[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, zionius said:

My headcanon is the horse reared because Rhea's cousin planned to kill her in this hunt and did some tricks on the bow, like a string connecting to a blade which would cut the horse when it was pulled. Daemon seemed to want to pull the horse when it reared. And he initially didn't want to kill Rhea, a fool 's choice if the horse reared because of him.

The freefolk leak is mostly correct but also has some fake info, like Alicent-Criston love and Laena claiming Vhagar. And they didn't shoot Viserys-Alicent wedding, only the pre-wedding scene when Rhaenyra quarreled with Alicent and then silently helped her into her bridal gown.

There was a different leak before that which mentioned Alicent having a crush on CC but putting it aside when she married Viserys, and it’s been accurate so far. I think it was based on the script and script notes judging by the way it described character motivations (i.e. Alicent thinking that Rhaenyra is making a mockery of her station by sleeping with Criston).

Edited September 22, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, zionius said:

The freefolk leak is mostly correct but also has some fake info, like Alicent-Criston love and Laena claiming Vhagar. And they didn't shoot Viserys-Alicent wedding, only the pre-wedding scene when Rhaenyra quarreled with Alicent and then silently helped her into her bridal gown.

Is the Laena-Vhagar thing really fake info and not rather something that was cut? They did establish Laena's interest in Vhagar, and while it is technically possible that this was simply done to establish that she would be her rider later ... the whole stuff about Vhagar not being in the Dragonpit but, apparently, either on or close to Driftmark certainly seems to indicate that a scene where young Laena claims Vhagar was to follow. Episode 2 is the shortest episode we got, and it makes sense that such a scene was supposed to take place at the end with Alicent's pre-marriage dressing which was also cut. A mirror depiction of the chosen queen and the spurned queen ... with the latter getting the largest dragon instead.

[Lord Varys]

Regarding the dragons, I forgot to mention that the last couple of episodes made it kind of look like George's silly dragon logistics.

- Daemon apparently walked to the Vale. Even if he didn't - where the hell is Caraxes? He surely isn't at Runestone, or else the Royces would know about his presence. And if he didn't have his dragon, how the hell could he find Rhea on foot?

(Also if you plan to murder your wife one great thing to disguise it would be dragon accident. You know, say, she fell of the dragon and broke her neck that way. Or have Caraxes eat her corpse and turn it into a missing person case.)

- Why the hell does Rhaenyra not take Syrax with her for her suitor tour? Seriously, she is a Targaryen princess, a dragonrider, and the future queen. Folks should not just know she commands a dragon, she should see her dragon. Her entourage could easily enough go by ship, but she should have flown back from Storm's End on Syrax. Could have been great imagery to underline the difference of 'lesser men' who have to go by ship and the divine Targaryens who can fly. And Criston Cole could have been allowed to ride with her as her sworn shield, since the show earlier established that Syrax would soon be able to carry multiple people. Not to mention that Rhaenyra's first introduction established her as a young woman who likes to ride her dragon for pleasure. If she has to travel she should just jump on the chance to mount her Syrax again.

- Nothing emphasized the silliness of dragonless Viserys better than his ugly journey to Driftmark. He gets seasick, possibly not for the first time, and the journey in general just makes him miserable. On dragonback the journey would have been over much quicker. They should have either given Viserys a good reason not to claim another dragon, or they should have pointed out why the hell he doesn't fly with Rhaenyra on Syrax. A good enough reason could simply be that flying makes Viserys even sicker than sailing. I'm not sure how many people asked themselves why the hell Viserys does not travel by dragon, but my mother did when I watched the episode with her.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Lord Varys

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

The whole silent menacing thing was calculated to keep her intrigued

Ah ok. I was like, what are they showing us here. A silent Daemon, wearing a ridiculously over the top manhood cloak, appears in a pass, apparently walked to the vale, and just happened to encounters his wife wile she was hunting…deer.

     I just have to breathe and let it go. Inhale the calm, and exhale the, the, the, nope I can’t do it!

Suspicious!

I shall withdraw to my mothers basement and endeavor to concoct a most convoluted conspiracy theory that contains a rubber chicken and no less than 3 Klaatu Barada Niktu’s!*.  Royal dog or worm head? 
 

*For our younger audience, Thats an old movie quote. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[zionius]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Is the Laena-Vhagar thing really fake info and not rather something that was cut? They did establish Laena's interest in Vhagar, and while it is technically possible that this was simply done to establish that she would be her rider later ... the whole stuff about Vhagar not being in the Dragonpit but, apparently, either on or close to Driftmark certainly seems to indicate that a scene where young Laena claims Vhagar was to follow. Episode 2 is the shortest episode we got, and it makes sense that such a scene was supposed to take place at the end with Alicent's pre-marriage dressing which was also cut. A mirror depiction of the chosen queen and the spurned queen ... with the latter getting the largest dragon instead.

In ep5 apparently Laena isn't a dragonrider yet, elsewise they'd let 3 dragons flew to KL.

[RhaenysBee]

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also if you plan to murder your wife one great thing to disguise it would be dragon accident. You know, say, she fell of the dragon and broke her neck that way. Or have Caraxes eat her corpse and turn it into a missing person case.

I KNOW RIGHT?!?!?!

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Could have been great imagery to underline the difference of 'lesser men' who have to go by ship and the divine Targaryens who can fly. And Criston Cole could have been allowed to ride with her as her sworn shield, since the show earlier established that Syrax would soon be able to carry multiple people. Not to mention that Rhaenyra's first introduction established her as a young woman who likes to ride her dragon for pleasure. If she has to travel she should just jump on the chance to mount her Syrax again.

 

again, very much agree. Dragons at this point are a random checkbox to throw into every episode for a random minute. They aren’t tradition, they aren’t a status symbol, they aren’t pets, they aren’t a mean of traveling. Doesn’t make any sense and doesn’t enrich the world in any way. 

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, zionius said:

In ep5 apparently Laena isn't a dragonrider yet, elsewise they'd let 3 dragons flew to KL.

That - or they just didn't show her. After all, they also didn't really show that Rhaenys was riding the larger dragon who seems to be Meleys, so who knows, really?

17 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

again, very much agree. Dragons at this point are a random checkbox to throw into every episode for a random minute. They aren’t tradition, they aren’t a status symbol, they aren’t pets, they aren’t a mean of traveling. Doesn’t make any sense and doesn’t enrich the world in any way. 

In the first two episodes they got the dragons right, in episode 3 as well (although the absence of Meleys and Vhagar should have been addressed) but the royal hunt plot and the introction of Aegon clearly misses the whole cradle egg subplot. We should have seen Aegon with a dragon egg in his cradle, or we should have been told that he would either get an egg soon or no egg at all.

If Rhaenyra picked an egg from Baelon's cradle and that later even becomes a plot point ... then why the hell are there no dragon eggs for Alicent's children.

Sure enough, Helaena and Aemond clearly don't get cradle eggs if their later dragons are any indication, but that's George's fault and the writers could find an explanation for this (with George's help).

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

49 minutes ago, zionius said:

In ep5 apparently Laena isn't a dragonrider yet, elsewise they'd let 3 dragons flew to KL.

Apparently, a scene where Laena claims/rides Vhagar was cut from episode 2.

[EggBlue]

I fully agree about the dragon issue . I understand that it may have been a budget thing , but this project was a dragon ambitious one from the start . if they didn't have the budget , they should have gone to Blackfyre rebellion or something. 

there were many occasions they could use dragons to show dragons are more than killing devices . the Craxes-Daemon moment in ep 1 was promising . they could show Rhaenys and Corlys's talk beside Meleys where Rhaenys likely would be when she is anxious and worried . they should have had Rhaenyra fly on Syrax in her tour and they could show that she and Laenor had flew to their beach by showing the dragons in distant or something . knowing Daemon , he probably would have been attracted to Laena seeing she rides Vhaegar rather than she is almost as pretty as her brother . 

but even without all that and with budget limits , they could show how dragons affect everything in this age of dragons . Strong should be the one who brings up Velaryon powers with their dragon number . instead of having Daemon show up in the middle of King's speech , we should see a servant informing Viserys (or Strong)  that people have seen Caraxes , then have Daemon show up . and finally , if they have trouble giving "conquer babe "  a baby Sunfyre , they can just give him a dragon egg to play with... and I'm not getting into Daemon-Vale nonsense !

and on that note, I think we are ready to have our House of the Dragon Rant and Rave thread! 

 

[C.T. Phipps]

11 hours ago, Ran said:

If you don't feel that people should be called racists  on to the basis that they think a change to the worldbuilding is a big deal, I agree with you.

I'm upset at the suggestion the people who support the change lack imagination or somehow lack an appreciation for worldbuilding.

It implies the people who are for the change are less fans of the books and world.

Edited September 22, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Regarding the dragons, I forgot to mention that the last couple of episodes made it kind of look like George's silly dragon logistics.

Not sure why you're calling these complaints "silly dragon logistics" when it's more obviously a simple case of "budget constraints."  There's little to no reason to include Caraxes in the scene with Daemon killing Rhae, and even less reason to include Syrax on Rhaenyra's travels.

[C.T. Phipps]

My biggest issue with the show is basically the speed now. Let's do some simple math here without spoilers: Laenor and Laena are going to be dead by the end of the season and almost completely irrelevant to the show. Both of Laenor's lover  will die in one episode. We also won't get to know either character before they're gone.

Such a waste.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I'm upset at the suggestion the people who support the change lack imagination or somehow lack an appreciation for worldbuilding.

You need to read what I wrote. I was talking about "If you don't like X change, you must be a racist" crowd. Unless you're outing yourself as someone who is in agreement with that sentiment, the remark isn't about you.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

13 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

My biggest issue with the show is basically the speed now. Let's do some simple math here without spoilers: Laenor and Laena are going to be dead by the end of the season and almost completely irrelevant to the show. Both of Laenor's lover  will die in one episode. We also won't get to know either character before they're gone.

Such a waste.

I also think that they went too far with Viserys' poor health. I just can't buy him lasting another decade in the condition he is currently in. Heck, a lot of people thought that he died in this episode.

[The Bard of Banefort]

So there are apparently ads for the HOTD subreddit in NYC: 

Is HBO paying for this? Or Reddit? That seems like a really strange thing to spend money on.

[The Bard of Banefort]

One sentiment I disagree with among fans is that HOTD is supposed to be entirely morally ambiguous and that if you feel there’s no one to root for “this isn’t the show for you.” First off, that’s the same thing people said about GOT, and it obviously wasn’t true. Secondly, moral ambiguity is a spectrum. Every person you know has flaws and makes questionable decisions, but you overlook that because there’s enough that is pleasant, or at least acceptable, about most people. HOTD is way too heavy-handed with its characters flaws, particularly Daemon (who is now cartoonishly evil) and Viserys (who has had all of his redeeming qualities scrubbed away despite the showrunners claiming that he’s “a bad king but a good man.”) Even Rhaenyra’s biggest strength this past episode was that she didn’t whine as much as usual. So far Alicent’s been the unsung hero of the show, and that’s all but certainly about to change.

[DMC]

28 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

First off, that’s the same thing people said about GOT, and it obviously wasn’t true. Secondly, moral ambiguity is a spectrum.

Well, on the first count you're obviously right.  With GoT there were the Starks to obviously root for throughout - albeit Bran missed a season, Jon and the daughters throughout.  And Dany for that matter, who was much more sympathetic than Rhaenyra, her obvious analogue, for much of the series.

On the second count, agreed moral ambiguity is a spectrum, but that's kind of the point isn't it?  HotD is hardly the first series to have virtually the entire ensemble be "morally ambiguous" characters that are difficult to root for.  Sopranos, of course, comes to mind.  Mad Men in a lot of ways as well.  And Breaking Bad, for that matter.  If you want to go comedy, essentially the entire family in Arrested Development were over-privileged misanthropes other than Michael/Bateman (sound familiar?), and he was easily the most boring character as the straight man.  And those are just the shows I really like - I know there are plenty of other examples.  Point is, this isn't anything new for "prestige" shows.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, on the first count you're obviously right.  With GoT there were the Starks to obviously root for throughout - albeit Bran missed a season, Jon and the daughters throughout.  And Dany for that matter, who was much more sympathetic than Rhaenyra, her obvious analogue, for much of the series.

On the second count, agreed moral ambiguity is a spectrum, but that's kind of the point isn't it?  HotD is hardly the first series to have virtually the entire ensemble be "morally ambiguous" characters that are difficult to root for.  Sopranos, of course, comes to mind.  Mad Men in a lot of ways as well.  And Breaking Bad, for that matter.  If you want to go comedy, essentially the entire family in Arrested Development were over-privileged misanthropes other than Michael/Bateman (sound familiar?), and he was easily the most boring character as the straight man.  And those are just the shows I really like - I know there are plenty of other examples.  Point is, this isn't anything new for "prestige" shows.

Perhaps the showrunners are confusing moral ambiguity with villainy then. There can still be people who are fundamentally good that also occasionally make questionable decisions. And even villains can have redeeming qualities. On HOTD, the flaws greatly outnumber the assets. 

[DMC]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Perhaps the showrunners are confusing moral ambiguity with villainy then. There can still be people who are fundamentally good that also occasionally make questionable decisions. And even villains can have redeeming qualities. On HOTD, the flaws greatly outnumber the assets. 

On balance, I really don't think the villainy of the main cast in HotD outweighs that of the conduct seen in certainly Sopranos and Breaking Bad.  Perhaps Mad Men, but that's just cuz the stakes were significantly lower.  They're all still assholes, even Peggy who is the closest thing to a moral center, has her issues. 

Anyway, I think it's just a matter of taste.  I thoroughly enjoyed those shows even though the vast majority of the characters were morally reprehensible.  I understand if people don't enjoy such shows, but, well, that's the show we're given.  And even by that standard, I don't think anything Rhaenyra nor Alicent have done thus far is really "morally reprehensible" at all.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Not sure why you're calling these complaints "silly dragon logistics" when it's more obviously a simple case of "budget constraints."  There's little to no reason to include Caraxes in the scene with Daemon killing Rhae, and even less reason to include Syrax on Rhaenyra's travels.

Didn't call those complaints 'silly dragon logistics'. I said:

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Regarding the dragons, I forgot to mention that the last couple of episodes made it kind of look like George's silly dragon logistics.

By that I mean nonsense like Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Alyssa hiding two dragons large enough to be viewed as (kind of) a match for Balerion (!) while at the same time the dragon Dreamfyre alone cannot possibly be hidden by Rhaena. I also mean the nonsensical dragonrider thing (cradle dragons for Aenys' younger children but not his elder son; Jaehaerys having lots of dragons and only making three of his children dragonriders; no great concern for how royal dragonriders coordinate their travels, etc.

The show starts to do similar nonsense with Daemon popping up in the Vale and people with dragons not bothering with using them as a means of transportation when that is something they would do. I mean, if you think about ... the Velaryons have enough dragons to decide on a whim that Rhaenys and Corlys and Laena and Laenor are going to make a joy ride across Blackwater Bay to celebrate the recent betrothal - say, to scare the backwater folk of Crackclaw Point because decadent royals who cannot afford rat catchers do that kind of thing. How ridiculous would Rhaenyra look if she was asked to join them but couldn't because she left her dragon at home. Or how ridiculous Viserys himself would look then as the King Without a Dragon for No Reason.

The episode correctly made a big thing of it that Viserys humbled himself by searching Corlys out rather than inviting - or summoning - the Velaryons to court. Image-wise, that got much worse though by that Targaryen king traveling there by ship like some, well, lesser man. If he had shown up on dragonback - either on his own dragon or with Rhaenyra on Syrax he could at least have a great entrance at High Tide, flying threatening around the towers, etc.

It is also kind of unintentionally funny when Viserys goes on and on about 'a second age of the dragons' and a new Valyria, etc. when he himself actually isn't a dragonrider. Why is he obsessed with that kind of thing when he doesn't have a dragon himself? And why doesn't anyone ask the old man to show them his dragon? Hell, that could even be fun if one of the youngster did this later on - say, Baela or Rhaena upon their arrival at court, not knowing that King Viserys doesn't actually have a dragon.

'Budget reasons' don't explain anything. This is obviously a costly show where the main characters do use dragons to move around. Thus it is pretty obvious dragons should be included in scenes where folks move around. But nobody forced them to actually bother much with travel scenes. The writers and directors made those choices.

In context, the Mysaria-Daemon-Caraxes scene from episode 1 was completely irrelevant and could have been cut easily enough in favor of a scene of Caraxes being involved in Rhea's death (or one at least referencing that he got to the Vale on dragonback) and/or a scene of Rhaenyra leaving Storm's End on dragonback (rather than including another pointless Caraxes scene where the dragon bumped into Rhaenyra's ship).

During the royal hunt the absence of dragons makes a lot of sense. You wouldn't want to have any of the beasts there, where they could ignite the forest and/or have trouble finding a landing spot.

It would also hurt no one to add 10+ seconds of material where you see a recently hatched Sunfyre in Aegon's cradle being snuggled by the Conqueror babe.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

they could show Rhaenys and Corlys's talk beside Meleys where Rhaenys likely would be when she is anxious and worried.

Thinking about that, we wouldn't even see much of Meleys in such a scene, we could have just them depicting the outside of the Velaryon dragon stable ... or wherever they kept three rather huge dragons on Driftmark. One imagines Corlys did build a pretty big dragon stable thing for Rhaenys' Meleys 'and their get' once he married his princess.

And Vhagar should have been right there, out in the open, considering that she cannot possibly hide.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

they should have had Rhaenyra fly on Syrax in her tour and they could show that she and Laenor had flew to their beach by showing the dragons in distant or something.

That latter strikes me as a pretty good idea. Also, a smart move could have been to end things with (the suggestion of) a dragon pleasure ride. This could have had the benefit that Laenor could have taken Joffrey whilst Rhaenyra invited Criston ... and Joffrey could have figured out the truth about Rhaenyra-Criston by observing them talking/interacting rather than kind of magically like he does in the show.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

knowing Daemon , he probably would have been attracted to Laena seeing she rides Vhaegar rather than she is almost as pretty as her brother .

Laena riding Vhagar should definitely have come up by that point. Unless they actually do tell us later that she kind of claimed her when she married Daemon and before they left for Pentos.

And, yes, if they cannot afford to show Sunfyre as a cradle hatchling for a couple of seconds ... they could have at least given Aegon an egg.