[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[sifth]

In the book, I could never understand Larys motivation. Did the guy just exist, because he wanted to make people suffer? I know he's basically a Littlefinger/Varys clone, I mean just look at his name, but I was expecting more from George. What bothers me the most, is in the end, he basically just gives up.

[butterweedstrover]

19 minutes ago, sifth said:

In the book, I could never understand Larys motivation. Did the guy just exist, because he wanted to make people suffer? I know he's basically a Littlefinger/Varys clone, I mean just look at his name, but I was expecting more from George. What bothers me the most, is in the end, he basically just gives up.

For the realm. 

[RumHam]

26 minutes ago, sifth said:

In the book, I could never understand Larys motivation. Did the guy just exist, because he wanted to make people suffer? I know he's basically a Littlefinger/Varys clone, I mean just look at his name, but I was expecting more from George. What bothers me the most, is in the end, he basically just gives up.

My best guess is that he was bitter about his foot disqualifying him from becoming a knight or whatever. But he was clever and he used that to advance however he could. Almost a darker version of Tyrion. This is all basically based on his last request to have it lopped off after he's executed. 

He's smart enough to see that war is likely and if he sees and opportunity to gain favor with either side, he'll take it. Once the war starts I imagine all the side switching is just him playing both sides hoping to survive and maybe retain some of his clout. 

I personally don't think he killed his family. I think Viserys did that not expecting Lyonel to be there. If Larys wanted to be Lord Strong he could have had them killed at any point, maybe without burning his castle some more. But Viserys had to reason to want Harwin dead at that particular point in time. If Harwin were to come out and say "those are my sons" Viserys would have been in a really awkward position. 

[Domeric Stark]

As someone who hasn't read the novella, only the original series (and some wiki pages), I enjoyed most of the episode. Only the very ending was a bit confusing - specifically the rushed nuptials. And the ill health of the king, given he must live for years more still.

I don't know why people say Daemon is silent - he had a lot to speak at the wedding, to 3 different people no less. I enjoyed Rhaenyra taunting Daemon to take her then and there, as that continues to set the stage for her romance.
To those complaining that killing Rhea makes him a psychopath, he despised her from the start and when she became an obstacle to something he really wanted - a union with Rhaenyra, she had to go (Again, I didn't read the book, so it doesn't seem out of character at all, though it is his first truly malicious action that we are exposed to). King Joffrey did a lot worse for much less reason, as did many others in GoT. Though the casting for Rhea Royce made her into a very sweet girl, so the viewer understandably sympathizes.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Does it do that every time or was the bow just for decoration?

Probably every time she violently rears back in fear.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think it reared because she went for her bow.

You’d think a bow would be a bad choice to defend yourself with. Draw bow, draw arrow, nock, draw, lose. Maybe that was the only weapon at hand. Something to do with Visearys saying Mayhaps we turn to happier things?

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

1 hour ago, Domeric Stark said:

why people say Daemon is silent - he had a lot to speak at the wedding

I find it curious that the behavior of Deamon, and other characters, appear    to have personality’s that are dependent upon the location and costumes they wear. Viserys in his solar wearing robes. Viserys in black at throne room. Night, day, dawn, dusk etc. with or without dagger. Deamon not speaking to Rhea and wearing his manhood.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s another major question: why did Larys want to turn Alicent against Rhaenyra? The easy answer is “he’s an opportunist like Littlefinger,” but LF had very clear reasons for what he did: he was an egomaniac obsessed with obtaining as much power as possible, proving that he was better than everyone else, and recreating the fantasy life he believes was wrongly denied him as a teenager. What does Larys Strong want? In the books, we never find out. Unlike LF, doesn’t ask for much of anything, and unlike Varys, he’s not part of some family plot. We have very little to go on. This is why I could see him simply being obsessed with Alicent on the show.

Could very well be. It is clear what piqued his original interest - some sense of kinship, of her being an outsider at court, too. I guess, though, since that eventually changes dramatically one imagines that the guy may no longer be a particularly devoted Alicent (feet) worshipper in season 2 or 3. I also imagine that this thing kind of ends when Otto returns and Viserys' health declines even further, and Otto and Alicent effectively rule the Realm. She doesn't need the freak's help then so much.

But then, of course, Larys could beg Alicent to allow him to ship her away, too, along with Aegon and the children ... and she ends up refusing because she wants to confront Rhaenyra personally in KL, daring her into executing her, or something along those lines.

16 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I think in eyes of someone like Alicent sleeping with a kingsgaurd is worse in itself . Alicent is thinking that Rhaenyra is not only a lying bitch but that in her lust , she has also tainted a good natured kingsgaurd's honor, one who is ready to meet his fate for his broken vows. and for all Alicent cares ,if Rhaenyra is capable of sleeping with a kingsgaurd , she has also fucked Daemon and gods know who else. that's how she thinks . on top of that , you have her father feeding her delusions and her own extreme anxiety and stress unchecked , she overreacts. 

In part that, of course, but also it means she could also have lied about Daemon. And, more importantly, she might have actually told Viserys the truth (hence the moon tea) while lying through her teeth to Alicent.

There is sufficient reason there for her to feel betrayed, even if you don't play up the slutty behavior she might also think about. It is a betrayal of trust, in any case.

Although, of course, the standard there is completely off and whacky since sleeping around doesn't mean you cannot be a ruler - that goes for both promiscuous kings and queens.

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The problem with this is that Alicent needs to recognize that Rhaenyra is a royal by blood and that she and her father are nobles. Meaning that in terms of Westerosi social structure, Alicent and Otto are on a completely different (i.e. lower) level that Rhaenyra, Daemon and Viserys. In fact, Alicent and Otto are further down the ladder than that. Otto and Alicent hail from a House that -- despite its prestige, wealth and power -- is not even a Great House. Otto is not even the Lord of Oldtown nor is he the head of House Hightower.

The Hightowers are a great house. They are not ruling one of 'the seven kingdoms', true, but they are effectively another great house which is just technically sworn to Highgarden. The Hightowers got a Dornish union-kind of deal from the Gardener king they submitted to (meaning effectively vast independence and self-governance for mostly formal submission to Highgarden), and Aegon actually even strengthened the power and prestige of the Hightowers when he destroyed the Gardeners (who were the unquestioned royalty of the Reach) and replaced them with the upjumped Tyrells who are still looked down upon by Manfryd Redwyne around 60 AC. They could not be counted on to rein in or control the more powerful houses of the Reach, especially not the Hightowers.

That made the Hightowers the most prestigious house in the Reach and their ties to the Faith - which Aegon tried to befriend - increased their power even more. Ceryse Hightower is the first non-Valyrian, non-cousin bride the Targaryens take after the Conquest - and she is a Hightower and that's no accident. Prior to the breaking of the Faith the Hightowers are the most powerful house in Westeros after the Targaryen-Velaryon-Baratheon clan.

That role diminished during the reign of the Old King, to be sure, but they are still the highest nobility, worthy to marry into House Targaryen ... which is why nobody seriously objects to the Alicent match.

That said - Otto and Alicent clearly are lesser Hightowers and that comes with issues of their own the show portrays really well. The greatest addition of the show so far, in my opinion, is Otto's brother, Lord Hightower, because he kind of embodies what a Lord of Oldtown actually would be at this time - unashamedly determined to secure the Iron Throne for his bloodline, no matter what. And completely secure in who he is. The guy bumbles around with his 'Aegon the Conqueror-babe' nonsense ... but he just doesn't care what people might think of him. He is the Lord of Oldtown, and nobody, not even the Targaryen king, is going to be keen to antagonize him (of course, at that point his brother is also still the Hand and his niece is the queen, so his position is strengthened even more).

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Like in the books, Alicent and Otto are overextending themselves beyond their station. Which is both pitiful and ironic as they both seem to be die-hard conservatives who believe in the duty and dignity of one's station. Alicent is the queen but she is merely the queen consort.

Otto seems to kind of hide his own ambition behind his role as Hand ... and, unfortunately, he didn't instill in his daughter the sense of freedom Rhaenyra and quite a few other Hightower women - the daughters and sisters of the lords - enjoy (Patrice Hightower and Malora 'the Mad' Hightower are both unwed maidens who apparently enjoyed enough power in Oldtown to be suspects in the death of a High Septon and to assist their lord father in sorcery). Also, think about the scandal Lady Sam and Lord Lyonel caused - she only married into House Hightower, true, but it is clear that she lived at a court where she could seize and wield power rarely granted to a woman in this society.

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The fact that Otto thinks that Rhaenyra's succession automatically will cause a war and that Rhaenyra will kill children to secure her own throne says more about him and what he would do than it says about Rhaenyra.

True enough ... Otto is not just the architect of the coup that caused the Dance. He is also the guy who dreamed up the fantasy of a succession war in the first place. It will happen because he continues to paint that picture.

We do get different narratives to such a succession war. Daemon flat-out saying that his brother is the Dragon and that his word is law and truth - which is quite correct. Whatever Viserys wants, if pushed through with sufficient determination and zeal will happen. That's inevitable. The guy is the most powerful king Westeros ever had.

There is also the prospect of further incest matches ... or, quite generally, a family/clan which simply is determined to work together and not kill each other. It worked with Viserys and the Velaryons, it worked with Viserys, Daemon, and Rhaenyra ... it could have worked with Alicent and Rhaenyra and their respective children, too. It was not inevitable that they don't overcome their problems.

This is the dragon age. In later years you could see some ambitious lord abducting, say, Maester Aemon and propping him as an unwilling pretender against Aegon V. But in that era that was impossible unless the pretender in question actually was a dragonrider (that was also the issue with Rogar crowning Aerea - for that to succeed they would at least have needed Rhaena and Dreamfyre on their side) ... but if he was a dragonrider he or she could never be really used as a pawn.

Meaning that if Alicent's children had said 'Rhaenyra is our queen' then nobody would have been able to use them against her in their stead. And folks would have forgotten about such ideas very quickly if Sunfyre and Vhagar had burned the castle of lords who wanted to put Aegon on the throne.

14 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

IMO: Otto is manipulating Alicent by making her fear for her children. ( plus the kids are needed for inbreeding  ) Otto pushed for Rhaenyra to be named heir, then pushed for Alicent to become queen. Otto anticipated it would be easier to supplant Rhaenyra with Alicent's potential male child than to usurp Daemon as heir.

Otto actually seemed to expect Viserys himself would decide to name a son heir in Rhaenyra's stead. That said, in his defence in the show we have to keep in mind that it is actually Otto's brother who pushes Otto to ensure that a Hightower-Targaryen will sit the throne one day. Otto certainly doesn't disagree, but he is still loyal enough to his king's wishes that he doesn't think it is his call to defy him on this matter.

His suggestion of marrying Rhaenyra to Aegon also underlines that - it is a very odd match, but one that could have resolved the entire issue, since Viserys could have then decided to make them joint heirs who were to co-rule like Aegon and his sister-wives ... perhaps with Rhaenyra as the senior monarch, but that could be easily enough accepted there.

14 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Rhea Royce 

She rides out.

She encounters her cousin randomly.

She says she’s hunting deer.

She’s riding back from her hunt. No deer. Randomly encounters a hooded  Daemon.

Daemon has no mount with him. He Does not speak. He raises his hand to Rhea. She falls off her ride.

Rhea is unmoving after her fall.

Deamon picks up a stone. 
-END SCENE 

Did we see Deamon kill Rhea? Did we see a body or death?

How was he traveling the vale mount less?

Does the cousin have means, motive, and opportunity? Would he stand to inherit?

Word got to Lady Rheanys fast in Drifmark. We only hear of a death.

That entire sequence sucked hard.

Caraxes should have been there. He could have spooked the horse. But if we want to see a Daemon killing his wife, then just give us more context and buildup. Establish that Daemon is back in the Vale, show them having a completely horrible breakfast at Runestone. Show how something in Daemon snaps, have him be with people on the hunt, have her have a real accident ... which he then uses as chance to finish her her off.

That would have worked much better than this silly scene which makes no sense from any perspective - Where does he come from? How did he get there? Where is his dragon? How did he find her? Why exactly does he want to kill her?

His whole 'I can have two wives like Aegon the Conqueror' take on things both with Mysaria and Rhaenyra makes it clear that he could have tried to marry Laena and Rhaenyra in this manner.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Lord Varys

[Ran]

5 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Wow, great way to insult fellow fans.

People who throw out the "racist" label on the assumption of bad faith despite evidence to the contrary certainly don't merit any special consideration in the area of politeness.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Ran

[HOTDfresher]

I haven't read any of the books of GM. I am just a casual viewer. I am finding the show very entertaining & it is really interesting to see the political machinations & motivations of all the characters. 

None of the characters are the typical "good guys" or "bad guys". No one is fighting for the betterment of the realm or the small folk. All of lords are just trying to uplift their own standing. 

The so called succession problem is a problem created by Otto Hightower. He saw the opportunity to get his own daughter into the royal family with Queen Aemma's death which would then give him access to the royal bloodline through his grandchildren. He didn't want Daemon to be Viserys successor more because he couldn't control him rather than because Daemon was evil. Daemon would have thrown him out the very next second. But he underestimated Viserys commitment to Rhaenyra. He thought he could easily manipulate Viserys to install his male heir as Rhaenyra being the heir was anyways an unconventional & unpopular decision among the lords. It fundamentally affected the inheritance system of Westeros. But Rhaneyra proved to be a tough cookie. 

I sympathise with Allicent because she was raised by a manipulative father who used her as a pawn. I feel for her being stuck in a loveless marriage as a broodmare to produce heir. But she is no innocent. She actively participated in her father's scheme even if under her father's orders. Her lack of awareness about her own wrongdoings as well as her father's just puts me off big time. It is not as if Otto's dismissal happened in a vacuum. She knows he has been actively plotting against Rhaenyra but still gets hurt if Rhaneyra for once gets an upper hand over his machinations. Now instead of taking a stand against a father who has put her & her children in a dangerous position she is making a stand against Viserys & Rhaneyra when literally they have done nothing against her or her children. 

 

Rhaneyra actually has many qualities that remind me of Arya. She is the one who doesn't want to follow the social construct laid out for women in the society. This is even before she was named as heir. She wanted to be more than a royal womb. Frankly Rhaneyra is a spoilt & entitled princess but she is honestly a good kid. She loves her parents, is good in studies, takes interest in politics which is what her future career is. Yes she is bratty & sassy like a teen girl but she has not actively plotted against Allicent or her kids at all.

 

I have seen many comments about Rhaneyra not understanding Allicent's position but I think she is the only one who has understood it from the start. She knows that Allicent would prefer her own kids being on the throne because frankly as a mother so would Rhaenyra. She cannot be her friend anymore because Allicent has directly made herself into her opposition by becoming the queen. Allicent in my opinion was the one who didn't understand the gravity of her own actions & thought that they would be one big happy family even after knowing her father's intentions right from the start. 

Rhaneyra has not done anything that has shown that she would be a bad ruler. She can do as many kings did before - surround herself with competent people & rule. She is not a cruel person. She is kind of the person who follows live & let live policy. If you are in your lane then she is fine with it but don't expect her to simply take it when you dish it out. Take for example her love life. She likes Daemon but she doesn't go ballistic just because he leaves her hanging ie. rejects her after deliberately wooing her. She is like fine if you don't want me, then you don't want me. She moves on from him & goes to Criston who is one of the few people she trusts & feels comfortable with. But does she mislead him by giving him false promises or making love declarations. No. I don't think she would have forced him if he had resolutely rejected her. He didn't because he wanted her & there was no lack of opportunity for him to say a firm no. He had valid reason also. So please spare me the narrative of Rhaneyra using her position of power against him. The only thing she used was her seductive power. It is Criston who has very high standards for himself & cannot accept that he easily dismissed his vows for sensual pleasure. Hence he views their sexual interaction as something more than the casual sex that it was. Again lack of self awareness. 

[C.T. Phipps]

38 minutes ago, Ran said:

People who throw out the "racist" label on the assumption of bad faith despite evidence to the contrary certainly don't merit any special consideration in the area of politeness.

And if you support the change and think it's not a big deal, you do not deserve to be said that you don't care about worldbuilding.

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

And if you support the change and think it's not a big deal, you do not deserve to be said that you don't care about worldbuilding.

If you don't feel that people should be called racists  on to the basis that they think a change to the worldbuilding is a big deal, I agree with you.

 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Where does he come from? How did he get there? Where is his dragon? How did he find her? Why exactly does he want to kill her?

Exactly!
There is only one motive I can think of for Daemon to murder Rhea. If I recall correctly in a previous episode Daemon said of his Broze Bitch that the sheep are prettier? That would mean she has information coming to her from someone who was present. Maybe she’s cooperating with someone who opposes Daemon’s or the king’s plans.

Her death brings up the rules of inheritance. This may set a precedent for future rulings and votes in the vale. A husband would be past up in line if he was married into the house. So Laenor would not inherit in the case of his wife’s death. Could be a defensive move to protect his niece or one of self interest.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

23 minutes ago, Ran said:

change to the worldbuilding

Was Corlys skin tone ever mentioned in the books? I couldn’t recall if it was. I had just assumed. I love the casting choice of Corlys. The color of the dresses seemed a far-fetched reason to name a war Greens vs. Blacks. I thought it was blood but skin makes it even more despicable and real

…if that’s what ya talking about?  

Edited September 22, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Was Corlys skin tone ever mentioned in the books?

Not directly (although he is depicted in F&B as white), but we are told the Velaryons have a strong strain of the Old Blood of Valyria in their line, which is why most of them come out looking ... well, Valyrian: pale silver-gold hair, purple eyes, pale skin, tend to be quite beautiful in an aristocratic/refined way. Basically, elves, without the pointy ears, immortality, and tree-hugging. 

Further, Valyrian nobility, especially the dragonlords and bloodmages among them, cared a lot about blood purity. They were "obsessed"  with it, per GRRM. This is because they had concluded that their magical abilities were tied to the purity of their blood, and people emulated what the elites did. So in this sense, GRRM has encoded an important piece of the world building -- how magic, or at least soem magic, works -- into why the Valyrians look as they do and why they have the practices that they do (re: incest).

The Velaryons come from a storied lineage, so they were nobility, but they were not dragonlords (whether they had any bloodmages in their line in the past, we don't know.) This habit remains in places like Lys and Volantis, and it remains among the Valyrians in Westeros, which is why the Velaryons have intermarried so much with the Targaryens in the books (it's disputed by some as ambiguous, but one take away you could take from remarks made on the show is that a Velaryon has not married into the Targaryen line since before the Doom, which would be a change to the history as Aegon and his sisters had a Velaryon mother and so did the Old King and Good Queen Alysanne.)

Finally, the show runners acknowledge that Corlys and the Velaryons in the books are like others who claim high Valyrian lineage, such as the Targaryens and Lyseni nobility. They call their depiction on the show a change from the canon of the books. 

3 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

I love the casting choice of Corlys.

Steve Toussaint is doing an excellent job. Very impressive in the action scene -- tallest member of the cast, I think, helps -- but he did some really good work this episode which we enjoyed.

3 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

The color of the dresses seemed a far-fetched reason to name a war Greens vs. Blacks. I thought it was blood but skin makes it even more despicable and real

I don't think the show is going to use the skin color of the Velaryons as a reason to call their faction the Blacks. There's been no sign that anyone really even notices their skin color, as such. They're just Valyrians.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Ran

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

a reason to call their faction the Blacks

Oh yea that would be upsetting to depict. Very uncomfortable. I just like the idea of history twisting  the focus towards the dresses and maybe not another reason. 
I really wanted to see a closer view on the city miniature at High Tide. Do you know what city that was? And was that a Sphinx statue above? 
Final question  What rings are some of the characters wearing? Deamon’s looks like a Blackwood sigil? 
Final, final question. The crab feeder was carried by Daemon to the sea cheaply ?

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

I really wanted to see a closer view on the city miniature at High Tide. Do you know what city that was? And was that a Sphinx statue above? 

If there's a sphinx, it's probably an old Valyrian statue. The Valyrians were big into sphinxes. As to the city, it seemed triple-walled which makes me think Qarth immediately, but that's the book Qarth, not the show Qarth, which was depicted differently. Perhaps a city of Yi Ti or Leng? 

2 minutes ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Final question  What rings are some of the characters wearing? Deamon’s looks like a Blackwood sigil? 

I'm guessing Daemon's wearing a Targaryen sigil, but I admit I haven't seen a good image of the ring.

2 minutes ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Final, final question. The crab feeder was carried by Daemon to the sea cheaply ?

By his own man power, with a lightened load... cheap enough!

[zionius]

My headcanon is the horse reared because Rhea's cousin planned to kill her in this hunt and did some tricks on the bow, like a string connecting to a blade which would cut the horse when it was pulled. Daemon seemed to want to pull the horse when it reared. And he initially didn't want to kill Rhea, a fool 's choice if the horse reared because of him.

The freefolk leak is mostly correct but also has some fake info, like Alicent-Criston love and Laena claiming Vhagar. And they didn't shoot Viserys-Alicent wedding, only the pre-wedding scene when Rhaenyra quarreled with Alicent and then silently helped her into her bridal gown.

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, zionius said:

My headcanon is the horse reared because Rhea's cousin planned to kill her in this hunt and did some tricks on the bow, like a string connecting to a blade which would cut the horse when it was pulled. Daemon seemed to want to pull the horse when it reared. And he initially didn't want to kill Rhea, a fool 's choice if the horse reared because of him.

that would have definitely been better .  but unfortunately it seems the showrunners had decided not to have an explanation for this at all . I mean it would have been a good scene if Daemon , who had arrived in Vale earlier, had joined his wife for the hunt (because why not? hunting's fun) and after she had fell off the horse  , only then he had decided he has the opportunity to finish her off. what they portrayed was just bullshit! if he hadn't planned it before, he would have been there with Caraxes and spoke a dialogue or two ; and if he had planned it , then I certainly don't understand the plan! do Targaryens have psychic link to horses?! 

[Ran]

Just now, EggBlue said:

then I certainly don't understand the plan!

The plan was to grab her and pull her off the horse, probably to snap her neck or perhaps bash her head in. The horse spooked and reared instead, but he still needed to go fetch a rock to finish her off.

The whole silent menacing thing was calculated to keep her intrigued and uncertain enough to stay put until he could grab her.