11 hours ago, Ran said:

I really don't see the issue about development of the character on the show, you can see how his shifting fortunes and his various attempts to get out or around the marriage being repudiated changes his approach.

How did it change his approach? I'm not sure what are you referring to. He started out as a scumbag, the story had his good side shine for a few second, and then, at the beginning of this episode, reinforced the idea that he's just a scumbag. A worse one than we tought. And if we don't get to know who starts the fire of Harrenhall, or who pays Ser Qarl to kill Laenor, then I have an answer for you. Add to that arranging the death of lil Jaehaerys, his move towards power with marrying Rhaenyra, and the equation isn't 0 (a grey character) but heavily in the negatives.

Now I realise I may sound like I'm being hurt for not seeing the Daemon I envisioned (and continue to envision in the books) on the screen too, but I would be totally fine with anything that makes sense in the light of everything. I don't think Daemon's actions in the past 2 episode fit with each other well enough, and I don't think they will fit well with future critical points regarding him only.

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I would have loved it if we saw more of Rhea and she and Daemon had more of a quippy relationship. It would have been funny if Daemon had been paired with someone who could outwit him. Plus it would have added some levity.

Anything would've added levity. Thou I must admit I liked that they never even had sex, which I think is the case in the books too. It's something they could've gotten from George, if they themselves didn't get the supremacist vibe from Daemon.

[C.T. Phipps]

Like I said, I think Daemon didn't kill his wife out of calculated planning.

Because Daemon doesn't plan.

He's objectively terrible at it.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

On 9/18/2022 at 7:20 PM, Corvinus85 said:

But the elephant in the room is Rhaenyra's dress. So are we getting the whites vs the greens now, or is the show simply not going to utilize those monikers? Would a red dress not have worked?

When I saw the casting choice of Corlys Velayron I slapped myself a fool. I never considered  The Greens and The Blacks divide at the wedding as a family one. Maybe history has white washed it to be about dresses and not skin tone or blood lines. 
 

Im unaware of it being a Westerosi custom but the division described in the book at the wedding, one side Black and the other side Green, may be the brides family and grooms family. 
 

 

[sifth]

10 hours ago, DMC said:

Gotcha.  I was seven months old when it came out in theaters, so I've only seen the version with all three endings.

It's all good, I only learned this little bit of trivia myself a few years ago, when I streamed the film for some friends, during lock down.