[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Is HBO paying for this? Or Reddit? That seems like a really strange thing to spend money on.

Going to guess it's Reddit, and they have probably had other subreddit ads out there in the past for whatever the new hot thing is.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The show starts to do similar nonsense with Daemon popping up in the Vale and people with dragons not bothering with using them as a means of transportation when that is something they would do.

Just because Caraxes isn't in that scene doesn't mean Daemon didn't use him to get to and from the Vale.  Indeed, it makes perfect sense that he did but didn't want to, ya know, announce his arrival at Runestone by showing up with his dragon.  If he showed up there with Caraxes then everyone would know he was there, so your logic is contraindicated.

As for not showing Rhaenyra on Syrax for her travels, why in the hell waste the money?  They clearly wanted her on the ship to show Daemon returning at the beginning of episode 4, and otherwise there's absolutely no plot reason to have Syrax around.  Your complaints are entirely ignoring the costs involved with using the dragons, pure and simple.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

Going to guess it's Reddit, and they have probably had other subreddit ads out there in the past for whatever the new hot thing is.

You would think they’d do their marketing, y’know, digitally.

[Ran]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

You would think they’d do their marketing, y’know, digitally.

It's a digital billboard.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Just because Caraxes isn't in that scene doesn't mean Daemon didn't use him to get to and from the Vale.  Indeed, it makes perfect sense that he did but didn't want to, ya know, announce his arrival at Runestone by showing up with his dragon.  If he showed up there with Caraxes then everyone would know he was there, so your logic is contraindicated.

Of course not. Just as Daemon not standing there with his horse doesn't mean his horse wasn't behind the second rock on the right, just beyond where the camera could catch him.

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

As for not showing Rhaenyra on Syrax for her travels, why in the hell waste the money?  They clearly wanted her on the ship to show Daemon returning at the beginning of episode 4, and otherwise there's absolutely no plot reason to have Syrax around.  Your complaints are entirely ignoring the costs involved with using the dragons, pure and simple.

I'm not trying to imagine or explain to myself how this might make sense, or what happened between shots - I point out what I would like to have seen and/or what I felt I was missing.

By the way - for budget reasons they could just as well cut Vhagar vs. Arrax or - better still - the Battle Above the Gods Eye. They could easily enough talk about it, show it from a distance, depict only the prelude and the aftermath (kind of like Rome did with lots of its battles), or have some mummers give us a mock replay of things (that could actually be kind of fun if they ridiculed how Daemon threw away his life - perhaps because he couldn't perform with Nettles, either).

We can then easily enough imagine what happened between shots in those case, too, no?

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We can then easily enough imagine what happened between shots in those case, too, no?

The point is neither of your complaints are good ones when taking into account why the producers would not want to spend the money.  So far they've used the dragons in very specific scenes that have already established Rhaenyra/Syrax and Daemon/Caraxes.  We also get the Velaryons' flex of their dragons, which is necessary for the show.  But I'd rather them save the use of/requisite money for the dragons for important plot points - like the ones you mentioned - than for instances when they clearly aren't necessary, i.e. the ones you complained about.  It's about distribution of resources, and thus far I really don't see anything wrong with how they're doing it.

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

thus far I really don't see anything wrong with how they're doing it.

Nor I. I understand that some people need everything spelled out and if they don't see something it must not be the case, but the show can't simulate all of these things. It already costs $200 million for a season, so every time you ask, "Well, why didn't they do <this VFX/production heavy> thing?", the answer is, "Because then it'd have cost $220 million." 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

HOTD is way too heavy-handed with its characters flaws, particularly Daemon (who is now cartoonishly evil)

Oh, come on! Daemon volunteered to take care of Runestone after the tragic passing of his wife, which is just the most heartwarming thing ever. 

[RumHam]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Or have Caraxes eat her corpse and turn it into a missing person case.

I wonder how they handle a missing persons case like that. If a Lord just vanishes does the heir inherit after a certain amount of time? 

Quote

Nothing emphasized the silliness of dragonless Viserys better than his ugly journey to Driftmark. 

I get the impression he's not a fan of dragons. I was initially surprised when he said something like talking to his daughter was sometimes scarier than the black dread. So the scariest thing he can think of for his comparison was his own dragon. I'd guess he claimed Balerion for political reasons or maybe even because he was ill and less likely to devour anyone.

RE: the lack of dragons I understand it's a budget thing I just wish they'd spent the money. It's called House of the Dragon! It's about the dance. Obviously they're gonna need a bigger VFX budget next year. 

Mostly as I said I just wanted a Jurassic Park T-Rex introduction type scene but with Vhagar. 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

 

It would be powerful to reveal a more complete version of events, and the off screen actions we haven’t seen of some of the characters, latter in the show. The dramatic effect of Deamon’s fall into the Gods Eye and a montage of his life from,
Playing with his brother as a child,  The toast to an heir for a day,   
Rhea’s life and death.

To see a full picture of a life. From another perspective. Maybe more abominable, or less, or just different. 
…would be cheating by editing without establishing cinematography pov’s

[EggBlue]

episode 6 released photos:

https://watchersonthewall.com/house-dragon-episode-6-photos/

 

I'm mostly curious about two photos:

1. what is Aegon saying to Cole (hope he's gonna be a fun character before he becomes the drunken jerk that he is)

2. what are the twins so afraid of in the last photo? I sincerely hope Laena won't die in the next episode ... it's wayyyy too soon and she should die in Driftmark ... I so wanna see the scene where Daemon flies to get a new maester (that's one of the few moments where I feel for Daemon)  

 

 

by the way,  does any other Harry Potter fan here gets Luna Lovegood vibes from Helaena? 

Edited September 22, 2022 by EggBlue

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Laena riding Vhagar should definitely have come up by that point. Unless they actually do tell us later that she kind of claimed her when she married Daemon and before they left for Pentos.

I think the reason we never see her riding Vhagar is probably due to the fact she'll be dead before it matters.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

The point is neither of your complaints are good ones when taking into account why the producers would not want to spend the money.  So far they've used the dragons in very specific scenes that have already established Rhaenyra/Syrax and Daemon/Caraxes.  We also get the Velaryons' flex of their dragons, which is necessary for the show.  But I'd rather them save the use of/requisite money for the dragons for important plot points - like the ones you mentioned - than for instances when they clearly aren't necessary, i.e. the ones you complained about.  It's about distribution of resources, and thus far I really don't see anything wrong with how they're doing it.

Of course, I was exaggerating with the idea that the crucial dragon battles be cut.

But it is just an ad hoc explanation that 'budget reasons' explain why the dragon issues I raised weren't addressed. Or is that officially confirmed? Also some of those issues could easily have been resolved by name-dropping dragons or hinting at the presence of dragons without burning lots of money to show them.

And to be sure, a hatchling Sunfyre, referencing Dany's three little dragons from the early GoT seasons, could have worked really well. We didn't see the Conqueror babe all that often so far, and his dragon could have been shown for a fraction of that time.

Also not sure what the point of establishing Syrax was when she clearly is not going to play a crucial role this season (or any season, unless they change the role she plays in the war). The dragons they should play up this season are Vhagar and, strangely enough, Arrax (and one hopes that he does show a couple of times prior to the last episode).

It was nice seeing Caraxes, of course, but he could be limited to his Stepstone exploits for the most time, whilst it may have been more than nice to see Meleys, Seasmoke, and Vhagar last week on Driftmark.

25 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I wonder how they handle a missing persons case like that. If a Lord just vanishes does the heir inherit after a certain amount of time?

I was more joking there. Although, of course, there is no murder if there is no corpse, and dragons do eat human corpses quite regularly, so a serial killer Targaryen dragonrider actually does have an advantage there...

'Falling of the dragon' was an insult Rhaena used on Androw ... and it sounded like something Daemon might actually say about Rhea after he brutally bashed her head in. Also, considering this must be a real danger it would be something one could use for an accidental death ... or a murder you want to sell as an accident.

25 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I get the impression he's not a fan of dragons. I was initially surprised when he said something like talking to his daughter was sometimes scarier than the black dread. So the scariest thing he can think of for his comparison was his own dragon. I'd guess he claimed Balerion for political reasons or maybe even because he was ill and less likely to devour anyone.

There are kind of mixed signals there. Yes, Viserys seems to be no fan of dragons, although it seems more like a thing he takes from his historical studies about Valyria rather than a real like terror like the one Aegon III develops. I interpret his episode 1 talk there as a warning about dragonlord civil wars which were apparently not uncommon in Valyria and, most likely, much deadlier than the Dance. It is not the idea that the Targaryens should lose their dragons - he knows they need them to remain in charge and also to face whatever thing Aegon's dream warned them about.

But then he also seems to want to build a new Valyria in Westeros, he wants to create an even grander dragon age than the one that came before. His wedding speech makes that pretty clear - he marries Rhaenyra to Laenor so the blood of the dragon is strengthened and there can be an ever creater era of peace and plenty than Jaehaerys had build. The writers really play up the possibility that Viserys might die soon - Otto talks about it, he seems to be pretty sick, he collapses upon his return, and collapses at the very end with the casual viewer thinking he is dead now. Quite a few people might expect Rhaenyra and Laenor to rule Westeros next week.

All this legacy saving thing fits very badly with the idea that the guy dislikes dragons and the power that comes with them.

And the show gives us a quite brilliant reason as to why Viserys would claim Balerion of all dragons - because he was the last being to remember Valyria of old, and he clearly is very much obsessed with Valyria. So mounting Balerion was a way for Viserys to connect with Valyria's last living legacy.

In context of the ship voyage it is just the imagery. Viserys supposedly doesn't exist beyond tradition and duty, no? He didn't want to remarry as per his own admission, but he did it anyway, so why didn't he also mount another dragon? There is no shortage of those. They are so concerned with how the Crown looks in the eyes of the world, etc. but nobody so much as mentions that the Conqueror's great-great-grandson would look much better if he were a dragonrider. Especially when he was visiting one of his own subjects and their own island castle ... which, at least in theory, should be full of dragons.

But as a I said: The dragon issue could be easily dealt with if Viserys just said something along the lines of 'Sea sickness? Still much better than riding a dragon. When I dismounted Balerion I retched for half an hour and could only stand up straight two days later.'

Also, when Laena asked Viserys about Balerion the reason why he never chose another dragon could have come up. It was kind of obvious that either Vhagar - the former mount of his late father - or Vermithor - after the Old King's death - would have been the best royal dragons for Viserys to claim, symbolizing both power and continuity.

25 minutes ago, RumHam said:

RE: the lack of dragons I understand it's a budget thing I just wish they'd spent the money. It's called House of the Dragon! It's about the dance. Obviously they're gonna need a bigger VFX budget next year. 

Assuming this was even the reason for this kind of thing.

12 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think the reason we never see her riding Vhagar is probably due to the fact she'll be dead before it matters.

Laena is going to ride Vhagar next episode. And the fact that she will die very soon is the very reason why we should have seen her with Vhagar more often. It would have fleshed out her character more, increasing the impact her early death will have on the general audience, and it would have featured Vhagar more - one of the crucial dragons in the Dance and, especially, this season.

I'm not saying there was no buildup for Vhagar at all. She is talked about quite often, actually. But they could have shown her sooner. And Laena claiming Vhagar could easily have been - or be - a scene that doesn't give too much of Vhagar away.

[DMC]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also some of those issues could easily have been resolved by name-dropping dragons or hinting at the presence of dragons without burning lots of money to show them.

My argument is in the instances you mentioned with Daemon/Caraxes and Rhaenyra/Syrax, there were clear plot reasons why they DIDN'T include the dragons.  Name-dropping them is superfluous. 

And on Rhaenyra/Syrax, I'm not sure what much else you want them to do in this season - depending on how much this season covers of course, but certainly at least so far.  They have the big establishment in the pilot, basically opening scene IIRC, and then in the second ep she even goes above and beyond what is suggested in the books with the Dragonstone confrontation.  It's already well established Rhaenyra can use Syrax as a weapon.  Why waste the money showing her riding back to KL after her visit to Storm's End?  Again, it's the definition of superfluous, and any good PA would tell you the same.

I'm not saying there aren't good reasons for them to include the dragons when they don't.  It's just you have yet to provide any.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Why waste the money showing her riding back to KL after her visit to Storm's End?  Again, it's the definition of superfluous, and any good PA would tell you the same.

No, that's actually a plot and character element in the story. Rhaenyra the dragonrider would take her dragon on such a tour. That's just a given. It warrants an in-universe explanation why she didn't. Even more so since we talk sea journeys here which are always potentially deadly in a medieval setting - especially when you sail through a place called 'Shipbreaker Bay'.

In our world it also warrants explanation why a guy would make a journey on foot or by horse if he actually owns cars or planes and likes to pilot the latter.

Even George understood that when rewriting TSotD for FaB and came up with an explanation why Rhaena didn't take Dreamfyre on her wedding progress with her brother.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, that's actually a plot and character element in the story. Rhaenyra the dragonrider would take her dragon on such a tour.

Says you.  The more important element to that episode is Daemon returning to KL.  And to show that they had Rhaenyra on a ship not only because you kinda needed a main character as a POV, but also to set up the rest of the episode.  You're not thinking as a writer/producer/director of the show, you're thinking on how you think everything should work in your own headcanon.

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

So there are apparently ads for the HOTD subreddit in NYC: 

Is HBO paying for this? Or Reddit? That seems like a really strange thing to spend money on.

I'm moving to New York in a few months and this is making me second guess that decision. 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

episode 6 released photos:

https://watchersonthewall.com/house-dragon-episode-6-photos/

 

I'm mostly curious about two photos:

1. what is Aegon saying to Cole (hope he's gonna be a fun character before he becomes the drunken jerk that he is)

2. what are the twins so afraid of in the last photo? I sincerely hope Laena won't die in the next episode ... it's wayyyy too soon and she should die in Driftmark ... I so wanna see the scene where Daemon flies to get a new maester (that's one of the few moments where I feel for Daemon)  

 

 

by the way,  does any other Harry Potter fan here gets Luna Lovegood vibes from Helaena? 

I don't know, but looking at these pics it's kinda of like whiplash. Laena in episode 2 was a little girl and Daemon was a man. 

Now Daemon in episode 6 has a child with Leana who is that same age while he hasn't aged a day. 

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

Says you.  The more important element to that episode is Daemon returning to KL.  And to show that they had Rhaenyra on a ship not only because you kinda needed a main character as a POV, but also to set up the rest of the episode.  You're not thinking as a writer/producer/director of the show, you're thinking on how you think everything should work in your own headcanon.

Oh, come on, it is not 'headcanon' to think that people who can fly would take a boat which makes you seasick, could possibly drown, and has you spend your nights in relatively small cabins. That's just common sense. Just as it is common sense that a king would like his heir to shine when she is looking for a husband. Stinking of dragon is better than stinking of horse, because only dragonriders stink of dragon (and bald guys who cannot speak the Common Tongue for some reason).

Daemon's return to KL is important - but it was not important to see him fly there. Why not show him on one of Corlys' ships and have Rhaenyra fly above him? Or have Rhaenyra fly to KL and chancing on Daemon and Caraxes in the air, leading to one of the dragon races we hear about in the book?

I mean, be my guest, like the Targaryens walking and sailing and horse-racing all day long. But I want to see them on dragonback when the plot indicates that it would make sense that they go by dragon. I'd also prefer this kind of 'dragons are a means of travel' thing be stressed more than other aspects. Next episode we might very well get a rather pointless 'dragon joyride' of Daemon and Laena ... I'd instead prefer dragon scenes where their inclusion actually emphasizes the role they play in this society, namely as weapons in battle and as proper means of transportation and a symbol of royal power.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, come on, it is not 'headcanon' to think that people who can fly would take a boat which makes you seasick, could possibly drown, and has you spend your nights in relatively small cabins.

It's headcanon to think such an incredibly minor detail outweighs how they wanted to set up the episode - which was Daemon returning, and Rhaenyra being very interested in his return.  Which eventually led to..well, all it led to.  That's what the showrunners care about, not whether the heir to the throne would use a ship instead of her dragon to return from Storm's End - which is frankly debatable anyway considering the inherent risks of flying on a dragon.