[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[Daeron the Daring]

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Like I said, I think Daemon didn't kill his wife out of calculated planning.

Because Daemon doesn't plan.

He's objectively terrible at it.

Well, that's not quite true. He's quick to lose interest, but also talented at, well, everything that matters.

He interestingly succeeds at taking Baelon's dragon egg, came back to King's Landing with clear intentions (the only thing he didn't calculate into his plan is having feelings for Rhaenyra, I guess?), then somehow sneaked into the Vale and away as well without anyone noticing, and you're telling me he doesn't plan ahead? 

And considering the timing of the death of Laenor and Ser Harwin, could it have been executed any better, at any better time? No, not really, there's at least 3 candidates just as or even more likely for the fire of Harrenhal, and Laenor being killed by his lover, with explicitly nothing pointing at Daemon except that his death was benefiting him. If he pulled any of the two off, it was a great success, considering how even suspition of him arranging Laenor's death could've ruined his friendship with Corlys. But that is assuming he was behind either of the two tragedies.

Speaking of tragedies, I wonder if Daemon ever heard the tragedy of Darth Plaugeis, the Wise, because he's going everywhere with a sith costume.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Rheaya Royce. 

Was that Deamon? Looked more like a silent stranger. 
Bah! I never thought she could have been a cripple like Bran. What if she couldn’t move because she was unhorsed and not because of a broken back. 
“ I knew you couldn’t finish. Craven!” 
Finish a mercy killing? Finish what? And who or when did it start? ! I’ll have to watch, reread, and think it some.
 

I was hoping to see more screen time of the the Bronze Bitch.

Imagine expressing the emotion of that scene’s dialogue atop a horse. Not easy. Talented little firecracker.

 

[RhaenysBee]

1 minute ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

I knew you couldn’t finish. Craven!” 
Finish a mercy killing? Finish what? And who or when did it start? ! I’ll have to watch, reread, and think it some.

I thought she meant I knew you didn’t even have it in you to look me in the eye and finish me. But saying “you couldn’t finish” without an object (“you couldn’t finish me”) is a clumsy and contrived way to call back to episode one when Daemon failed to perform in the brothel and have one last double-dig at his masculinity. This is not something Rhea would or could know of course, so it’s just comes off as poor dialogue. Maybe I’m wrong, but this was my first assosiciton when she used that particular word. 

[Mithras]

43 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Like I said, I think Daemon didn't kill his wife out of calculated planning.

Because Daemon doesn't plan.

He's objectively terrible at it.

That is the excuse used by the show writers to exonerate/glorify a fan favourite character that murders his wife. I don't understand why people are not mad with how the writers handled this scene. This shit should cause more controversy than the entirety of GoT.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Mithras

[sifth]

So anyone else think they screwed up the green dress scene? They literally have to explain the importance of the dress as the scene is playing out. I feel like that should have been set up earlier.

[C.T. Phipps]

17 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

I thought she meant I knew you didn’t even have it in you to look me in the eye and finish me. But saying “you couldn’t finish” without an object (“you couldn’t finish me”) is a clumsy and contrived way to call back to episode one when Daemon failed to perform in the brothel and have one last double-dig at his masculinity. This is not something Rhea would or could know of course, so it’s just comes off as poor dialogue. Maybe I’m wrong, but this was my first assosiciton when she used that particular word. 

Given she says they never consummated their relationship, it seems he had ED on their wedding night as well. This may explain why Daemon went all in on insulting her, especially if they had a bedding ceremony. It must have been publicly humiliating and Daemon may have blamed her for his lack of function.

[RhaenysBee]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Given she says they never consummated their relationship, it seems he had ED on their wedding night as well. This may explain why Daemon went all in on insulting her, especially if they had a bedding ceremony. It must have been publicly humiliating and Daemon may have blamed her for his lack of function.

Right, I didn’t think of that! I quite forgot that bedding ceremony was a thing in the ASOIAF world. If they had a bedding ceremony, she could absolutely know indeed. 

[DMC]

Daemon murdered his wife.  And he did so in the hopes of marrying Rhaenyra, at least eventually.  That's what the show depicts.  I don't really get the point in arguing about the specifics.  It may be different than Daemon in the books, but is it really?  I don't know about y'all, but I always thought that was at least a strong possibility as the books came out.  It kinda sucks seeing it, because she seemed like a really interesting character, but it's not like it drastically changes my view of Daemon. 

Like, how many men have we already seen him murder in the show just for fun?  I really don't understand why it's surprising he'd do this when he's pushed to the brink.  Indeed, it's entirely within his character - not only in the show, but, really, in the books too.  Is it much of a plan?  No.  But it's something he's willing to do that most people aren't.  Because he doesn't give a shit about anyone outside of his family.  In that way, yeah, he's pretty much like Jaime.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

19 minutes ago, sifth said:

green dress scene

I dislike it when it when dialogue speaks/explains to the audience. That aside moment felt disruptive. Then again it could be showing us Larry’s gossiping to spread discord. Maybe she was wearing another one of her mother’s dresses and the color was not the intent but the odor

[butterweedstrover]

Some people are saying Alicent is 'jealous' of Rhaenyra because of the latter's independence and liberated status. 

But there are women who are just more conservative and don't desire to sleep around and rule over their relationships. There are women who are more passive and raised with certain values and that doesn't make them oppressed. Alicent chooses to be like this because she values her dignity, she values tradition, and she is not rebellious in nature.  

Rhaenyra meanwhile wants power and independence. And she just messes with people. She raises a poor dornish man to be her kingsguard, seduces him, then treats him like her side piece. People mock Cole for not being as open and modern as Rhaenyra, but he is an uneducated man from a medieval society who has everything he holds dear (his honor) torn from him. If Rhaenyra wanted true freedom she's have abandoned her claim and gone with him, instead she clings to her inheritance while also rejecting the importance of modesty and tradition. 

If Rhaenyra was smart she wouldn't have screwed with someone's life for a momentary release. Just like she wouldn't have mocked the nobles to their face, flirted with her uncle in the middle of her wedding, or ignored the peasants and their opinions. 

There is no such thing as a rightful heir. For people to defend Rhaenyra they have to look at her through a contemporary lens. And yet they look at her claim through a medieval one. 

According to her advocates Rhaenyra is right to skirt tradition in favor of indulging her desires because refraining from that is the influence of the corrupt patriarchy. But also Rhaenyra is the rightful queen because of some draconian conception of the king having divine right to rule over everyone. 

You don't get both. Rhaenyra is the one throwing the realm into chaos, and if she really truly hated the oppressive standards of her society she would have rejected the throne and run off with Criston Cole. Instead she wants to scorn duty while also taking the throne. 

She is not a feminist icon, and she deserves to lose. I support Alicent in all her endeavors. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[Khloey]

I liked the episode a lot. I have 2 small complains about it though.

I disagree with people saying that having Daemon murder his wife is out of character, it's totally in character, but it was poorly executed, very weird. Would have been better if he had her murdered by someone else.

Furthermore, I didn't mind Joffrey going to Criston and try to make an ally out of him regarding each other's secret. But he figured out that Cole was Rhaenyra's lover way too quickly and too easily.

Also, Viserys looks too sick to hang around for another 15 years.

Apart from that, great episode. I really like Cole and Rh's conversation on the boat, Corlys/Rhaenys as well.

Not surprised Corlys tried to minimize Laenor being gay as something that will out grow him. After all, the Greeks considered that loving boys/men was something natural when you were a teen. It's only after you had grown enough to be considered a man that you had to find yourself a wife and do your duty as a citizen. And have an "activ" role and virility.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But there are women who are just more conservative and don't desire to sleep around and rule over their relationships. There are women who are more passive and raised with certain values and that doesn't make them oppressed. Alicent chooses to be like this because she values her dignity, she values tradition, and she is not rebellious in nature.  

Rhaenyra meanwhile wants power and independence. And she just messes with people. She raises a poor dornish man to be her kingsguard, seduces, then treats him like her side piece. People mock Cole for not being as open and modern as Rhaenyra, but he is an uneducated man from a medieval society who has everything he holds dear (his honor) torn from him. If Rhaenyra wanted true freedom she's have abandoned her claim and gone with him, instead she clings to her inheritance while also rejecting the importance of modesty and tradition. 

Wow I didn't know the Republican National Committee was gonna make a statement on the episode.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

I’m not convinced that was Deamon who sneaked Rheanys out, fed her potions, and left her at the brothel. 
Nor do I think it was Deamon who killed Lady Royce. The behavior was that of a silent stranger 

[butterweedstrover]

Just now, DMC said:

Wow I didn't know the Republican National Committee was gonna make a statement on the episode.

I'm sorry, what?

[DMC]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

I'm sorry, what?

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Wow I didn't know the Republican National Committee was gonna make a statement on the episode.

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

51 minutes ago, Mithras said:

That is the excuse used by the show writers to exonerate/glorify a fan favourite character that murders his wife. I don't understand why people are not mad with how the writers handled this scene. This shit should cause more controversy than the entirety of GoT.

Are we supposed to be deeply upset someone that ordered a child who's a member of his family to be murdered in the book murdered his wife in the show?

[butterweedstrover]

@DMC just stop. If you don't agree with me fine but don't throw politics into this. 

[Winterfell is Burning]

30 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Right, I didn’t think of that! I quite forgot that bedding ceremony was a thing in the ASOIAF world. If they had a bedding ceremony, she could absolutely know indeed. 

Not just bedding ceremony. I doubt Daemon never tried to consummate the marriage after it too.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

No one talks about the death of the crab feeder. Look as he exits the cave. What is held in one hand and what Is not held but floats as if bound. What lies next to the corpse when touches the sea.
Riggings, topmost, jib?

[DMC]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

@DMC just stop. If you don't agree with me fine but don't throw politics into this. 

You're the one who inserted politics in it by lauding Alicent's "values" in relation to Rhaenyra's and explicitly stating the former's are "conservative" and thus somehow more dignified in the face of the latter's seduction.  You welcomed the politics, live with it.