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[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


Ran
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43 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

I have read other forums and social media and I have literally seen no one outside of this forum that has come to the conclusion that Rhea was portrayed as a “bitch that had it coming”. This take just boggles my mind.

It's how social media works. You have a few people who say the things you expect that you follow, and then FB/Twitter/Instagram/TikTok  feeds you everyone else who shares similar views, and you become convinced that lots of people share these views when in reality it's some small subset of people.

This goes both ways, though. Your not seeing anyone saying the these Bard is seeing could just mean a different social media corporation-curated bubble is being fed to you.

Edited by Ran
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4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

I have read other forums and social media and I have literally seen no one outside of this forum that has come to the conclusion that Rhea was portrayed as a “bitch that had it coming”. This take just boggles my mind.

She's an ugly lesbian in the books and Daemon wasn't even there when shed died. The show clearly tries to make Daemon the bad guy and lame for some reason.

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13 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Daemon wasn't even there when shed died.

Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have arranged it. I don’t know, I didn’t read the book and I don’t care for this Rhea character at all (though let’s be fair, ugly or pretty, nice or insufferably rude, none of that makes her deserve whatever end she met in either version). I just wish I could understand what the show hoped to accomplish with this scene. 

Edited by RhaenysBee
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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

No, it's an invention of the show. Maybe he really needs white hair.

Either that or he discovers some Essos oysters that help with it.

He has a Valyrian look preference. It would make more sense to show watchers if they didn't change the race, haircolor and appearance of Mysaria and Laena.

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1 minute ago, RhaenysBee said:

Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have arranged it.

Eh, if that’s a thing we can just  say in order to accuse that whoever we want to was behind a murder, then I’d go with Lady Rhea’s nephew. He wanted those lands and Runestone for himself and couldn’t wait for her to die, he also knew nobody at the Erie would give the inheritance to Daemon and Lady Jayne proved him right. He had motive and means. And no alibi we know of! :P

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10 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have arranged it. I don’t know, I didn’t read the book and I don’t care for this Rhea character at all (though let’s be fair, she’s allowed to be ugly and/or a lesbian in the books as she’s allowed to be pretty but insufferably rude in the show, none of that makes her deserve whatever end she met in either version). I just wish I could understand what the show hoped to accomplish with this scene. 

He was fighting on the Steptones at that time.
You and other show watchers would better understand why Daemon and his Bronze wife didn't get along if they showed her being gay, like they showed Laenor being gay. We could have had more interaction between them, wasted opportunity.

Also, it would make Daemon more ambiguous if he wasn't there, because he is not truly evil or a plain cheat and murderer like the show tries to portrait.

She is also the ruler of Runestone, not the heir, don't know why they made this change in the show. But it would make Daemon's claim to Runestone and his marriage to her make more sense.

The show just makes stupid changes that make no sense and break internal consistency of Westeros.

Edited by Ser Yorick Ampersand
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9 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have arranged it. I don’t know, I didn’t read the book and I don’t care for this Rhea character at all (though let’s be fair, ugly or pretty, nice or insufferably rude, none of that makes her deserve whatever end she met in either version). I just wish I could understand what the show hoped to accomplish with this scene. 

That Daemon is not a very nice guy and that now he is free to marry again?

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40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, I agree.  I guess that they're trying to keep Daemon semi-sympathetic with the audience to prevent him from becoming a one dimensional villain of the story.  But in trying to straddle the line, they instead just played up to an ugly stereotype of the bitchy woman had it coming.  

Except they didn't. Just look at the reaction online and of reviewers to her- the vast majority liked her enough that wanted to see more.

  

34 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

I have read other forums and social media and I have literally seen no one outside of this forum that has come to the conclusion that Rhea was portrayed as a “bitch that had it coming”. This take just boggles my mind.

That type of reaction says more about the posters than about the show.

 

  

27 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

She's an ugly lesbian in the books

Nope.

 

  

29 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's how social media works. You have a few people who say the things you expect that you follow, and then FB/Twitter/Instagram/TikTok  feeds you everyone else who shaers simialr views, and you become convinced that lots of people share these views when in reality it's some small subset of people.

This goes both ways, though. Your not seeing anyone saying the these Bard is seeing could just mean a different social media corporation-curated bubble is being fed to you.

You could look at professional reviews, though. Didn't see a single reviewer, at least a mainstream one, complain about the show playing to ugly stereotypes about women- even in the reviews that mention the "kill your gays" trope referring to sir Joffrey.

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3 hours ago, DMC said:

I really don't understand why it's surprising he'd do this when he's pushed to the brink.  

Have you listened to Martin and Condal ever talking about Daemon? Like ever? Because it raises the question if these two men have an actual grasp of what’s a bad boy and what is a monster. Clue: they both state at diff times in my readings of interviews ever since Martin published The Rogue Prince that Daemon Targaryen is not a monster. That’s he is a conflicted gray character and a bad boy. These are the words they use even though I can’t look for direct links right now. 
 

So what happens is that some of us always assume that grey and not a monster is not associated with what amounts to cold-blooded-multiple-murders-no-remorse-killer. Which show Daemon seems to be. Book Daemon is from unreliable narratives, with one source extremely biased against him and one that’s Mushroom of the big penis stories… so readers have a large latitude on what to actually believe about him as a character as it is hearsay at best.

anyway not sure if yours was a rhetorical question or not but that’s the explanation why I personally was surprised why they wrote him like this. All black.

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17 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Except they didn't. Just look at the reaction online and of reviewers to her- the vast majority liked her enough that wanted to see more.

I guess the Daemon stans evade you then. In contrast to that, they adore how far he's willing to go for Rhaenyra.

Edited by Daeron the Daring
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I've loved it so far. Some complaints but generally they've done a great job bringing the characters to life. That was no easy task given Fire and Blood really didn't flesh them out in the way the main series did.

The cast have been phenomenal and the young actresses playing Rhaenyra and Alicent have set the bar high for D’Arcy and Cooke. I do wonder if the time skip may be a bit jarring for casual viewers but they've handled that aspect well so far. Paddy Considine has stolen the show - Just a master actor. Believably good natured and weak - You can't help but feel bad for Viserys. They've set up the conflict well and got me invested in the main players, that's all they could really do in the early stages.

I do wish they wouldn't have gone full monster with Daemon and I'm kind of worried about the implications of that. There's also been some bizarre violence with zero consequences which is probably my biggest gripe. I'm not sure why they're forcing that in unless maybe HBO are encouraging it. Feels like you'd want to tone down the violence in these early episodes as much as possible to contrast with what's to come. This should really be the calm before the storm.

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45 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

Eh, if that’s a thing we can just  say in order to accuse that whoever we want to was behind a murder, then I’d go with Lady Rhea’s nephew. He wanted those lands and Runestone for himself and couldn’t wait for her to die, he also knew nobody at the Erie would give the inheritance to Daemon and Lady Jayne proved him right. He had motive and means. And no alibi we know of! :P

We hardly know that Lady Rhea's nephew couldn't wait for her to die. We definitely do know that Daemon needed her to die, pronto. 

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

That’s what I’m saying. It’s too real. Daemon’s not an anti-hero, he’s an all-out villain. And the show’s going to give him some epic death and act like he’s a hero. 

Take that with Martin tho.

Book Daemon outright killed his own grand nephew and beat people to the brink of death and still went out like a rockstar.

 

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

While we’re at it, if Daemon and Rhaenyra are apparently soulmates, does this mean we can go back to shipping other “problematic” couples now? Can I go back to shipping Sansa and the Hound in peace?

Why my girl can't be shipped with a nice fella around her age, she's not related to and doesn't consider her brother?

That's why people are afraid of shippers.

 

 

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

While we’re at it, if Daemon and Rhaenyra are apparently soulmates, does this mean we can go back to shipping other “problematic” couples now? Can I go back to shipping Sansa and the Hound in peace?

My personal preference is Tywin (show Tywin) and Sansa. Or Willas, perhaps. 

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's why people are afraid of shippers.

 

Sums up a lot of Reylos I've seen. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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22 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

We hardly know that Lady Rhea's nephew couldn't wait for her to die. We definitely do know that Daemon needed her to die, pronto. 

Yes, I think you took my comment out of the entire exchange between myself, RhaenysBee, who hasn’t read the book but was responding to a comment made for the book Daemon and Ser Yorkic, who did talk about book Daemon.

However, to answer your post while keeping the parameters of the exchange:

Book wise (which is the original quote that initiated RhaenysBee response and my comment) at that moment Daemon did not needed her to die pronto. He also supposedly fell in love with Laena after he flew back from the Vale and married her after provoking and killing her suitor in a duel. No designs in Rhaenyra quite at that moment bookwise.

Edited by TormundsWoman
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2 hours ago, Ran said:

So his arranging a disguise and a note with directions to access a secret passage so that his niece can go debauch herself was just random happenstance? Because it looks like a plan to me.

I mean that's kind of my point. Daemon has a plan and he ditches it mid-setup.

 

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2 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

:dunno: I disliked her within the one sentence she spoke to her cousin, and I wouldn’t watch anything she’s the main character in.

Well have to say this sounds like you jumping to conclusions more than anything else.

1 hour ago, TormundsWoman said:

So what happens is that some of us always assume that grey and not a monster is not associated with what amounts to cold-blooded-multiple-murders-no-remorse-killer. Which show Daemon seems to be. Book Daemon is from unreliable narratives, with one source extremely biased against him and one that’s Mushroom of the big penis stories… so readers have a large latitude on what to actually believe about him as a character as it is hearsay at best.

anyway not sure if yours was a rhetorical question or not but that’s the explanation why I personally was surprised why they wrote him like this. All black.

The second scene we see of Daemon in the pilot is him rounding up and murdering people.  He's a murdering bastard from the start.  I didn't see many complaints about that, because this is indeed how he's depicted and how the society he functions in works.  Is it "worse" that he murders his wife, who is highborn and a woman?  In some respects, yes.  But it's not particularly surprising based on his character - both in the books and the show.  You can still call him "grey" as a character, but like I said he's "grey" in the same way Jaime is "grey," - pretty damn dark in most objective ways.

So Daemon once again proved he's a murdering bastard because his wife was in his way.  I honestly didn't mean to make this association until writing this post, but using the term murdering bastard reminded me of this:

 

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2 hours ago, El Guapo said:

That Daemon is not a very nice guy and that now he is free to marry again?

We know that daemon is not a very nice guy and an arriving letter or just the cousin’s report at the wedding would have been perfectly enough in my opinion. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or discredit any opinions based on reading the book, I can’t speak for how this plays out there. I just know that I watched a gratuitous and overdone scene that did nothing for me other than check the plot point box of Daemon’s being free to marry. 

And while I understand and accept the problems you guys mention, (be it the returning issue of vilifying a grey character for impact or the problematic downplaying of morally black actions into pardonable bad boy quirk), I personally don’t feel strongly about these complaints. On the one hand because I’m pretty indifferent about daemon and mostly find him tiresome, and on the other because I didn’t read the books. But I get it. 

@DMC 

Quote

Well have to say this sounds like you jumping to conclusions more than anything else.

yes, it does and it probably is. In my defense, I don’t really have an alternative, when you introduce a character with a first line that’s already rude, give me 2 minutes of trading insults, then kill her right off without backstory. I’m going on what I have. (And sure I could read the books, I accept that, but no, sorry, I won’t)

The show could have introduced her being actually amiable to her cousin or have a tender/skillful moment with an animal. I can relate to that and I will see her going off on Daemon on a different light - not because I give a shit about Daemon’s feelings, but because I’ve seen our person be something other than a hardass. Some people can relate to and like that type of character, l just feel they make my skin crawl. 

Edited by RhaenysBee
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