[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[Mithras]

If you think I am being overly dramatic, consider this.

I live in a country where the violence against women is a serious problem. We see husbands killing their wives on a daily basis and most of the time they are getting away with it. This one dropped to the news just now: a husband stabbed his wife 44 times and slit her throat in front of their 2 children.

[C.T. Phipps]

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

That is more your inference than what show is actually depicting.

And regardless, Rhaenyra’s life isn’t an alternative to her problems. Just because her duties have her trapped in a loveless marriage doesn’t mean she wishes to be Rhaenyra.

I think the acting implies she had a thing for both Daemon and Ser Dornish.

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Mithras said:

They portray the wife as annoying and condescending towards the husband as if "the bitch had it coming".

Oh c'mon.  That's absolutely not how they portrayed it.  Rhea was awesome in, like, the two minutes she was alive.  I totally wanted her to be a main character in the show.  And no one in their right mind would say she was being "condescending" to that asshole.  She was giving the hooded piece of shit the talking to someone needed to give him.  Unfortunately for her, she didn't realize why he was there in time.

[The Bard of Banefort]

42 minutes ago, DMC said:

You're the one who inserted politics in it by lauding Alicent's "values" in relation to Rhaenyra's and explicitly stating the former's are "conservative" and thus somehow more dignified in the face of the latter's seduction.  You welcomed the politics, live with it.

Conservative is word often used to describe politics, but it’s just that: a descriptor. It’s by no means exclusive to politics. “A conservative estimate,” “using a word liberally,” etc.

[butterweedstrover]

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think the acting implies she had a thing for both Daemon and Ser Dornish.

Really? That would be interesting but I don’t see it right now. Maybe in the future it will be expanded upon. 
 

RN I see Alicent as someone who doesn’t like her ice cream or Rhaenyra’s ice cream. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Conservative is word often used to describe politics, but it’s just that: a descriptor. It’s by no means exclusive to politics. “A conservative estimate,” “using a word liberally,” etc.

I'm well informed on the language, thanks.  I also went to school for a decade to identify when that language is being used for political purposes.

[The Bard of Banefort]

19 minutes ago, Mithras said:

If you think I am being overly dramatic, consider this.

I live in a country where the violence against women is a serious problem. We see husbands killing their wives on a daily basis and most of the time they are getting away with it. This one dropped to the news just now: a husband stabbed his wife 44 times and slit her throat in front of their 2 children.

That’s what I’m saying. It’s too real. Daemon’s not an anti-hero, he’s an all-out villain. And the show’s going to give him some epic death and act like he’s a hero. 

 

While we’re at it, if Daemon and Rhaenyra are apparently soulmates, does this mean we can go back to shipping other “problematic” couples now? Can I go back to shipping Sansa and the Hound in peace?

[RhaenysBee]

35 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

And regardless, Rhaenyra’s life isn’t an alternative to her problems. Just because her duties have her trapped in a loveless marriage doesn’t mean she wishes to be Rhaenyra.

I haven’t seen that idea mentioned or implied, I may have missed it. I would say Alicent understands their world far better than to ever want to be Rhaenyra and I also think she is okay enough with herself that she doesn’t want to be like Rhaenyra. Even if she were as unwise as to wish to be Rhaenyra, she doesn’t have it in her to be like her, because she’s a different personality.

35 minutes ago, DMC said:

Oh, sure, not arguing that at all.

I do think, as mentioned by others, that the timing does make sense.  He had no or at least little reason to do this before.  But now he's desperate -- and now he thinks he's got a shot at Rhaenyra.  That changes things.

Yeah, yeah, I see your point… I’m just not sure why he thinks he’s got a shot at Rhaenyra, who’s being married to Laenor. This may be an attempt at one of those tragic situations of information just passing by a character when they most need it, the ones GRRM likes to write and asoiaf is riddled with, but the show doesn’t exactly make a point of it because it’s too busy getting Joffrey butchered on the dance floor. Maybe a better way to burst that tension bubble would have been Daemon’s realization that he finally went all the way but did so too late and Rhaenyra slipped out of his hands again? 

 

 

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

41 minutes ago, Mithras said:

I don't have anything against Daemon being shown as the monster he is. My gripe is with the handling of this scene in the show. They portray the wife as annoying and condescending towards the husband as if "the bitch had it coming". She even thinks that the husband came to kill her, so that she acts first and she literally ends up having it coming. Even then, they give the agency to the horse instead of the husband. They let the wife be even more annoying on the ground so that the husband who was walking away would feel no guilt about "mercy-killing" the wife. Yes, the whole thing looks like it was not cold blooded murder but Daemon mercy-killed the bitch of a wife who had it coming.

This is non-sense, so much you are the first person to think that which I have seen, both here and in reviews. We see Damon lie about, cheat, abandon and belittle her for years. Nothing in the show indicates she deserved it, and from Daemon's behavior from day one is clear he's a piece of work. In fact, she merely throws the insults he made about her to his face, before saying the real reason he does it is his own impotence, and then he murders her for it.

[Winterfell is Burning]

35 minutes ago, DMC said:

Oh c'mon.  That's absolutely not how they portrayed it.  Rhea was awesome in, like, the two minutes she was alive.  I totally wanted her to be a main character in the show.  And no one in their right mind would say she was being "condescending" to that asshole.  She was giving the hooded piece of shit the talking to someone needed to give him.  Unfortunately for her, she didn't realize why he was there in time.

Exactly, the reaction I saw everywhere was that people wishing we saw more of her and she looked pretty cool.

[EggBlue]

27 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

While we’re at it, if Daemon and Rhaenyra are apparently soulmates, does this mean we can go back to shipping other “problematic” couples now? Can I go back to shipping Sansa and the Hound in peace?

this is supposed to be a free world, you can ship any couple you want:) 

[DMC]

14 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

I’m just not sure why he thinks he’s got a shot at Rhaenyra, who’s being married to Laenor. This may be an attempt at one of those tragic situations of information just passing by a character when they most need it, the ones GRRM likes to write and asoiaf is riddled with, but the show doesn’t exactly make a point of it because it’s too busy getting Joffrey butchered on the dance floor. Maybe a better way to burst that tension bubble would have been Daemon’s realization that he finally went all the way but did so too late and Rhaenyra slipped out of his hands again? 

I don't think Daemon is an idiot, I think he's impulsive and desperate -- and also a murdering piece of shit, of course.  As we see right before Cole goes all Dahmer on Joffrey, he was kinda making some headway with Rhaenyra.  They clearly have a "special" relationship, as is established in the first scene between the two in the pilot.  So, he's not completely out of his mind on that.  What I think is more interesting - and unfortunately I strongly suspect will be glossed over - is why Laena wants anything to do with him.

[Ran]

She was really unpleasant to Ser Gerold, I have to say, who seems to have been nothing but a loyal and loving kinsman. Maybe there's some unknown backstory where he had been an ass to her in the past, but it reminds me of that aphorism that if everyone you meet is an asshole, maybe you're the asshole.

That said, that's no excuse for killing her, especially when you're even more an awful person. He murdered her, no question of it, and she didn't deserve it, no matter how unpleasant she might have been.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Ran

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

No, it's an invention of the show.

I do have a theory on why it was included in the show, but I don't really want to go there.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

but it reminds me of that aphorism that if everyone you meet is an asshole, maybe you're the asshole.

 

[Ran]

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Like I said, I think Daemon didn't kill his wife out of calculated planning.

Because Daemon doesn't plan.

So his arranging a disguise and a note with directions to access a secret passage so that his niece can go debauch herself was just random happenstance? Because it looks like a plan to me.

[Mychel_Redfort]

1 hour ago, RhaenysBee said:

@DMC What I found odd is why he waited so long to kill his wife, and not get rid of this “problem” much sooner. 

Because before, he wasn't ordered by the king to stay in the Vale with his wife. How do you get around that? Get rid of the wife.

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Rhea was awesome in, like, the two minutes she was alive.  I totally wanted her to be a main character in the show.  And no one in their right mind would say she was being "condescending" to that asshole.  She was giving the hooded piece of shit the talking to someone needed to give him. 

 I disliked her within the one sentence she spoke to her cousin, and I wouldn’t watch anything she’s the main character in. And that goes to why we need versatile characters in shows and why every character shouldn’t be full of sass and piss and vinegar. Some enjoy this type of protagonist and some don’t. 

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I don't think Daemon is an idiot, I think he's impulsive and desperate -- and also a murdering piece of shit, of course.  As we see right before Cole goes all Dahmer on Joffrey, he was kinda making some headway with Rhaenyra.  They clearly have a "special" relationship, as is established in the first scene between the two in the pilot.  So, he's not completely out of his mind on that.  What I think is more interesting - and unfortunately I strongly suspect will be glossed over - is why Laena wants anything to do with him.

Didn’t say he was an idiot, but he sure isn’t the wisest or most calculated person in the world. 
well Laena… it would be nice to see something, anything about what kind of person she grew up to be. Her running after Daemon felt rather bizarre, especially after the cringe fest of baby Laena’s proposing to Viserys. 

35 minutes ago, Mychel_Redfort said:

Because before, he wasn't ordered by the king to stay in the Vale with his wife. How do you get around that? Get rid of the wife.

When did Daemon care what Viserys ordered him to do? I don’t think this was the first time he was told to go back to his wife. 

Edited September 20, 2022 by RhaenysBee

[The Bard of Banefort]

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

She was really unpleasant to Ser Gerold, I have to say, who seems to have been nothing but a loyal and loving kinsman. Maybe there's some unknown backstory where he had been an ass to her in the past, but it reminds me of that aphorism that if everyone you meet is an asshole, maybe you're the asshole.

That said, that's no excuse for killing her, especially when you're even more an awful person. He murdered her, no question of it, and she didn't deserve it, no matter how unpleasant she might have been.

I got the impression that that was just kind of their rapport. Just look at all the guys thirsting after Rhea online. Some dudes just like getting bossed around.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Mithras said:

I don't have anything against Daemon being shown as the monster he is. My gripe is with the handling of this scene in the show. They portray the wife as annoying and condescending towards the husband as if "the bitch had it coming". She even thinks that the husband came to kill her, so that she acts first and she literally ends up having it coming. Even then, they give the agency to the horse instead of the husband. They let the wife be even more annoying on the ground so that the husband who was walking away would feel no guilt about "mercy-killing" the wife. Yes, the whole thing looks like it was not cold blooded murder but Daemon mercy-killed the bitch of a wife who had it coming.

Yea, I agree.  I guess that they're trying to keep Daemon semi-sympathetic with the audience to prevent him from becoming a one dimensional villain of the story.  But in trying to straddle the line, they instead just played up to an ugly stereotype of the bitchy woman had it coming.