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[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


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23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Alicent needs to understand that Rhaenyra did not trust her with the truth. And with the fact that Rhaenyra had sex with a Kingsguard knight, Alicent needs to understand that Rhaenyra was not being selfish when she lied.

I think in eyes of someone like Alicent sleeping with a kingsgaurd is worse in itself . Alicent is thinking that Rhaenyra is not only a lying bitch but that in her lust , she has also tainted a good natured kingsgaurd's honor, one who is ready to meet his fate for his broken vows. and for all Alicent cares ,if Rhaenyra is capable of sleeping with a kingsgaurd , she has also fucked Daemon and gods know who else. that's how she thinks . on top of that , you have her father feeding her delusions and her own extreme anxiety and stress unchecked , she overreacts. 

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2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I think in eyes of someone like Alicent sleeping with a kingsgaurd is worse in itself . Alicent is thinking that Rhaenyra is not only a lying bitch but that in her lust , she has also tainted a good natured kingsgaurd's honor, one who is ready to meet his fate for his broken vows. and for all Alicent cares ,if Rhaenyra is capable of sleeping with a kingsgaurd , she has also fucked Daemon and gods know who else. that's how she thinks . on top of that , you have her father feeding her delusions and her own extreme anxiety and stress unchecked , she overreacts. 

Plus Alicent believes in doing her duty and the dignity of her position. She believes Rhaenyra is failing to live up to her position, and that Alicent and her father were the ones who had to pay for it. Plus if she can’t trust Rhaenyra to be honest about this, how can she trust her to not betray her and harm Alicent’s children? That’s how I interpreted it, anyway.

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1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

I think in eyes of someone like Alicent sleeping with a kingsgaurd is worse in itself . Alicent is thinking that Rhaenyra is not only a lying bitch but that in her lust , she has also tainted a good natured kingsgaurd's honor, one who is ready to meet his fate for his broken vows. and for all Alicent cares ,if Rhaenyra is capable of sleeping with a kingsgaurd , she has also fucked Daemon and gods know who else. that's how she thinks . on top of that , you have her father feeding her delusions and her own extreme anxiety and stress unchecked , she overreacts. 

I must say that Rhaenyra is a far cry from possessing the honor of Ned Stark and his wife. Her sexual relationship with a Kingsguard knight is honorless. But it is not fair nor accurate to say that Rhaenyra dishonored Criston...he dishonored himself. In fact, he was prepared to dishonor both himself and Rhaenyra even further by running off to Essos together as a penniless exiles.

But Rhaenyra's lie saved Criston Cole's life. Because had she told Alicent the truth while her father was still in office, then she would've said something to either her husband or her father (probably both). At which point, Criston would have been executed or exiled off to the Wall and Otto and Viserys would have found themselves at each other's throats in regards to what should happen to Rhaenyra.

 

The point is that Rhaenyra is no Ned Stark. But the whole matter of the Crown Princess sneaking off and being sexually explorative is being blown out of proportion. It's honorable or virtuous but it's not the end of the world. Otto is just using it as a way of removing Rhaenyra from the succession in favor of Aegon. Rhaenyra should have NEVER given Otto this kind of ammunition but the fact remains that if it wasn't this, it would've been something else.

Alicent's true problem with Rhaenyra has nothing to do with Rhaenyra's lack of honor of her lack of truthfulness...Alicent's true problem with Rhaenyra that Alicent is both jealous and envious of Rhaenyra. If I were TV-Alicent, I would find it hard not to be jealous and/or envious of Rhaenyra...but I still wouldn't take it nearly as personally as she did.

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5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Plus Alicent believes in doing her duty and the dignity of her position. She believes Rhaenyra is failing to live up to her position, and that Alicent and her father were the ones who had to pay for it. Plus if she can’t trust Rhaenyra to be honest about this, how can she trust her to not betray her and harm Alicent’s children? That’s how I interpreted it, anyway.

This is how I think it's meant to be interpreted. Because that's what I (and a bunch of other people) got from it too.

The problem with this is that Alicent needs to recognize that Rhaenyra is a royal by blood and that she and her father are nobles. Meaning that in terms of Westerosi social structure, Alicent and Otto are on a completely different (i.e. lower) level that Rhaenyra, Daemon and Viserys. In fact, Alicent and Otto are further down the ladder than that. Otto and Alicent hail from a House that -- despite its prestige, wealth and power -- is not even a Great House. Otto is not even the Lord of Oldtown nor is he the head of House Hightower.

Like in the books, Alicent and Otto are overextending themselves beyond their station. Which is both pitiful and ironic as they both seem to be die-hard conservatives who believe in the duty and dignity of one's station. Alicent is the queen but she is merely the queen consort.

 

The other problem with this is that Alicent should not have let her father fill her head with paranoia. Okay, so Rhaenyra refused to confirm that she is no longer a virgin and lied about it. Okay, fine...her dishonesty about her sexual purity doesn't mean that she will have her younger siblings murdered.

The fact that Otto thinks that Rhaenyra's succession automatically will cause a war and that Rhaenyra will kill children to secure her own throne says more about him and what he would do than it says about Rhaenyra.

 

On the point of Alicent believing Rhaenyra is failing to live up to her position...hmm, yeah she's pretty much right about that. Rhaenyra messed up and it's not a small mistake either. But does that make her unworthy of the Iron Throne? I don't think that Rhaenyra's teenage hormones, poor judgment and her inability to trust her father or stepmother disqualifies her. I don't think it makes her unworthy.

But whether or not Rhaenyra's mistake makes her unworthy of the Iron Throne is ultimately up to the king. No one else. Neither Alicent nor Otto can make that decision. And that's my problem with them. They are scheming hypocrites.

 

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6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I must say that Rhaenyra is a far cry from possessing the honor of Ned Stark and his wife. Her sexual relationship with a Kingsguard knight is honorless. But it is not fair nor accurate to say that Rhaenyra dishonored Criston...he dishonored himself. In fact, he was prepared to dishonor both himself and Rhaenyra even further by running off to Essos together as a penniless exiles.

But Rhaenyra's lie saved Criston Cole's life. Because had she told Alicent the truth while her father was still in office, then she would've said something to either her husband or her father (probably both). At which point, Criston would have been executed or exiled off to the Wall and Otto and Viserys would have found themselves at each other's throats in regards to what should happen to Rhaenyra.

 

The point is that Rhaenyra is no Ned Stark. But the whole matter of the Crown Princess sneaking off and being sexually explorative is being blown out of proportion. It's honorable or virtuous but it's not the end of the world. Otto is just using it as a way of removing Rhaenyra from the succession in favor of Aegon. Rhaenyra should have NEVER given Otto this kind of ammunition but the fact remains that if it wasn't this, it would've been something else.

Alicent's true problem with Rhaenyra has nothing to do with Rhaenyra's lack of honor of her lack of truthfulness...Alicent's true problem with Rhaenyra that Alicent is both jealous and envious of Rhaenyra. If I were TV-Alicent, I would find it hard not to be jealous and/or envious of Rhaenyra...but I still wouldn't take it nearly as personally as she did.

I agree with you. but that's not Alicent's mindset . you and I have a different definition of honor than Alicent. all in all, Alicent's problem is rooted in three things: religious , duty and paranoia .she is completely disgusted at what Rhaenyra may have done when she is investigating the issue in the previous episode . she is already a very young girl with anxiety problems unchecked and her father has put her in an against Rhaenyra path of thinking . having Cole confessing as such and begging for mercy of death is just the little push she needs to further accept her father's righteousness. and yes , I believe Alicent envies Rhaenyra's freedom and for a lot of people jealousy comes to surface in form of condemn . she prefers fighting Rhaenyra and her lifestyle rather than admitting her own situation is a fucked up mess she doesn't want to be in. hence, she clings on her duty and blames Rhaenyra for not doing it exactly in the same way that she is.

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11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This is how I think it's meant to be interpreted. Because that's what I (and a bunch of other people) got from it too.

The problem with this is that Alicent needs to recognize that Rhaenyra is a royal by blood and that she and her father are nobles. Meaning that in terms of Westerosi social structure, Alicent and Otto are on a completely different (i.e. lower) level that Rhaenyra, Daemon and Viserys. In fact, Alicent and Otto are further down the ladder than that. Otto and Alicent hail from a House that -- despite its prestige, wealth and power -- is not even a Great House. Otto is not even the Lord of Oldtown nor is he the head of House Hightower.

Like in the books, Alicent and Otto are overextending themselves beyond their station. Which is both pitiful and ironic as they both seem to be die-hard conservatives who believe in the duty and dignity of one's station. Alicent is the queen but she is merely the queen consort.

 

The other problem with this is that Alicent should not have let her father fill her head with paranoia. Okay, so Rhaenyra refused to confirm that she is no longer a virgin and lied about it. Okay, fine...her dishonesty about her sexual purity doesn't mean that she will have her younger siblings murdered.

The fact that Otto thinks that Rhaenyra's succession automatically will cause a war and that Rhaenyra will kill children to secure her own throne says more about him and what he would do than it says about Rhaenyra.

 

On the point of Alicent believing Rhaenyra is failing to live up to her position...hmm, yeah she's pretty much right about that. Rhaenyra messed up and it's not a small mistake either. But does that make her unworthy of the Iron Throne? I don't think that Rhaenyra's teenage hormones, poor judgment and her inability to trust her father or stepmother disqualifies her. I don't think it makes her unworthy.

But whether or not Rhaenyra's mistake makes her unworthy of the Iron Throne is ultimately up to the king. No one else. Neither Alicent nor Otto can make that decision. And that's my problem with them. They are scheming hypocrites.

 

She’s acting from a place of fear. She’s all alone with no friends or family or anyone she can trust. The one person she thought she could trust, Rhaenyra, lied to her on her dead mother’s memory. Viserys is distant and brooding and mainly uses her to fulfill his own needs. Daemon is an unpredictable maniac. She can’t trust anyone, so she has to protect herself.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

She’s acting from a place of fear. She’s all alone with no friends or family or anyone she can trust. The one person she thought she could trust, Rhaenyra, lied to her on her dead mother’s memory. Viserys is distant and brooding and mainly uses her to fulfill his own needs. Daemon is an unpredictable maniac. She can’t trust anyone, so she has to protect herself.

While I quote you, several others have expressed this exact thing.  My question is - is Alicent completely incapable of making friends, at all?  Are there no young noble ladies in the realm?  She is the queen, for goodness sakes.  We saw some of her staff, and the nanny.  Does she not speak with them?  Is she not able to make friends in the kitchen staff?  I don't mean 'make friends' like let's have lunch, but friends to increase the gossip streams, find out what everybody is talking about, build some goodwill, and perhaps, just in case, find out how to make or obtain moon tea. 

She seems like such a flat character.  Is this the way Martin wrote her?  Characters like Arya, Cersei, and Brianne were vivid. (I understand coming up she will change.)  But I notice folks tend to take up for her, and as a viewer, I find her like Flat Stanley.  I am not suggesting the character be changed or altered from the book, but based on the show I imagine a full-size cardboard cutout of Alicent with notes on that say -- passive and trapped, will change soon. And, that seems to be what we have been given.  BTW, the actress is doing a fine job.  

Edited by lakin1013
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Rhea Royce 

She rides out.

She encounters her cousin randomly.

She says she’s hunting deer.

She’s riding back from her hunt. No deer. Randomly encounters a hooded  Daemon.

Daemon has no mount with him. He Does not speak. He raises his hand to Rhea. She falls off her ride.

Rhea is unmoving after her fall.

Deamon picks up a stone. 
-END SCENE 

Did we see Deamon kill Rhea? Did we see a body or death?

How was he traveling the vale mount less?

Does the cousin have means, motive, and opportunity? Would he stand to inherit?

Word got to Lady Rheanys fast in Drifmark. We only hear of a death.

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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IMO: Otto is manipulating Alicent by making her fear for her children. ( plus the kids are needed for inbreeding :o ) Otto pushed for Rhaenyra to be named heir, then pushed for Alicent to become queen. Otto anticipated it would be easier to supplant Rhaenyra with Alicent's potential male child than to usurp Daemon as heir. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

She’s acting from a place of fear. She’s all alone with no friends or family or anyone she can trust. The one person she thought she could trust, Rhaenyra, lied to her on her dead mother’s memory. Viserys is distant and brooding and mainly uses her to fulfill his own needs. Daemon is an unpredictable maniac. She can’t trust anyone, so she has to protect herself.

Rhaenyra didn’t lie though. She did not in fact lose her virginity to Daemon which is what Alicent accused of her doing. That is what she swore to on her dead mothers memory.

She just failed to mention that she lost her virginity to Christen Cole instead.B)

 

Edited by El Guapo
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11 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Rhaenyra didn’t lie though. She did not in fact lose her virginity to Daemon which is what Alicent accused of her doing. That is what she swore to on her dead mothers memory.

She just failed to mention that she lost her virginity to Christen Cole instead.B)

Technically, she lied when she said that Daemon never touched her. At least, that would be my verdict if I was a prosecutor. 

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21 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Technically, she lied when she said that Daemon never touched her. At least, that would be my verdict if I was a prosecutor. 

It is a euphemism. A polite was of saying that Daemon didn’t take her virginity. This is why Alicent tells Viserys that she “swore to me that she still a maiden”.

 

(that being said she would have lied her ass off if Alicent asked I she effed anyone that night)

Edited by El Guapo
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There’s another major question: why did Larys want to turn Alicent against Rhaenyra? The easy answer is “he’s an opportunist like Littlefinger,” but LF had very clear reasons for what he did: he was an egomaniac obsessed with obtaining as much power as possible, proving that he was better than everyone else, and recreating the fantasy life he believes was wrongly denied him as a teenager. What does Larys Strong want? In the books, we never find out. Unlike LF, he doesn’t ask for much of anything, and unlike Varys, he’s not part of some family plot. We have very little to go on. This is why I could see him simply being obsessed with Alicent on the show.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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11 hours ago, Ran said:

Same thing happened with the first episodes of GoT and people complaining about the lack of purple eyes, but there's no "Wanting purple eyes is racist!" crowd trying to shut people up over their own failure to value worldbuilding as an aspect of the fantasy they enjoy, so it was a much more anodyne issue.

Wow, great way to insult fellow fans.

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