Jump to content

[Spoilers] Episode 105 Discussion


Ran
 Share

Recommended Posts

45 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well I can only speak for myself. It doesn't make me upset that HotD is successful, but given what I see of it I don't see how HBO can keep this franchise at or even near the level of GOT. That was popular due to its specific story and characters. Once you remove those from the equation the GOT "style" or brand just isn't there anymore (outside of some soundtracks). 

If HBO proves me wrong, cool. I still won't be upset. 

I mean House of the Dragon IS as popular as Game of Thrones (and frankly, there's a good argument it IS just Game of Thrones).

And the reason is George R.R. Martin's writing.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Well, it also has Valyrian steel.  Pretty sure Filoni Star Wars ripped Martin off with the introduction of beskar. 

LOL, no, it didn't. Beskar or Mandalorian iron exists in the Star Wars universe since before there was a GoT - possibly even since before more there was a significant ASoIaF fanbase. It may be that it was first introduced in The Tales of the Jedi comics in the 1990s, but it was definitely a thing in the early 2000s.

Valyrian steel is George's take on 'magical special weapons'.

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think GRRM decided to give some of those characteristics to Alicent somewhere down the line.

Alicent is even less of a character in the books than Rhaenyra. We have no information about her relationship to her father, children, Viserys, Rhaenyra, etc. And that she is, well, 'evil' or greedy or whatever is something that people project on her. At best you can conclude she never loved Viserys from the description of her last days ... but even that wouldn't make her a bad person if we, for instance, go with the show take on her where she clearly doesn't seem to have the hots for Viserys and was pushed into that marriage by her father.

The bottom line is - in the book we only understand that there is a conflict there, but we don't really much about the motivational and emotional framework behind it. It is really glaring with Rhaenyra/Daemon having no relationship with their children that we are aware of ... but we also don't have a clue about Alicent's relationship to her children, Daemon's relationship to Viserys, etc.

And that's not because it is a history book since some of the Jaehaerys material and the Regency material are more detailed. Unwin Peake and Tyland Lannister and Alyn Velaryon are real characters in that material. We understand what drives them much better than we understand Rhaenyra or Alicent

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

If my responses seem brief that's because I intend them to be so.  If YOU want to engage about how ASOIAF is somehow less worthy than the other major IPs with premises that are far more simple than Martin's world, let me know.  Otherwise this is just you childishly whining.  Over and over again.

You can start that conversation whenever, or not. That is not for me to do given as I have already stated my opinion on the matter. If you want to provide a counter argument feel free.
 

But since you are intent on focusing on my tone, my intention, and taking pride in acting like a dick and then denying it I question if you are serious person at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean House of the Dragon IS as popular as Game of Thrones (and frankly, there's a good argument it IS just Game of Thrones).

And the reason is George R.R. Martin's writing.

 

Well they’re going to run out of Martin’s writing fast if that is what they’re counting on to build their cinematic universe. 
 

Personally I don’t think the Dance is a great story, but regardless Martin was the one comparing himself to Stan Lee and I just don’t see that happening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Ran said:

I've a theory that the Rant and Rave posters who kept those threads alive for literal years after GoT ended in ignominy are basically suffering from a kind of self-reinforced PTSD that colors their response to this show. It's why I've decided to not have the threads at present because I believe they were ultimately unhealthy for the participants.

If they want to go and found their own forums to talk critically about GoT, HotD, and other related proposed shows without being forced to discuss or defend those critiques, they are absolutely welcome to do so. hmm, Tapatalk, and a few others still offer free forum hosting.

I'm not sure anyone needs your help with real or imagined PTST symptoms in connection to a TV show (I honestly hope PTST wasn't the reason you stopped watching GoT). But if you are concerned then you could just close such threads after a certain time.

There should be threads where one can discuss what one doesn't like in the show in a civilized manner. And one could name such a thread 'HotD criticism' or something along those lines, with no great focus on raving and ranting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Lord Varys said:

here should be threads where one can discuss what one doesn't like in the show in a civilized manner. And one could name such a thread 'HotD criticism' or something along those lines, with no great focus on raving and ranting.

I agree. They sound like fine things for ProBoards, Tapatalk, etc.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no, it didn't. Beskar or Mandalorian iron exists in the Star Wars universe since before there was a GoT - possibly even since before more there was a significant ASoIaF fanbase. It may be that it was first introduced in The Tales of the Jedi comics in the 1990s, but it was definitely a thing in the early 2000s.

Don't really get why you feel the need to laugh about this.  I was frankly unsure about the timing when it comes to the book being published in 1996, and this makes it clear you really aren't sure yourself.

On the lack of rant and rave threads - that's probably the best argument for HotD not living up to GoT.  Jeebus it was concerning, while also sociologically fascinating, how many and how much people were devoted to hating on the show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Ran said:

I agree. They sound like fine things for hmm, Tapatalk, etc.

Well, okay, but you can also say you just don't want such discussions on your board. You don't have to patronize people by claiming you protect them from themselves.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Don't really get why you feel the need to laugh about this.  I was frankly unsure about the timing when it comes to the book being published in 1996, and this makes it clear you really aren't sure yourself.

Well, I had to laugh about you being so sure about that - I'm unsure about when it was first introduced but it is simply a fact that it was not (1) invented by the Filoni show gang, and (2) inspired by George's works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I had to laugh about you being so sure about that - I'm unsure about when it was first introduced but it is simply a fact that it was not (1) invented by the Filoni show gang, and (2) inspired by George's works.

Yikes, it was a damn joke.  Honestly did not expect anyone getting defensive about intermediate Star Wars history that's literally been retconned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Yikes, it was a damn joke.  Honestly did not expect anyone getting defensive about intermediate Star Wars history that's literally been retconned.

And I laughed, so your joke apparently worked ;-).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, okay, but you can also say you just don't want such discussions on your board.

Haven't I said that? I'm the only person creating or approving threads, after all.

I have no problem with people critiquing the show. I have critiqued it myself when it does things that I consider misses. But I'm not creating a dedicated thread for unalloyed praise or unalloyed critique, however. Discussion about the show should be open to all viewers and not just those who love it or those who hate it.

 

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't have to patronize people by claiming you protect them from themselves.

I shared a theory to explain the curious continued activity in Rant and Rave about a show that ended three years ago. A show I quit part way through, I'll note, so it's not like I'm shocked that people had complaints. But I am shocked that the active complaints lasted long past the ending of the show, and the only reasonable take I can have on it is that the experience of the show was traumatic for some handful of users who kept the thread going for years.

Frankly, I should have listened to my fellow mods who didn't like the idea of the thread. It's much healthier for people to not engage in an echo chamber, and if they really must, I shouldn't abet it by letting them use this forum to that end and gently suggest they go find a forum that gives them that outlet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

(1) I don't see ASOIAF going in that direction for a few reasons. (2) SH and JB don't have a set timeline and are permitted reinvention from time to time. (3) Some characters in westeros can have their backstory further clarified, but all the material for their lifespan is mostly settled and must exist in that framework. Which is part of the reason why these future projects with exception of Snow try to branch out away from the main series. 

(3) Holmes can solve a thousand different cases with no conception of time or aging, just as Bond might save the world three hundred times whilst starting back at point A with every film/book. 

(4) Characters like Harley Quinn are first developed based on the cast we know and follow and become part of the psychological drama starting with Batman and going off from there. The characters have a web of rivalries that build up and do themselves have a certain style that is reminiscent of Batman and his rogue's gallery with recognizable outfits and personality disorders.  

(5) With ASOIAF we have to take characters unrelated (outside of ancestry) to the main cast who lack any specific color or identity apart from being true to a gritty realistic medieval world. What connects them is Martin's writing style, and Martin isn't going to be around to write all these stories in an ever expanding universe.  

(6) There is history, but a lot of the world is just references to our world with a more stereotypical lens. Exploring Essos and further east is just the same as taking from our own history and then crafting a gritty story with vague magic. Any of which can be great or enthralling depending on the writer, but could work just the same without the subheading "GOT." 

(6) Old Valyria is an exception, but how much more people want to watch of dragon lords with an ethnic supremacy before it grows old is a big question. GOT had dragons, but they were a small piece to a bigger tapestry.

(7) Because either the characters have to be iconic with a brand identity or the setting. In ASOIAF the characters have brand power, the setting (in my opinion) does not given how generic it is conceptually. 

(7) ASOIAF has more or less told complete character arcs for its main series and now must rely on the world to be the basis of its connective tissue, and I don't see how that will work. 

(8) I don't think anything about the world or its philosophy are enough. The sigils and family names are too vague and superficial while the gritty cynicism is far too common to stand out as an identifiable trait. 

(9) Star Wars for example has the Jedi and Sith code with both organizations having identifiable trade marks and styles. The red lightsaber and outfits automatically entail a certain mood and psychology whereas seeing a Stag on someone's sigil might as well fall into a number of fake medieval houses.

(6) We'll see. Personally I don't see how it can have much longevity if it just subsists off of a bunch of showrunners who want to write their own medieval fantasy. But that is just my opinion. I didn't see HotD being as popular as it was, and I guess I would reason it has to do with the proximity to GOT which only just came to end three years ago. 

But again, who knows, I could be wrong. 

(1) So there isn't anything stopping HBO with continuing the stories for surviving characters from the original show.

(2) Why can't  ASoIaF characters be permitted reinvention from time to time?

(3) And where exactly does their lifespan end? Because when characters become part of a franchise, that lifespan happens to not just be where the story ends, but also the characters death (and even then, retconning and remakes happen). So taking the Stark children again, a bunch of writers can tell a million different stories of Arya's travels west of Westeros; Sana's suitors, conflict resolutions with the Northern Lords, whatever she wants to do with the Wall; Bran's reign, succession crises etc. These stories can theoretically go on until they're 100 years old.

(4) Characters like Corly Velaryon are first developed based on the cast we know and follow and become part of the psychological drama starting with season 1 of HotD and going off from there. The characters have a web of rivalries that build up and do themselves have a certain style that is reminiscent of GoT and its morally complex characters with recognizable outfits and character motivations.

(5) Didn't Wonder Woman start off like this? Guardians of the Galaxy? The Mandalorian?

(6) So, basically like every other franchise in existence?

(7) The culture and politics of the setting of ASoIaF constrain the motivations and actions of the characters, this what give them their nuance. So long as the writing is guided by that, then the franchise can keep creating iconic characters.

(8) Other franchises don't even dip their feet in the pool compared to the lake ASoIaF is swimming in but apparently this isn't enough for audiences? How are the names and sigils vague and superficial? And how common is this so call "gritty cynicism" exactly?

(9) And what of the direwolves? Weirwood trees? White Walkers? Iconic castles such as the Eyrie, Red Keep, Winterfell? People's unease when a wedding occurs? The iconic catchphrases?

Come on, there's really no argument that can be made that would preclude ASoIaF being as successful as any other franchise. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't have to patronize people by claiming you protect them from themselves.

Yeah I don't know how or when exactly I became Ran's lawyer - check's in the mail btw! - and he's obviously more than capable of defending himself, but someone else needs to say this:  He is not patronizing people by pointing out the obvious.  That's ridiculous.  He was just talking about the invective those threads generated, which is/was very clear to any objective observer.  And at the time he and the other mods clearly went out of their way to be as accommodating as possible to all the different and intense viewpoints that were being issued here - yours included IIRC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have high hopes for this upcoming episode. This'll be the setup for the new dynamics between the characters and it matters a lot, I think. Especially with Alicent's children.

What's worrying (to me) is that there's still no Daeron. I wonder why wouldn't they show that, when we get the three other children of Alicent.  I mean, based on the casual luck I have in life, I wouldn't be surprised the character who's name I choose (simply bc it's cool) is the one single important secondary character who gets cut. Sorry, I may have messed up our timeline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been pondering Daeron. I wonder if it's possible that they've decided to give much of his story -- namely his role in the Reach half of the war -- to Aemond. After his initial action -- Lucerys, Rook's Rest, helping to seize Harrenhal -- you can have him decide Criston Cole has the riverlands well in hand (he doesn't) and flies south to support Lord Hightower, and stays there for a long stretch. You eventually have Cole's death, Harrenhal seized back, maybe even First Tumbleton, and he ends up running back to Harrenhal to recapture it where it turns out this unusually striking older woman he had a fling with is pregnant and so on and so forth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

I shared a theory to explain the curious continued activity in Rant and Rave about a show that ended three years ago. A show I quit part way through, I'll note, so it's not like I'm shocked that people had complaints. But I am shocked that the active complaints lasted long past the ending of the show, and the only reasonable take I can have on it is that the experience of the show was traumatic for some handful of users who kept the thread going for years.

Frankly, I should have listened to my fellow mods who didn't like the idea of the thread. It's much healthier for people to not engage in an echo chamber, and if they really must, I shouldn't abet it by letting them use this forum to that end and gently suggest they go find a forum that gives them that outlet.

I get that, which is why I said you could always close this down after it should have fizzled out on its own. I'm not in disagreement that it isn't all that healthy to continue to bitch about GoT for years and years. I didn't participate much in those threads, but I think there is a legitimate need for those for a time. For HotD I think it would be enough to have one criticism thread of the show where people can discuss what they didn't like in general and in connection to individual episodes.

That's also true for positive aspects, I'd say. I intended to write a longer piece about how I very much enjoyed the way Viserys was written and portrayed, but that's not something that would fit all that well in an episode per episode discussion form.

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah I don't know how or when exactly I became Ran's lawyer - check's in the mail btw! - and he's obviously more than capable of defending himself, but someone else needs to say this:  He is not patronizing people by pointing out the obvious.  That's ridiculous.  He was just talking about the invective those threads generated, which is/was very clear to any objective observer.  And at the time he and the other mods clearly went out of their way to be as accommodating as possible to all the different and intense viewpoints that were being issued here - yours included IIRC.

Ran could just as well shut down the entire board to protect me from positively obsessing about ASoIaF. Haven't I better things to do?

That's the thing that irked me there - but I do agree that one really doesn't need such GoT threads now or shouldn't encourage them. But the new show is a different thing and is likely never going to gain as much 'hate momentum' as a GoT. There are no character assassinations to be had in that show, since the source material didn't really flesh out (m)any characters in detail.

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I have high hopes for this upcoming episode. This'll be the setup for the new dynamics between the characters and it matters a lot, I think. Especially with Alicent's children.

Yeah, should work pretty well. Must say, though, I hated it how they flooded social media with stills and clips. Did I read the leaks and spoilers? Sure enough, because I wanted to know what the show about and how they would adapt it. It piqued my interest. But I hate it if the actual depiction of a lot of things can be watched before the episode airs.

3 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

What's worrying (to me) is that there's still no Daeron. I wonder why wouldn't they show that, when we get the three other children of Alicent.  I mean, based on the casual luck I have in life, I wouldn't be surprised the character who's name I choose (simply bc it's cool) is the one single important secondary character who gets cut. Sorry, I may have messed up our timeline.

Oh, there you are in for a disappointment and a positive surprise:

Spoiler

Daeron won't be in season 1 at all, but he hasn't been cut. He is already in Oldtown as a ward, page, and squire, and they reference him.

I'd read that as a positive sign, them wanting to have a Stannis-like character they are name-dropping in the first season to introduce and develop in the second season. The inclusion of Otto's brother in the first season indicates that Oldtown and the Hightowers are likely going to feature big time in season 2.

There is a lot of potential there with Daeron as an aloof third party who he isn't really connected to the quarrels of the family. They could show him as a guy who wants to restore peace rather than escalate the war further, and then slowly show how things spiral out of control.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I've been pondering Daeron. I wonder if it's possible that they've decided to give much of his story -- namely his role in the Reach half of the war -- to Aemond. After his initial action -- Lucerys, Rook's Rest, helping to seize Harrenhal -- you can have him decide Criston Cole has the riverlands well in hand (he doesn't) and flies south to support Lord Hightower, and stays there for a long stretch. You eventually have Cole's death, Harrenhal seized back, maybe even First Tumbleton, and he ends up running back to Harrenhal to recapture it where it turns out this unusually striking older woman he had a fling with is pregnant and so on and so forth.

That strikes me as overly complicated. But it would depend how fast the story continues in season 2. They should take their time to introduce all the various Black and Green houses and hopefully they won't gloss over the rather crucial events that take place early in the Riverlands.

I'm rather inclined they might not rush to Rook's Rest too quickly - or have less time pass between that event and the fall of KL.

Daeron's story could be one of a guy who isn't keen to fight in the war and who then ends up getting caught up in because of conflicting loyalties.

However, we should clearly see more movement in the characters - Baela and Rhaena have to do something, meaning Daeron could easily enough fly to KL for a visit early in season 2 to reconnect with his family ... and possibly be appalled by what he witnesses there. He could even visit Dragonstone to talk with Jace and Rhaenyra, depending how they depict his relations to them.

Rather than going with Corlys' ridiculous early Aegon-Jaehaera match the natural other way to restore a peace would have been offering Rhaena's hand to Daeron. In the wake of Luke's death she is the Black girl that's short a betrothed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...