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[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


Ran
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2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Plus, it becomes quite suspicious if the entire writing staff of one outlet prefers one show and the entire writing staff of another outlet prefers the other one.

Looking at The Ringer, I don't see the coverage being that negative about TRoP. There's a piece even talking about the fact that folks should enjoy both shows.

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5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Plus, it becomes quite suspicious if the entire writing staff of one outlet prefers one show and the entire writing staff of another outlet prefers the other one.

Precisely. I didn’t look up who owns what, but there’s usually an overlap there as well. 
 

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Looking at The Ringer, I don't see the coverage being that negative about TRoP. There's a piece even talking about the fact that folks should enjoy both shows.

I may have been thinking of Collider, which has been churning out the puff pieces. I don’t think I’m being unfair though—like I said, outlets like the Daily Beast and Guardian definitely prefer Rings of Power.

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5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I may have been thinking of Collider, which has been churning out the puff pieces. I don’t think I’m being unfair though—like I said, outlets like the Daily Beast and Guardian definitely prefer Rings of Power.

Collider is actually pretty positive. Here's this that they posted today.

The Daily Beast has basically one writer (their TV critic) who dislikes it, rated it badly and then mentioned that in his more positive TRoP review, and then a piece about the wigs being bad. After that it's puff pieces about maggots being used in medical interventions and how to "fix" "bad boy Daemon". Not so bad, really. 

I definitely thought The Guardian looked a lot more to TRoP and I admit I can't help but wonder if, you know, Tolkien being British and GRRM being American has something to do with it, even if just a little bit...

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16 hours ago, DMC said:

It's headcanon to think such an incredibly minor detail outweighs how they wanted to set up the episode - which was Daemon returning, and Rhaenyra being very interested in his return.  Which eventually led to..well, all it led to.  That's what the showrunners care about, not whether the heir to the throne would use a ship instead of her dragon to return from Storm's End - which is frankly debatable anyway considering the inherent risks of flying on a dragon.

Aren't you making up your own headcanon there? While we do have Shipbreaker Bay and, for instance, the death of Robert's parents in the books, we don't have anything about 'the inherent risks of flying on a dragon' in both books and show.

The point of this thing is - if you want to make a show about dragonriders then including the dragons into the day-to-day lives of the dragonriders would make sense.

And unless you are one of the showrunners or know why they make certain choices it would be advisable not to speak for them.

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45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aren't you making up your own headcanon there? While we do have Shipbreaker Bay and, for instance, the death of Robert's parents in the books, we don't have anything about 'the inherent risks of flying on a dragon' in both books and show.

Yes.  My "headcanon" is that riding on a fucking dragon is inherently dangerous.

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And unless you are one of the showrunners or know why they make certain choices it would be advisable not to speak for them.

I think it's safe to assume that unnecessary use of dragons costs money, which is all I'm asserting.

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3 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think it's safe to assume that unnecessary use of dragons costs money, which is all I'm asserting.

Yep. Do they need to show the dragon? Most people understand "Daemon in the Vale = Daemon flew his dragon to the Vale". Where's the dragon? Probably chilling in a cave somewhere waiting for his master to return. Why did no one see him? Probably flew the last leg in the dark. How'd he know where Rhea was? He knew she would go hunting regularly and waited for her to do just that and knew what route she'd use to get back. 

Like, none of this is difficult. What's difficult is imagining that all of this needs to be spelled out for viewers who lack the imagination to resolve this themselves. There's a certain point where the most distracted or least imaginative viewers are just going to have to be left behind.

 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Collider is actually pretty positive. Here's this that they posted today.

The Daily Beast has basically one writer (their TV critic) who dislikes it, rated it badly and then mentioned that in his more positive TRoP review, and then a piece about the wigs being bad. After that it's puff pieces about maggots being used in medical interventions and how to "fix" "bad boy Daemon". Not so bad, really. 

I definitely thought The Guardian looked a lot more to TRoP and I admit I can't help but wonder if, you know, Tolkien being British and GRRM being American has something to do with it, even if just a little bit...

Yeah, I remember one British YouTuber saying that it was wrong to racebend Corlys because ASOIAF is based on medieval Europe and “not everyone has the USA’s hang-ups.” There are some fans who either don’t realize that GRRM is American or get really annoyed whenever they’re reminded of it. I guess there’s some psychological stuff going on there.

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27 minutes ago, Ran said:

How'd he know where Rhea was? He knew she would go hunting regularly and waited for her to do just that and knew what route she'd use to get back. 

Yeah, this doesn't get mentioned enough.  Daemon is literally waiting at the end of a path.  How did he know to be there?  Because it was the end of a path.  The show lays it for you.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Yep. Do they need to show the dragon? Most people understand "Daemon in the Vale = Daemon flew his dragon to the Vale". Where's the dragon? Probably chilling in a cave somewhere waiting for his master to return. Why did no one see him? Probably flew the last leg in the dark. How'd he know where Rhea was? He knew she would go hunting regularly and waited for her to do just that and knew what route she'd use to get back. 

Like, none of this is difficult. What's difficult is imagining that all of this needs to be spelled out for viewers who lack the imagination to resolve this themselves. There's a certain point where the most distracted or least imaginative viewers are just going to have to be left behind.

 

huh, you really think so? Wouldn't that run a huge risk of it being spotted and all but proving his guilt? I just figured he traveled by ship to be incognito. 

I feel like you could still notice a dragon at night. Plus even if he was seen flying towards the vale on the earlier legs of the trip, that's pretty incriminating. It just seems much safer to leave the dragon behind when you're trying to sneak into a region and murder someone. 

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, I remember one British YouTuber saying that it was wrong to racebend Corlys because ASOIAF is based on medieval Europe and “not everyone has the USA’s hang-ups.” There are some fans who either don’t realize that GRRM is American or get really annoyed whenever they’re reminded of it. I guess there’s some psychological stuff going on there.

Lol, I remember when GOT was called “culturally British but financially American.”

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10 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I feel like you could still notice a dragon at night.

Under moonlight, maybe, but who's staring up at the sky in the midle of the night?

10 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Plus even if he was seen flying towards the vale on the earlier legs of the trip, that's pretty incriminating.

I'm not sure if he cares about incriminating. He's already suspected. But they don't actually have proof.

10 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It just seems much safer to leave the dragon behind when you're trying to sneak into a region and murder someone. 

Entirely possible, is the thing! There's a lot of ways to connect A to B without getting into conniptions over not knowing Caraxes's exact itinerary, though, you must agree.

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16 hours ago, zionius said:

There is zero hint of Vhagar in ep5. If she had Vhagar, one would expect they talked of it in her scene, and three dragons on screen.

If you compare the full leak with the reddit leak, you can find the latter is a very brief summary of the former, plus a few more tidbit: Mysaria pregnant, Laena claimed Vhagar, green is war banners, Joffrey tells Criston about moon tea... None of them appears in the show. These are deliberately added fake info, and I happen to know who added them.

If you say so, I believe you. I just read the reddit leak briefly and never had a chance to dig deeper into it before it was pulled down.

14 hours ago, HOTDfresher said:

@Lord Varys I think they didn't show Vhagar's claiming by Laena because they want to show Vhagar's claiming by Aemond who will be one of the most important players. That will be one of the most important facet for Aemond's character as well as for the Greens. Laena & Laenor seem to be cool characters but are not that important in the larger story as they will be dead in the next couple of episodes. 

That they are not that important could have been a reason to play them up more. Laena's death being a historical accident had massive political repercussions ... and it could have been a nice twist to play her up as an important character who then suddenly and unexpectedly died.

14 hours ago, HOTDfresher said:

As to why Rhaenyra is not dragon riding to meet her suitors- the answer is obvious that the suitor tour is a diplomatic one. Rhaenyra being a dragon rider is a well known fact. She doesn't need to flaunt it in front of suitors who do not have this advantage. Her being the princess & heir to the throne is already intimidating enough for the suitors.

That feels like a bad explanation, to be honest. A Targaryen princess hiding her dragon for the benefit of lesser men feels not like something they would do. Remember how Dany showed Quentyn her dragons? Folks wanting to marry Rhaenyra should know what they are getting themselves into ... and ridiculous nonsense introductions like 'I'll protect you if you are my lady wife' are less likely to happen if folks address a princess whose dragons is right there or close by and they saw it when the princess arrived.

Not to mention that (to me at least) Rhaenyra Targaryen would only be more attractive and alluring if I saw her with her dragon. It would hammer home that fact that I might be fathering dragonrider children on her if he could just win her hand. The Kingslanders and Crownlanders see the dragons all the time - but the broader Realm does not, and for Rhaenyra it is important that she be seen as the rightful heir. Her dragon would greatly help with that.

We only see her at Storm's End for a short time ... but her suitors do not really treat her as a woman commanding a dragon. Or rather: Not as a woman whose dragon is right there (that the dragon was right there was the deciding factor why she could take charge on Dragonstone back in episode 2).

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Under moonlight, maybe, but who's staring up at the sky in the midle of the night?

I dunno I picture these things making a bit of noise with all the flapping and breathing. It only takes one witness, or a dragon footprint where he landed. 

Quote

Entirely possible, is the thing! There's a lot of ways to connect A to B without getting into conniptions over not knowing Caraxes's exact itinerary, though, you must agree.

Absolutely, viewers should be able to fill in the blanks with reasonable assumptions.

Daemon personally traveling there to murder her is not something I think would happen in the books but I'm fine with it on the show. I think they probably just wanted an interesting opening scene and a character we've never met dying because of a cut strap or killed by hired goons just wouldn't have been as immediately interesting. Daemon being there clarifies the scene's connection to the rest of the story pretty quickly for anyone who forgot who his wife was. 

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regarding Daemon in Vale , I think what makes people (including myself) question the logistics of Daemon's presence in Vale and his plan is not just about Caraxes or the horse or lack of imagination,  no , when a scene doesn't have much to achieve in storytelling , then people start nitpicking at whereabouts of Caraxes and such....  and as us book readers know , there won't be the smallest consequence for Daemon . quite the opposite ! Vale , and house Royce as the second most powerful Arryn bannerman, will be one of the most loyal kingdoms to Rhaenyra .  now, they could try to make Daemon a bit gray by giving him regret this as one of his many mistakes. but that won't mean much anyway , Rhea didn't mean shit to him in any case and he'll have more than that to regret , say, Blood and Cheese. furthermore, if we are to accept that Daemon decided to kill his wife after 20yrs to be with Rhaenyra ,then how the hell did it take so long to get back to her and even then won't take her to Dragonstone and marry her as she dared him? a raven had taken some time to deliver the sad news to Driftmark when Rhaenyra and Viserys arrived , so let's say the whole trip was in one day. but then it takes some time to get ready for the feast .. in fact, at least as much time that Lord of Casterly Rock and lord of Oldtown had arrived ... two weeks? so , it took Daemon something like at least 2/5 weeks to get to Kingslanding after his freedom in marriage is secured?! what was the point of that scene ? really ?

 

regarding Dragon presence in the show, to bring up budget problem is pretty much missing the point . the problem is not that we don't SEE the cool expensive CGI creatures . it's that they don't seem to have much impact on politics or decision making in dragon age court as they should. after all , "dreams didn't make us kings, dragons did"! dragons place this family closer to gods than men , dragons made doctrine of faith possible to allow them all the incest and it's only losing dragons that marks the beginning of the end for House Targaryen ... right? we don't need to SEE Meleys and Vhaegar if there's no budget , all we need is Strong's concern that house Velaryon is more powerful than house Targaryan with just Syrax . we need an egg in baby Aegon hands to see how Targaryens give their kids dragons instead of toys and pets (and all was needed was a prop) .we need mentions here and there that Targaryens tend to go to their dragons and fly when something troubles them just as a reminder that there's connection between dragon riders and their dragons so that when Joffrey Velaryon decides to save Tyraxec , it makes more sense . that Aegon II's grief over Sunfyre seem as more than loss of his power and Dreamfyre's suicide parallels Haelena's . 

 

 

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I can't help but wonder if the decision to have Rhaenyra and Alicent to be the same age and childhood friends was inspired by Conn Iggulden's Emperor book series. There, he does the exact same thing with Julius Caesar and Brutus, whereas in reality there was about 15 years between them. Probably not, but it's still a striking coincidence

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3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Lol, I remember when GOT was called “culturally British but financially American.”

Haha what is that even a reference to, the budget?

I once saw someone on Quora say that Americans “look European but act Asian.” It’s stuck with me ever since ^_^

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3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I can't help but wonder if the decision to have Rhaenyra and Alicent to be the same age and childhood friends was inspired by Conn Iggulden's Emperor book series. There, he does the exact same thing with Julius Caesar and Brutus, whereas in reality there was about 15 years between them. Probably not, but it's still a striking coincidence

Hell, in real life, Julius was asked if Brutus was his bastard son and it was speculated on by his contemporaries due to how he doted over the man.

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Ok, I didn't like the first episode.  Very much at all.  But I'm in on the show now.  

I still do think that Viserys looks like a thinner Homer Simpson with a platinum wig and fantasy leprosy, but no issues with Paddy's actual acting.  And love his model train hobby.

Daemon has grown on me in that he now does seem menacing when at first he seemed underwhelming.  (Putting aside the idiotic scene that ended the war in the Step Stones.)

I'm fine that we're done with young Rhaenyra though.   Something about her jaw or mouth just bothers me.  No issues with young Allicent though, she slayed in that green dress.

Just started rereading the front half of Fire and Blood today.  Not sure what I think about Cristan Cole yet as far as the actor.  I didn't think the chemistry in the hunt scene was anywhere near electric, and he might be someone chosen more for attractiveness than acting chops, kind of like Laenor so far.  But IIRC he should have more pivotal moments ahead to shine.

Looking forward to the time jump and let's see what's coming next on Sunday.  Unless Miami wins at home in which case I'll end celebrating too long to watch the episode when it airs.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you say so, I believe you. I just read the reddit leak briefly and never had a chance to dig deeper into it before it was pulled down.

That they are not that important could have been a reason to play them up more. Laena's death being a historical accident had massive political repercussions ... and it could have been a nice twist to play her up as an important character who then suddenly and unexpectedly died.

This is a general problem of book adaptations. Writers will often trim down the roles of characters important at early stages when they know that they have no role to play in later stages. Happens all the damn time to the disappointment of book fans. Most importantly the creators seemed to have decided to end the season with the start of the dance of dragons & hence are rushing through the events, only showcasing events that they deem important enough. So it is indeed a valid criticism.

That feels like a bad explanation, to be honest. A Targaryen princess hiding her dragon for the benefit of lesser men feels not like something they would do. Remember how Dany showed Quentyn her dragons? Folks wanting to marry Rhaenyra should know what they are getting themselves into ... and ridiculous nonsense introductions like 'I'll protect you if you are my lady wife' are less likely to happen if folks address a princess whose dragons is right there or close by and they saw it when the princess arrived.

Not to mention that (to me at least) Rhaenyra Targaryen would only be more attractive and alluring if I saw her with her dragon. It would hammer home that fact that I might be fathering dragonrider children on her if he could just win her hand. The Kingslanders and Crownlanders see the dragons all the time - but the broader Realm does not, and for Rhaenyra it is important that she be seen as the rightful heir. Her dragon would greatly help with that.

We only see her at Storm's End for a short time ... but her suitors do not really treat her as a woman commanding a dragon. Or rather: Not as a woman whose dragon is right there (that the dragon was right there was the deciding factor why she could take charge on Dragonstone back in episode 2).

The circumstances of Dany & Rhaenyra are very different. Rhaneyra is a princess in the golden era of Targaryens while Dany was one of the last survivors of her house with no dragons in sight for more than a century. Targaryens are at height of their power with people already aware that they are a force to be reckoned with their dragons. They don't need to flaunt it unless required. Dany's dragons were her claim to fame honestly. She had no power of her own until her dragons & still people tried to harm her when the dragons were young. She could not just leave her dragons anywhere. She used them to impress & intimidate potential threats. Rhaneyra while not really into marriage does not see her suitors as threat. In epi 2 Rhaenyra used her dragon not to intimidate Daemon but to intimidate Otto who was deliberately trying to suppress her & her position in front of everyone.

I understand that everyone including me would like to see more dragons on screen.  But the story is more about the characters & dragons as an extension of them. They have already shown that Daemon & Rhaneyra ride their dragons as joy ride as well as transportation in epis 1 & 2. They don't need to show it again. They might be doing it off screen for sure. I mean in a normal show where a wealthy character has a chopper or private jet, they don't show them traveling by them in each epi. Anyways I think we will get more than enough of dragons throughout the show. 

 

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