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[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


Ran
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9 minutes ago, frenin said:

About the Dance, I for one believe it's a story that highlights one of Martin's worst flaws, being edgy and nihilistic just for the sake of it.

i mean, the Anarchy was edgy and nihilistic to the point it created a Greek use for a word that echoes out to today.

But yes, I generally can't stand good versus evil shows anymore.

Martin has ruined me for them and I approve.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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13 minutes ago, frenin said:

One of the most interesting topics is how quicly have people gotten over the black Velaryons? It is hardly a discussion i see anymore, although i don't really look that far anyway.

As I said when the show was new, people wanted to say their piece about it and explain why it's a change and why it could have been done some other way, but after that, you know, you either stop watching the show and don't care or you continue to watch the show and enjoy it. I still sigh every time that damned seahorse shows up, but what are you going to do? Other than tweet the occasional #FixTheSeahorse hash tag.

Same thing happened with the first episodes of GoT and people complaining about the lack of purple eyes, but there's no "Wanting purple eyes is racist!" crowd trying to shut people up over their own failure to value worldbuilding as an aspect of the fantasy they enjoy, so it was a much more anodyne issue.

The show has done a few questionable things that I put down to the difficulty of threading the needle of faithfulness to the broad outline while also racing along ~20 years in one season, and for me the worldbuilding changes for the Velaryons to be black are just part and parcel with decisions that are made in relation to the exigencies of producing a show like this, though in this case external factors (i,e. social climate, corporate mandates, legacy of the previous show) are what justify the choice. But as I've said elsewhere, the showrunners are honest and straightforward about it rather than gaslighting people (unlike some commenters I could name), which I think actually did a lot of good. People don't like being lied to about why a production does things.

Edited by Ran
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25 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

i mean, the Anarchy was edgy and nihilistic to the point it created a Greek use for a word that echoes out to today.

But yes, I generally can't stand good versus evil shows anymore.

Martin has ruined me for them and I approve.

A lot of uninteresting things happen in real life. The point of a story is to find out how to shed light on a perspective or aspect that makes us rethink the event on a deeper or more emotional level. 

In the book at least the war came off as overly fascinated in the gory details of who lives and who dies through an endless succession of victories and defeats without much thought into the why or how. 

They win and lose battles based on the intelligence of the players or logistical advantage (kind of like a video game) but we don't explore what makes these details worth telling. I would have rather Fire and Blood skip the war altogether and show us the build up, maybe a chapter about the shepherd, the hour of the wolf, and sum up the fighting as "many lives were lost." 

Instead we go on for chapters about their maneuvers and battle plans which was all just shock and awe that left me (personally) desensitized to the loss of characters I didn't even care about anymore.  

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6 hours ago, frenin said:

One of the most interesting topics is how quicly have people gotten over the black Velaryons? It is hardly a discussion i see anymore, although i don't really look that far anyway.

I think that the grifters of the hate market needs to save one show while bashing the others, HotD is simply the one saved from the burning for grifters to justify themseves when they are obviously called out. 

 

About the Dance, I for one believe it's a story that highlights one of Martin's worst flaws, being edgy and nihilistic just for the sake of it. That and the fact that the Velaryons are terribly underused.  I think it is Martin's worst war by far and it pisses me off the limelight that gets. Robert's rebellion, War of the 5 Kings, the Blackfyre Rebellion, hell even the Young Dragon's betrayal in Dorne.

Tbf, this is also a me problem,  I have always found the post dragons Targaryen Kings far more fascinating than the Dragon kings, no wonder the Dance bores me so much.

 

 

This is one of the things i think that readers believe a no brainer but casual audience woud jump the ship quickly.

Oh, the YouTube bros are absolutely using HOTD as a cudgel to dump on shows like LOTR and She-Hulk. I’ve watched a few of them and it’s amazing how often they start talking about LOTR mid-conversation. They’re clearly not even that into HOTD. The most mind-boggling one I watched was a review of EP3 where one guy claimed Alicent was “too perfect” because she helped Viserys resolve his issues with both Rhaenyra and Daemon. Mind you, this is the same episode where Daemon fought an entire army by himself.

I also prefer the post-dragon Targs, which is why I’m so excited for FB2.

Casual viewers probably would get bored, but I’ve seen some who have said they’re confused by what’s going on too, which I gather is due to all the time skips.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

They win and lose battles based on the intelligence of the players or logistical advantage (kind of like a video game) but we don't explore what makes these details worth telling. I would have rather Fire and Blood skip the war altogether and show us the build up, maybe a chapter about the shepherd, the hour of the wolf, and sum up the fighting as "many lives were lost." 

This is why I enjoyed Stannis the battle sequences in the early seasons of GOT, and absolutely missed Manderly from the series very much. There was a whole group of people who would only discuss this... in the books and for GOT, which is missing from HOTD. For those watching the show only, there is no real indication of how powerful any of the factions are... so far it has only been dragons vs swarms, or actually just Daemon vs swarm. 

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12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m in a weird position where I think this show is both good and overrated. It’s weird that so few people are willing to criticize it. 

I feel like there is a weird discrepancy in the fandom, in that HoTD is more well-received on the ASOIAF subreddit than on this forum.

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43 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I feel like there is a weird discrepancy in the fandom, in that HoTD is more well-received on the ASOIAF subreddit than on this forum.

People on Reddit migrate to the salty reddits of shows they are unhappy about. We on the other hand are the salty purist forum and people move to Reddit or Tumblr or what have you when they get tired of seeing their favorite show critiqued.

I like the show. It's a solid show in general, sometimes higher, sometimes lower. I don't think it could be a lot better given the necessary constraints of this season. I give them a lot of leeway right now. Second season, I think they'll have a clearer narrative line to work with and then I'll be less accepting of narrative shortcuts.

Edited by Ran
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54 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I feel like there is a weird discrepancy in the fandom, in that HoTD is more well-received on the ASOIAF subreddit than on this forum.

The ASOIAF subreddit seems more apathetic to me. Same with the GOT one.

Surprisingly, Daemon killing Rhea sparked quite a lot of talk over on Freefolk, which isn’t exactly renowned for its meaningful conversations. 

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I found this watchable.

Yet it saddens me to think how much better this could be – for the same budget! – with better writers. Why was Rhea Royce – brilliant character, engaging actor, sympathetic, actually good _dialogue_, great House with lots of background and neat visuals and costumes – killed in her very first scene? It’s logistically possible to insert such a character in earlier episodes to establish her, make us care for her, etc. This seems to be screenwriting 101 for scripted episodic TV.

And then the “accident” was super-confusing. I am to infer that Daemon has magical horse-whispering skills that – what? – confidently make a skilled rider fall of her horse in a lethal way? Is this really the best idea they had?

And, ah!, just dream of how Daemon’s entry could have been (or Alicent’s!) with dialogue or fleshed-out characters. Make the Master of Ceremonies hurriedly introduce Daemon, obviously suprised about his appearance, and confused about the titles; give Daemon a brief moment to say “Save it, Harlyn, they know who I am”, reestablishing him as a master schemer who has friends in many places and great social skills, use Damon’s walk down the aisle to give Gerold Royce a bit of outraged dialogue (“Traditions of the Vale demand him to wear a bronze ribbon to honour his wife in mourning for two more moons at least”) to make his suspicions clear and remind us that House Royce is really, really old, give the new Hand some reaction dialogue (quickly asking for an extra chair), make Viserys say something outraged–confused–concliatory, give Alicent or Rhaenyra a moment to shine by letting them collect themselves quicker than the others “You honour us” (maybe with some barbs towards the other woman “You honour your queen”), yet make Daemon kneel first to Rhaenyra with some lascivious quip (“Cousin, I am enraptured. White, I see, the colour of innocence. How… apt. I trust the six days to the wedding night will be bearable, my Prince.” – Glance at the bridegroom, glance over shoulder to the Knight of Kisses, rouge smile. He knows. Clubfoot almost pisses himself laughing. “Ah, a chair. Lord … Lyonel, was it?” (Ironic glance at the Iron Throne) “Ah, this will do.”

And so on. What the poor actors get instead:

DAEMON: Walk up to the dais. Exchange glance with Rhaenyra. Sit.

Sulking faces, pseudo-meaningful glances, the director’s direction obviously reduced to “No, walk more slowly, linger a bit when looking at Rhaenyra, incline your head slightly. Perfect! That’s a wrap”

Edited by Happy Ent
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2 hours ago, slant said:

This is why I enjoyed Stannis the battle sequences in the early seasons of GOT, and absolutely missed Manderly from the series very much. There was a whole group of people who would only discuss this... in the books and for GOT, which is missing from HOTD. For those watching the show only, there is no real indication of how powerful any of the factions are... so far it has only been dragons vs swarms, or actually just Daemon vs swarm. 

Logistical clarity is fine as long as it does not overshadow the narrative. My problem with the Dance chapters in F&B (after the war starts) is how the military domino affect becomes the central focus. 
 

Most of it is like a game of risk where the bigger armies won and people kept dying. It felt nihilistic and empty. 
 

The most interesting part was the king’s landing stuff during the war seeing how the population was coping.

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7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ll have to re-watch the scene, by to me it looked like Daemon pushed the horse when it reared up, which was why it fell on its back. Otherwise wouldn’t he have backed away?

No.

He doesn't touch the horse, nor does he move a muscle backwards because of the horse. It's like he has total control over the animal and knows he won't be hurt in the process.

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11 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Logistical clarity is fine as long as it does not overshadow the narrative. My problem with the Dance chapters in F&B (after the war starts) is how the military domino affect becomes the central focus. 
 

Most of it is like a game of risk where the bigger armies won and people kept dying. It felt nihilistic and empty. 
 

The most interesting part was the king’s landing stuff during the war seeing how the population was coping.

Ooof, the biggest problem here is that the showrunners might not care, they just assume that the audience thinks that the aristocracy have uncounted armies and resources at their disposal, that can be pulled into the show as and when they are required 

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ll have to re-watch the scene, by to me it looked like Daemon pushed the horse when it reared up, which was why it fell on its back. Otherwise wouldn’t he have backed away?

Cannot get more information from a rewatch, it is deliberately ambiguous. The horse is jittery, Rhea is jittery, it may be Daemon startling the horse, it may be Rhea drawing her sword... I don't think Dameon pushed the horse backwards lol, though

Anyway, he seems to have shown up without his dragon, and then walked to Kings Landing... Also he just picks up the stone, they do not show him doing anything with it. 

I guess they tried and failed to make it as ambiguous it is in the books, while implying Daemon did it, that is the best explanation for that scene rn I can come up with. 

 

 

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Btw, the Velaryon siblings are great. Loved both Laena and Laenor, they really do make the most of their scenes.

I still think that this show should have given Rhaenys most screentime but it's too little too late. She's a goner next season. Will we have a flashback explaining how she was robbed twice? I very much hope so.

 

12 minutes ago, slant said:

Ooof, the biggest problem here is that the showrunners might not care, they just assume that the audience thinks that the aristocracy have uncounted armies and resources at their disposal, that can be pulled into the show as and when they are required 

Eh, it's like that in the books too.

How the Riverlords still have an army after  what the Rivelands was put through still remains a mystery to me.

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Magic.

Something something, Targaryen.

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I just re-watched the episode. It was fantastic...apart from the last five minutes and the fact that we don't see Laena riding Vhagar.

It would have gone a whole lot better if Criston attacked Joffrey right in the middle of his conversation with Joffrey. 

Here's another point: how stupid can you be? Joffrey was a complete and total idiot for 1) approaching Criston, 2) doing so in public in a relatively crowded space where they can be easily overheard h, I might add) and 3) being so flippant about it.

It was very disrespectful.

If we had seen Criston proceed to beat Joffrey to death then and there, it would have been a lot more palatable than for the beating to take place a few minutes later in a completely different part of the Great Hall.

 

This show is being rushed. There needs to be another episode after this so that we can see the fallout of everything that happened in this episode. The fact that there is a 10+ time jump right after this is crazy. It's going to make it seem like Criston Cole got away with it and no one cared. Which is bogus because we know that Laenor and Joffrey's family should be foaming at the mouth and Rhaenyra would find herself in a very difficult position. Alicent clearly is going to be involved with Cole's exoneration but we need to see it!

 

Why did they have a private ceremony in such a place? The Red Keep is a large castle. There's the castle sept, the godswood, the Queen's Ballroom, the Tower of the Hand, the yard, one of the many royal solars, etc

Why have in a filthy, rat-infested throne room in that exact moment.

 

And as for Viserys...I loved the dialogue he had with Lyonel Strong about legacy and challenges and how his reign has been so far without challenge. Deeply ironic conversation. But anyone who is passing out that much, that frequently is at death's door. His illness or whatever it is progressing way too fast for him to live another 10-15 years...especially in an era of primitive medical science.

On 9/19/2022 at 8:23 AM, Caligula_K3 said:

It's true that in the first two seasons of Game of Thrones (especially the second), episodes often felt just like a collection of scenes smashed together.

The first two seasons weren't the only seasons that were like that. The last two seasons (or the last three, depending on who you ask) also felt like a collection of random scenes. The main difference between the first two and the last two seasons is that the first two seasons  smashed together with the series finale being the absolute worst.

Apar

On 9/19/2022 at 8:23 AM, Caligula_K3 said:

I don't think House of Dragon's lack of subtlety is one of its virtues (see also: rat symbolism).

What was the rat symbolism?

I didn't get it.

 

 

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Can I say how much I love Laena?

Ugh, she is divine.

 

Now, let's talk about Alicent. Alicent's turn is understandable but she is both overreacting and taking this way too personal. She needs to understand that Otto being fired was not her fault. If Otto was going to go to the king with such information, he should've 1) confirmed that it was true with another source or 2) provided the king with the source of his information. His unwillingness to either made it seem like his sole purpose and motivation is to put his grandson on the Iron Throne.

But Alicent is doing too much. Cole's confession should have calmed her down but Alicent got angrier. Why?! 

Alicent needs to understand that Rhaenyra did not trust her with the truth. And with the fact that Rhaenyra had sex with a Kingsguard knight, Alicent needs to understand that Rhaenyra was not being selfish when she lied.

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15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Can I say how much I love Laena?

Ugh, she is divine.

:cheers:

 

16 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Alicent needs to understand that Rhaenyra did not trust her with the truth. And with the fact that Rhaenyra had sex with a Kingsguard knight, Alicent needs to understand that Rhaenyra was not being selfish when she lied.

Alicent needs a target. She's living a "miserable" life and she has just lost her father to what she believes Rhaenyra's scheming. It's obvious that she's not going to be reasonable. She just wants to take it out one someone.

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