[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

57 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Speaking of the Strongs. . . In the books, it’s mentioned that Lyonel brought his daughters to court too. Assuming they didn’t all die off page, they presumably married noblemen.

I just realised that neither Rhaenyra nor Alicent have any ladies-in-waiting.

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I just realised that neither Rhaenyra nor Alicent have any ladies-in-waiting.

Yeah, that’s a weird oversight. Alicent has nurses to watch her children, but both her and Rhaenyra should have their own “court” at the Red Keep, similar to how Margaery did in the books (and she wasn’t even queen yet).

[Stannis is the man....nis]

Eh I’ve been lurking about too long as well. I’ve enjoyed the show and the episode in question and even some of grievances in question in this thread I don’t necessarily agree with. I actually think Alicent being pissed at Rhaenyra makes perfect sense even if it wasn’t Daemon she was with as the actual issue was her virginity so the fact her best friend lied to her face like that resulting in her father losing his job will obviously piss her off.

[C.T. Phipps]

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-ratings-episode-5-wedding-1235377997/

Each episode is averaging 29 million.

HBO is now probably dancing in the streets.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

He wasn't in the book?

I mean he absolutely was. But lots of people believed they wouldn't let handsome Matt Smith be genuinely evil.

Edited September 20, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, that’s a weird oversight. Alicent has nurses to watch her children, but both her and Rhaenyra should have their own “court” at the Red Keep, similar to how Margaery did in the books (and she wasn’t even queen yet).

Yes, that was an earlier issue I raised - neither of the girls seems to have any other friends nor companions. They kind of rectified that to a point by that Rhaenys said Rhaenyra and Laena and Laenor grew up together ... but that's not the same as there being lady companions around them.

It would have been easily possible to have Alicent hand out with a coterie of Hightower/Reach girls ... she could still be portrayed as somebody who has trouble breaking into the core Targaryen family of Viserys-Daemon-Rhaenyra.

13 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Eh I’ve been lurking about too long as well. I’ve enjoyed the show and the episode in question and even some of grievances in question in this thread I don’t necessarily agree with. I actually think Alicent being pissed at Rhaenyra makes perfect sense even if it wasn’t Daemon she was with as the actual issue was her virginity so the fact her best friend lied to her face like that resulting in her father losing his job will obviously piss her off.

Of course, that makes perfect sense. It is not just the betrayal of trust there, it is the underlying implication, namely, that Rhaenyra is just a lying slut. If she can seduce a knight of the Kingsguard, who knows who she is lying with in addition to him? George uses exactly the same kind of ugly nagging doubt there with Tyrion's silly lie about Cersei fucking Moon Boy. Jaime should know that this is utter nonsense ... but it is quite correct that if you start to view a woman as a slut in this world there is no depth, no limit to her depravity.

Alicent also feels mocked and humiliated by the fact that she believed Rhaenyra, sided with her, and is thus even blamed for Otto's dismissal. Although if we look at the facts as presented there Viserys would have done this, anyway. Alicent believing Rhaenyra isn't the thing that convinced Viserys to side with his daughter ... since Viserys didn't actually believe Rhaenyra's claims , anyway. As the moon tea shows.

But Alicent believes that now, thanks to Otto's insidiously shifting the blame to her ... because he is pissed that he was dismissed and because he really doesn't like it that Alicent stuck with Rhaenyra earlier.

But Otto really uses silly generalizations to spread paranoia and make his own fears/intention appear like the rational thing to do.

They are an incestuous family clan. Even if they don't marry Aegon to Rhaenyra, they can still marry Alicent's daughter to Rhaenyra's son and heir, or they could marry Aegon or Aemond or Daeron to any daughters Rhaenyra may have had. Later on, after Daemon married Rhaenyra, turning Laena's daughters into Rhaenyra's stepdaughters, they could have betrothed Baela and/or Rhaena to Alicent's sons.

If either or more such matches had been made, the chances that Rhaenyra could ever be pressured into killing Aegon and his brothers would be zero.

Regarding Daemon's character:

I guess the Rhea thing is at least good to establish that the Green fear of a 'King Daemon' was not unjustified. If he can kill his own wife (and possibly Laenor as well) then he could easily enough murder or push for the murder of Alicent's sons.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In the books, it’s mentioned that Lyonel brought his daughters to court too. Assuming they didn’t all die off page, they presumably married noblemen. So even if the Strong name is dead, wouldn’t the bloodline have survived? I always wondered this about House Hoare too.

Have no idea about the bloodline, but I'm pretty sure Lyonel's daughters were traded to Rings of Power so Elendil can have a daughter - which I do like.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Where are people getting Rhea being an ugly lesbian from? In F & B GRRM doesn't describe her at all.

@The Bard of Banefort

The Hoares survived through the female line in the form of Qhorin Volmark and (allegedly) Sam Salt. (We're not told whether Red Harren claimed descent from Harren the Black through the male or female line). That means its possible the Strongs endure through the female line, not that that means much.

The issue of ladies-in-waiting annoys me to no end. These are queens we're talking about! They should have an army of women at their beck and call everywhere they go yet all we get are one mention of the Strong sisters and one mention of Elinda Massey.

Truth be told, I don't think Blood & Cheese would work if Alicent and Helaena had a realistic household instead of acting like a modern-day nuclear family the way the Starks do in AGOT.

Beyond that them having ladies-in-waiting would add more color to the conflict by giving us more insight into which houses supported which factions and so on.

Speaking of Alicent, am I the only one who was disappointed she didn't remarry during the Dance, either to secure an ally or to (unwillingly) shore up Trystane's claim to the throne? Not only did widowed queens remarry all the time in RL but it would further add to her ambitious schemer personality. On top of that GRRM goes out of his way to describe her as being a MILF ("remained slender and graceful at almost twice her age" despite giving birth four times) in contrast to Rhaenyra, who's said to worry people won't support her because she's both no longer a virgin and fat, so it would have been nice to see some payoff on that front. Hell, given the fact Alicent is only 41 when the Dance starts she could have easily given her second husband children seeing as in both recent Westerosi history (Alyssa Velaryon, Good Queen Alysanne) and RL plenty of noblewomen had children in their 40s.

@sifth

Mysaria arranged it at Daemon's behest.

Edited September 20, 2022 by The Grey Wolf Strikes Back

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

Speaking of Alicent, am I the only one who was disappointed she didn't remarry during the Dance, either to secure an ally or to (unwillingly) shore up Trystane's claim to the throne.

To be fair, she'd need her son's permission and the Dance doesn't last very long before she's utterly toxic.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

To be fair, she'd need her son's permission and the Dance doesn't last very long before she's utterly toxic.

Would she though? I don't recall Alyssa Velaryon getting Jaehaerys I's blessing just as an example (though to be fair he was a minor). And if I recall they only made that a law in England after Henry V's widow got knocked up by a certain Welshman. Also, would Aegon II really object?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Speaking of the Strongs. . . In the books, it’s mentioned that Lyonel brought his daughters to court too. Assuming they didn’t all die off page, they presumably married noblemen. So even if the Strong name is dead, wouldn’t the bloodline have survived? I always wondered this about House Hoare too.

Eradicated houses usually means only the male line. There are still female line Gardeners out there, too, with the Florents and possibly others, just as there are female line Hoares (the Volmarks, who are descended from a younger sister of Harwyn Hardhand).

One imagines, though, that Harwin and Larys' (half-)sisters either died childless or otherwise disappeared by the time Aegon III named a new Lord of Harrenhal. Larys Strong's nephew or niece should have had a strong claim to the lordship, never mind that it was through the female line ... and Aegon III would have remembered Lord Larys rather fondly, considering he arranged the death of his evil uncle and put him on the throne. Not to mention that he may have known the truth about the parentage of his half-brothers.

Then, perhaps, it turns out that Falena Stokeworth or Lucas Lothston have one of the Strong sisters among their ancestors. After all, it seems that the Whents are also distant relations of the Lothstons.

[sifth]

40 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean he absolutely was. But lots of people believed they wouldn't let handsome Matt Smith be genuinely evil.

Matt Smith is handsome? Don't get me wrong, he seems like a nice guy in interviews, but his face always reminded me of Odo's from DS9, lol

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

40 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

HBO is now probably dancing in the streets.

Are they doing the "Hey!" dance from this episode?

[sifth]

34 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

@sifth

Mysaria arranged it at Daemon's behest.

Yea, but it was still his plan.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Just now, sifth said:

Yea, but it was still his plan.

I...wasn't denying that? Saw your question and thought I'd answer is all.

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

Saw the clips. Makes me less worried about the transition.

[sifth]

19 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf Strikes Back said:

I...wasn't denying that? Saw your question and thought I'd answer is all.

It's all good. It has been a while since I read those books. They're not like ASoIaF, which I can read every year and never get bored. Fire and Blood was one of the most difficult novels for me to finish and it was in large part because I felt like I was reading Wikipedia articles.

Edited September 21, 2022 by sifth

[DMC]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean he absolutely was. But lots of people believed they wouldn't let handsome Matt Smith be genuinely evil.

The greatest show HBO ever produced involved its main character murdering a guy while making him eggs over a horse.  In GoT they had Jaime Lannister strangle his cousin to try to escape the Starks.  I really don't think they're concerned about Matt Smith's marketability.

[Winterfell is Burning]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I just realised that neither Rhaenyra nor Alicent have any ladies-in-waiting.

I imagine they are avoiding people when they don't need to because of COVID restrictions. Surely they had scenes with crowds,. but only when they had to

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

33 minutes ago, sifth said:

Matt Smith is handsome? Don't get me wrong, he seems like a nice guy in interviews, but his face always reminded me of Odo's from DS9, lol

Matt Smith isn't traditionally handsome, but he makes up for it with tons and tons of charisma.