Is Stannis in Denial about Wanting to be King?

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He doesn't say that, he just changes the conversation.

He says it's his duty as Robert's heir.

Duty is an obligation.

 

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Right, but Ned says Stannis so Renly had to change his plans, which immediately was a coronation because he... (All together now) desperately wanted it.

Stannis never comes up in his convo with Ned, you're mistaking it with either the show or his convo with Petyr.

Renly urges Ned to seize the kids and be officially acknowledged as regent, Ned refuses and Renly assumes Ned's a goner and flees King's Landing.

Renly only considers crowning himself once it's impossible to separate Joffrey from the Lannisters, Ned was the last ship.

 

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I see what your saying, and I agree Stannis desperately wants the throne (like he's not the rightful king. Targaryen is a thing) but I'm also confident his brothers wanted it too 

His brothers certainly wanted it you don't claim a throne by accident, how much it's unknown but Stannis is adding a qualifier that only applies to him.

[Hugorfonics]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

He says it's his duty as Robert's heir.

Duty is an obligation.

Yes. He says it's not a question of wants. That's not saying he doesn't want it at all, just that being king is his duty. 

Stannis never emphatically denies he wants the throne.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stannis never comes up in his convo with Ned, you're mistaking it with either the show or his convo with Petyr.

Renly urges Ned to seize the kids and be officially acknowledged as regent, Ned refuses and Renly assumes Ned's a goner and flees King's Landing.

Renly only considers crowning himself once it's impossible to separate Joffrey from the Lannisters, Ned was the last ship.

Ned was the first, what Roberts will said. But the second should have been Stannis. I mean, he's clearly jumping the lines of succession here.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

His brothers certainly wanted it you don't claim a throne by accident, how much it's unknown but Stannis is adding a qualifier that only applies to him.

I think it was an applicable summary 

[Craving Peaches]

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

For sure, Loras is adequate. But still the appointment was done with favoritism in mind or at least it was a political decision, not a military one. And for all we know the knight of flowers woulda killed it, but theres no way anyone could have known that. He was green while other notable commanders were passed over. If not a lethal mistake its still a factor worth looking into.

I think it was more a mix of all 3 factors to be honest. Renly is quite pragmatic. People wouldn't know exactly how Loras would perform but they could make a reasonable assumption based on how he did in tourneys. Which was very well. The only person with experience Renly passed over was Tarly, probably because he wanted him close at hand to advise. The others who wanted to lead the van (I think) were all young and inexperienced like Loras.

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Renlys army appears to be far better, but my point was Renlys still underestimating the competition which is never wise. This too is a factor.

I'm not sure about that, if anything he could have been overestimating Stannis, he brought quadruple his numbers in heavy cavalry alone to fight him. 

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Renlys army was massive. Medieval armies were like locusts to the fields they were staying in, Renlys size was like the spotted lantern fly.

 

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And if it was not over quickly then Renlys royally fucked, his battle is not only against Stannis but also time, this surely counts as a factor.
His queen and her father.

I don't think it would have really been an issue. He only has a small portion of his army with him and is in his own lands. They can forage etc.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

His mind is elsewhere

I didn't really feel that was the case when reading.

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its not a crazy thing to spend your final moments of your previous life with your lover before embarking on your lifes climax, but it clearly is a factor, and with all the other minimal factors in place (not choosing the place, the time, the experienced generals not up front, fighting time, far from the train, unable to protect Marge if she is in jepordy, etc) Renlys win was certainly far from guaranteed

But he did have experienced generals both in commanding positions and presumably with him as where would Tarly be if he wasn't in charge of one of the army parts? Margaery is with his 80,000 strong host in the friendly lands of the Reach. Why would she be in jeopardy? I think that his win is supposed to look guaranteed to make his death more shocking.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes. He says it's not a question of wants. That's not saying he doesn't want it at all, just that being king is his duty. 

Stannis never emphatically denies he wants the throne

Stannis is making a clear distinction between his brothers greedily eyeing for the throne and him being unwillingly pushed towards it by duty.

 

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned was the first, what Roberts will said. But the second should have been Stannis. I mean, he's clearly jumping the lines of succession here.

Why the second should have been Stannis? How can he even get to him if Stannis has made it impossible? 

Stannis offers absolutely nothing to Renly, he's more a hindrance than anything, Ned is respected, feared, beloved and has powerful allies... Stannis is only feared.

And if Renly is willing to jump three stairs in the succesion line to go to Stannis, why not five and he gets the Tyrell support and make his bid a sure thing?

 

 

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think it was an applicable summary 

I think it's not. The decision of crowning Robert came from Jon Arryn and or Ned. The decision of crowning Renly only comes after Ned refuses  his plan to get the regency.

Stannis meanwhile,  blindsides and abandons Robert, he steals his fleet and goes awol, he plots to get Renly killed to get his armies and after he mismanages them and loses badly, he plots to kill his nephew.

 

It is not an applicable summary.

[Hugorfonics]

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly is quite pragmatic

He is a usurper and traitor who as a child was known for being eccentric and vain always demanding the center of attention. As an adult he orchestrates a scheme to replace Cersei under the incorrect assumption that Marge is Lynannas doppelganger which would reawaken Roberts one true love, or some nonsense. His entirety of work at the SC was to be a yes man to his failing king. The only thing worth while he did was allow Brienne to fight beside him, and that's after she beat up and humiliated his entire army. Why do you think he's pragmatic?

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The others who wanted to lead the van (I think) were all young and inexperienced like Loras.

I don't think so, the chivalry of the south was there. Like Lord Rowan for example.

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure about that, if anything he could have been overestimating Stannis

He calls them onion knights and codfish sailors 

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

he brought quadruple his numbers in heavy cavalry alone to fight him. 

Another factor. Renly is making this a decisive battle which could go horribly wrong 

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think it would have really been an issue. He only has a small portion of his army with him and is in his own lands. They can forage etc.

The entire cavalry needs to graze, these goddamn knights travel with squires, camp followers and other useless mouths. Also foraging during battle means men being averted. And majorly if the train burns Renly will eventually starve.

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I didn't really feel that was the case when reading.

Small thing, he says he's praying and nobody cared so its not a big deal. In fact his brother was at that moment also praying, err fucking. Still, I think it's worth noting. 

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Margaery is with his 80,000 strong host in the friendly lands of the Reach. Why would she be in jeopardy?

Because she's a non combatant by a battlefield.

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think that his win is supposed to look guaranteed to make his death more shocking.

Then why did GRRM include Catelyn's notes and Randylls? Why did GRRM write about the Lannisters perceiving Stannis as the greater threat?

 

 

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stannis is making a clear distinction between his brothers greedily eyeing for the throne and him being unwillingly pushed towards it by duty.

Well, it's kinda true. Right? I mean that's what it is. I agree Stannis is kinda playing the victim here but he clearly thinks his honor dictates him to avenge Robert and reinstate Baratheon rule.

Where as his brothers had no honor to fall back on (not saying theyre dishonorable like that) and their only campaign speeches seems to amount to fuck that guy.

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why the second should have been Stannis? How can he even get to him if Stannis has made it impossible? 

He can take a ship to his brothers fortress and pay homage like a good little brother 

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stannis offers absolutely nothing to Renly, he's more a hindrance than anything, Ned is respected, feared, beloved and has powerful allies... Stannis is only feared.

He offers two things, one legality. The other, being not making an enemy of Stannis.

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

And if Renly is willing to jump three stairs in the succesion line to go to Stannis, why not five and he gets the Tyrell support and make his bid a sure thing?

In for a stag in for a dragon? Because gambling doesn't always work out.

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

The decision of crowning Robert came from Jon Arryn and or Ned

Bullshit. Ned made Robert sure, but he didn't crown him. 

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

The decision of crowning Renly only comes after Ned refuses  his plan to get the regency

So pretty quickly.

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stannis meanwhile,  blindsides and abandons Robert, he steals his fleet and goes awol, he plots to get Renly killed to get his armies and after he mismanages them and loses badly, he plots to kill his nephew.

Of course, my guy desperately wants the throne. 

The Edric debacle can be written off as Stannis believed he was desperate to save the world, not just sit on a chair.

40 minutes ago, frenin said:

It is not an applicable summary.

Theyre warlords who rule over barbarians. They desperately want the throne like they desperately want food and water.

Does Dany desperately want the throne? Balon? Euron? Joffrey? Cersei? Am I forgetting anyone, how about Roose Bolton?

Edited September 21, 2022 by Hugorfonics

[Arthur Peres]

Renly and Stannis calling each other horrible is like the pot calling the kettle black.

But Renly being awful does not turn Stannis good.

If Stannis did not cared for being king, he could just made what Master Aemon did and get out of the way of his brother, instead he choose to murder him.

[frenin]

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well, it's kinda true. Right? I mean that's what it is. I agree Stannis is kinda playing the victim here but he clearly thinks his honor dictates him to avenge Robert and reinstate Baratheon rule.

 

It's not, not by a longshot. The man left Robert to die, how can he talk about avenge him?

The difference between Stannis and Renly is that the latter has no qualms to say the quiet part out loud while Stannis has to mask his desires as obligations.

 

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Where as his brothers had no honor to fall back on (not saying theyre dishonorable like that) and their only campaign speeches seems to amount to fuck that guy.

Seems pretty honest to me.

I don't like that guy, that guy gotta go it's better to let your brother die, and ignore your duty to him, and wait till you actually kinda, maybe have the best claim.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He can take a ship to his brothers fortress and pay homage like a good little brother 

 

1. He has no fleet to do so.
2. Stannis is blocking the seas.
3. Why should pay him homage? Renly doesn't know about the twincest and when he does he doesn't believe in it. Renly crowning Stannis is no less usurpation and treason than him crowning himself in his eyes and most of the Realm.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He offers two things, one legality. The other, being not making an enemy of Stannis.

He offers a flimsy excuse no one really believes in and unless he knows about the shadow babies, he does not need to fear Stannis.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why did GRRM write about the Lannisters perceiving Stannis as the greater threat?

He also wrote them writing off Robb as an incovenience easy to be dealt with due his inexperience.

They also didn't know the strenght Stannis truly commanded or could command in the near future.

Stannis himself and his allies knew he had no chance of winning without a sizable army.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

In for a stag in for a dragon? Because gambling doesn't always work out.

Sure but Renly and the Tyrells are a far better bet than Renly and Stannis.

Stannis stole Renly's armies and still was destroyed by the Tyrells anyway.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bullshit. Ned made Robert sure, but he didn't crown him. 

The High Septon did, i'm sure.

Both Ned and JonA acted as Kingmakers.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So pretty quickly.

About three- five months, give or take. Not really quickly

 

 

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The Edric debacle can be written off as Stannis believed he was desperate to save the world, not just sit on a chair.

Hmm, the plot is directly tied to awake dragons to get the throne.

Sure, Stannis may do something but he's convinced by burning his enemies, getting the throne and avenging himself on this traitors.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Theyre warlords who rule over barbarians. They desperately want the throne like they desperately want food and water.

Does Dany desperately want the throne? Balon? Euron? Joffrey? Cersei? Am I forgetting anyone, how about Roose Bolton?

Fair enough.

[Craving Peaches]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He is a usurper and traitor who as a child was known for being eccentric and vain always demanding the center of attention.

Eh...I think only one person mentions this, and it's Cressen. He was like five years old and had just endured nearly starving to death. As an adult he was a bit vain but not so vain that he couldn't laugh at himself and admit his flaws. Nothing about his behaviour strikes me as eccentric.

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

As an adult he orchestrates a scheme to replace Cersei under the incorrect assumption that Marge is Lynannas doppelganger which would reawaken Roberts one true love, or some nonsense.

The scheme was based on his desire to get rid of Cersei who wanted to kill him. He doesn't assume Margaery looks like Lyanna, he goes to Ned to check. And it isn't essential to the scheme that she looks like Lyanna, just that she looks good enough to attract Robert's attention.

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

His entirety of work at the SC was to be a yes man to his failing king.

He criticises Robert's rule on multiple occasions.

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The only thing worth while he did was allow Brienne to fight beside him, and that's after she beat up and humiliated his entire army

??? 

Brienne beat Loras and a few other knights, that's hardly his entire army. And she didn't humiliate them, at least not intentionally. She competed in a melee. That's it.

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think so, the chivalry of the south was there. Like Lord Rowan for example.

Rowan doesn't ask to lead the van, and Renly puts him in charge of another part of the army anyway. The other people who are mentioned as asking, aside from Tarly, are I think Ser Guyard and Jon Fossoway, again young knights with no experience like Loras.

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He calls them onion knights and codfish sailors

He calls them that, but actions speak louder than words or so they say, and what he actually does is bring four times their numbers in just heavy cavalry to fight them.

26 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Another factor. Renly is making this a decisive battle which could go horribly wrong 

It's not really decisive because even if by some miracle he manages to lose his 80,000 foot are still there, the bulk of his forces remain unscathed.

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The entire cavalry needs to graze, these goddamn knights travel with squires, camp followers and other useless mouths. Also foraging during battle means men being averted. And majorly if the train burns Renly will eventually starve.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point because I don't think his smaller army could starve in friendly lands that have barely been affected by the war.

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because she's a non combatant by a battlefield.

...But she's not? She's in the Reach at that time, where no battles were occuring, surrounded by the largest army on the continent who will protect her.

30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Then why did GRRM include Catelyn's notes and Randylls? Why did GRRM write about the Lannisters perceiving Stannis as the greater threat?

Randyl makes one comment which he clearly didn't think was that much of an issue because he didn't press the point and only brought it up once. Catelyn is biased because Renly is not helping her son. When he's marching slowly she thinks he's wasting time, when he moves quickly she thinks he's being hasty. She is very critical because he isn't helping the Stark cause.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He can take a ship to his brothers fortress and pay homage like a good little brother 

Unless Renly has telepathy or prophetic visions he can't, he has no idea what Stannis is up to on Dragonstone, what Stannis does and doesn't know, because Stannis has been totally silent for nine months. The first time Renly hears from him again is when he sends his letter claiming to be king, after a year of silence, by which point it's too late. If Stannis wanted Renly's support he should have acted sooner. Was he expecting Renly to just sit around waiting for him whilst the shit was hitting the fan? Renly had no way to discern Stannis' intentions and it was the fault of Stannis himself.

[Craving Peaches]

Also I don't think the legality argument for Stannis is necessarily so cut and dry. Jaehaerys the First arguably establishes a legal obligation for the Crown to defend the Faith in lieu of the Faith Militant, an obligation that Stannis, with his sept burning, not only fails to uphold but actively goes against. So from that perspective he may have forfeited his right to the throne.

[Hugorfonics]

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's not, not by a longshot. The man left Robert to die, how can he talk about avenge him?

Does Stannis have a magic sword? (lol) Hes not Symeon Stareyes, he let Robert die to save himself and to be able to rid the throne of Lannisters.
Anyway thats the past, if he failed Robert it was in the past tense. Now in the present he can avenge

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

The difference between Stannis and Renly is that the latter has no qualms to say the quiet part out loud while Stannis has to mask his desires as obligations.

But only because he has an obligation. If Renly did hed be singing the same sad tune

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

Seems pretty honest to me.

I don't like that guy, that guy gotta go it's better to let your brother die, and ignore your duty to him, and wait till you actually kinda, maybe have the best claim.

Its honest but its also a brake of protocol and the basic law, unlike Stannis who is following the rules. Cruel and craven it may be.

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why should pay him homage? Renly doesn't know about the twincest and when he does he doesn't believe in it. Renly crowning Stannis is no less usurpation and treason than him crowning himself in his eyes and most of the Realm.

He offers a flimsy excuse no one really believes in and unless he knows about the shadow babies, he does not need to fear Stannis.

Slightly more acceptable usurpation though. We see Robb would have likely thrown his support behind Stannis if the roles were reversed. 
Theres other things then shadowbabies that can assassinate, everyone in the sunset knows Stannis is dangerous except apparently his brother. Dangerous and desperate, bad choice to make an enemy of.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He also wrote them writing off Robb as an incovenience easy to be dealt with due his inexperience.

They also didn't know the strenght Stannis truly commanded or could command in the near future.

Stannis himself and his allies knew he had no chance of winning without a sizable army.

Stannis and his army are a bunch of fundamentalist nuts, they believe all sorts of weird shit. Anyway, my point was the author is clearly sewing some doubt in the readers mind

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Sure but Renly and the Tyrells are a far better bet than Renly and Stannis.

Stannis stole Renly's armies and still was destroyed by the Tyrells anyway.

But all together is even better then apart. But for sure, everyones fucked either way, if they had common sense theyd bend the knee to Sansa and get it over with.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

The High Septon did, i'm sure.

Both Ned and JonA acted as Kingmakers.

They killed all his enemies and gave him a kingdom but there was never any doubt that Robert would be king. After kingslaying the western lords ask Jaime if he wants to be kingmaker and his thoughts go to Robert, not Jon or Ned. We dont know much about Jon but Neds entire arc is just running away from his responsibilities despite being the only man able to do the job, so he definitely didnt desperately want the throne.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

About three- five months, give or take. Not really quickly

Closer to a week I think.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Stannis may do something but he's convinced by burning his enemies, getting the throne and avenging himself on this traitors.

Quite the character.


 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

The scheme was based on his desire to get rid of Cersei who wanted to kill him. He doesn't assume Margaery looks like Lyanna, he goes to Ned to check. And it isn't essential to the scheme that she looks like Lyanna, just that she looks good enough to attract Robert's attention.

It seems to be based off of her appearance to Lyanna. Neds all like wtf? And he doesnt even know the real scheme

Quote

Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused. Could it be that Lord Renly, who looked so like a young Robert, had conceived a passion for a girl he fancied to be a young Lyanna? That struck him as more than passing queer.

 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

He criticises Robert's rule on multiple occasions.

And does whatever he wants

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

??? 

Brienne beat Loras and a few other knights, that's hardly his entire army. And she didn't humiliate them, at least not ??intentionally. She competed in a melee. That's it.

???
Everysingle one of them had money on the line on when they will rape her. After beating them up they cried trickery and every other excuse they can think of. They were clearly humiliated

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

The other people who are mentioned as asking, aside from Tarly, are I think Ser Guyard and Jon Fossoway, again young knights with no experience like Loras.

The entire chivalry of the south was there. Thats more then just Loras.

Quote

Catelyn sent Hal Mollen to tend to their horses while she accompanied Renly back to the royal pavilion at the heart of the encampment. Inside the walls of green silk, his captains and lords bannermen were waiting to hear word of the parley.

Lords bannermen. Plural

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point

Ok

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 9/20/2022 at 4:23 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Does anyone else get the feeling that Stannis, despite all his protestations to the contrary, does actually want to be king very much? He denies it and goes on about his duty, but I think inside he would like all the recognition and power in entails. He seems quite bitter about being overshadowed by his brothers. There is also the fact that he has done some questionable things to get a throne he says he doesn't want. I know he goes on and about duty and law, but I think at some point you have to wonder if those are really all that motivates him. And if he was so concerned about duty, why did he abandon Robert?

He attacked King's Landing.  Actions speak louder than words.  He wants the power of a king at least.  That in itself is not corrupt.  What offended me about him is pretending to be Azor Ahai. He will be exposed as one of the three lies though.  The first of the lies according to the prophecy given to Daenerys. 

[Craving Peaches]

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It seems to be based off of her appearance to Lyanna. Neds all like wtf? And he doesnt even know the real scheme

I don't think there is enough evidence to claim the entire scheme was based of Margaery looking like Lyanna. Renly probably hoped she did because it would make things easier, but I don't think there is enough to go on to say that the whole scheme was based on this. The motivation behind the scheme seems to be to get rid of Cersei.

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And does whatever he wants

Well that's not entirely true because he doesn't follow Robert's preferred heir, for one. Also we see them in one council meeting together where Renly agrees with Robert, that's not really enough to say that he agrees with everything Robert says. Renly gets given commands from Robert, he can't really refuse a direct order from the King. He is critical of Robert's ruling practices, he says so to Ned on multiple occasions.

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

???
Everysingle one of them had money on the line on when they will rape her. After beating them up they cried trickery and every other excuse they can think of. They were clearly humiliated

But that wasn't the entire army, was it? Not everyone was involved in the wager. And not everyone was in the melee Brienne competed in. So I don't think the claim that Brienne beat up and humiliated his entire army was correct.

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The entire chivalry of the south was there. Thats more then just Loras.

This is from the scene:

Quote

Lord Mathis Rowan spoke up. "Who shall have the van?"

"Your Grace," said Ser Jon Fossoway, "I beg the honor."

"Beg all you like," said Ser Guyard the Green, "by rights it should be one of the seven who strikes the first blow."

Quote

"It takes more than a pretty cloak to charge a shield wall," Randyll Tarly announced. "I was leading Mace Tyrell's van when you were still sucking on your mother's teat, Guyard."

A clamor filled the pavilion, as other men loudly set forth their claims. The knights of summer, Catelyn thought. Renly raised a hand. "Enough, my lords. If I had a dozen vans, all of you should have one, but the greatest glory by rights belongs to the greatest knight. Ser Loras shall strike the first blow."

"With a glad heart, Your Grace." The Knight of Flowers knelt before the king. "Grant me your blessing, and a knight to ride beside me with your banner. Let the stag and rose go to battle side by side."

So Catelyn thinks that the men wanting to lead the van are all untried just like Loras. The only person with experience who seems to want to lead is Randyl. The others are Ser Guyard, Jon Fossoway, and other 'knights of summer'. So with the exception of Randyl it seems that all the other volunteers are inexperienced, just like Loras. Loras is recognised by almost everyone as one of the greatest knights in the realm so I really don't see how he was that bad of a choice.

[Craving Peaches]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Does Stannis have a magic sword? (lol) Hes not Symeon Stareyes, he let Robert die to save himself and to be able to rid the throne of Lannisters.
Anyway thats the past, if he failed Robert it was in the past tense. Now in the present he can avenge

Thing is he kind of left Robert to die, so how can he really avenge him? It's arguably his fault Robert's dead in the first place, if Stannis had told Robert about the Lannisters, Robert might have survived. If Stannis told Robert and Robert didn't listen and the Lannisters killed him anyway, then he could avenge Robert, but since he left him to die...I don't know if it really works that way.

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Does Stannis have a magic sword? (lol) Hes not Symeon Stareyes, he let Robert die to save himself and to be able to rid the throne of Lannisters.
Anyway thats the past, if he failed Robert it was in the past tense. Now in the present he can avenge

Does he need a magic sword to inform either Robert or Ned?

 

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But only because he has an obligation. If Renly did hed be singing the same sad tune

Doubtful, of all the Baratheons, Renly is the only one who'd step down and remain a Lord Paramount if he believed it suited him best.

Renly is cynical enough to grab or refuse what he wants. He's certainly not Stannis.

And he doesn't have an obligation, no one is forcing him to the throne, quite the contrary, the Realm could not be clearer when it comes to not want him anywhere near the throne. You're mistaking obligation with entitlement.

 

 

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its honest but its also a brake of protocol and the basic law, unlike Stannis who is following the rules. Cruel and craven it may be.

The basic law is whatever people excuse can come up with.

Stannis's convenient of bastardry is hardly a step up, it  just makes him seem opportunist, which is a good reasoon why so few believe him.

 

 

Quote

Slightly more acceptable usurpation though. We see Robb would have likely thrown his support behind Stannis if the roles were reversed. 

Acceptable to whom exactly?

Robb was not going to accept Stannis unless he heard of the incest, he believes both of them traitors but Renly a most blatant one. For those who believe the children are for real, there's little difference between Stannis and Renly.

Renly has more swords than Stannis, Robb or Tywin combined. He's handsome and charismatic by all and the commons adore him.

If Renly is going to jump the shark and commit treason, he's clearly the best bet to do it. Going towards Stannis appeases no one but Stannis and still leaves the Reach as a wildcard.

 

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Stannis and his army are a bunch of fundamentalist nuts, they believe all sorts of weird shit. Anyway, my point was the author is clearly sewing some doubt in the readers mind

They clearly didn't believe they were going nowhere.

The author seems to be hyping up Stannis, which is fair enough,  his foes only know he's gathering strenght and he's badass. We get to see how pitiful his situation is, by his own words.

 

 

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But all together is even better then apart. But for sure, everyones fucked either way, if they had common sense theyd bend the knee to Sansa and get it over with.

You're assuming the Tyrells are going to follow Renly wherever he may go, my point is that they won't. They have will on their own and they'll go whoever gives them the most things, Renly did and then Joffrey did but at any point Stannis did.

 

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They killed all his enemies and gave him a kingdom but there was never any doubt that Robert would be king. After kingslaying the western lords ask Jaime if he wants to be kingmaker and his thoughts go to Robert, not Jon or Ned. We dont know much about Jon but Neds entire arc is just running away from his responsibilities despite being the only man able to do the job, so he definitely didnt desperately want the throne.

Given that the final decision of crowning Robert was only made around the time of the trident.

If I were to guess i'd say that the idea of crowning a dragon became an increasingly bitter drink the more the fighting went on till they acknowledged the Targs had to go entirely.

 

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Closer to a week I think.

Renly escapes before Ned is seized and he crowns himself after the Whispering Wood.

It is not a week.

Edited September 22, 2022 by frenin

[Craving Peaches]

11 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

What offended me about him is pretending to be Azor Ahai. He will be exposed as one of the three lies though.  The first of the lies according to the prophecy given to Daenerys. 

I am undecided as to whether he himself genuinely believes he is the prophesised saviour or not. He's certainly willing to go with whatever gives him power but does he actually think he is the legendary hero or is he just pretending?

[Mad King Bolton]

I don’t disagree with any particular points but I’d say that duty is enough. Want or not, all his actions can be justified if he feels it’s his duty to be king. Duty comes first to him it seems in all things, and so he would do any questionable thing or immoral thing from another perspective to be king because it’s justified. 
It’s possible he just plain wants it, but as he’s stated it’s his duty and he is shown to be dutiful with lots of evidence, it’s enough for me to say his desires are irrelevant. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Mad King Bolton said:

he is shown to be dutiful with lots of evidence

What makes me question how dutiful he really is, is that he abandoned Robert to the Lannisters. He had good cause of self-preservation but it was his duty to inform Robert of the threat, even if it cost him his life or Robert wouldn't listen, he was still obliged to do so.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Mad King Bolton said:

Want or not, all his actions can be justified if he feels it’s his duty to be king. Duty comes first to him it seems in all things, and so he would do any questionable thing or immoral thing from another perspective to be king because it’s justified. 

That just sounds like he's using duty as an excuse for everything he does.

[Mad King Bolton]

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What makes me question how dutiful he really is, is that he abandoned Robert to the Lannisters. He had good cause of self-preservation but it was his duty to inform Robert of the threat, even if it cost him his life or Robert wouldn't listen, he was still obliged to do so.

I’d agree but did he not inform Robert? My understanding was that he had informed Robert or attempted to with Jon Arryn. Arryn died and stannis lost the chance or felt that the message could not get through and his best course of action was to prepare to return with force.  What you suggest is just as possible though and it’s a good point to question if he did all he could to inform Robert. I say that based on results of him informing the realm of the big secret and how that turned out for his integrity, that he did what was wise and then prepared a force to take action against cersei and Jaime. My opinion.

[Mad King Bolton]

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That just sounds like he's using duty as an excuse for everything he does.

yes, however my point is that how can you say it’s isn’t actually him doing his duty as intended? He says this is my duty, then does the action. If he feels it IS his duty then he’s doing that, if he is just saying that it’s his duty but actually feels it’s just what he wants, we can’t tell the difference. But if he’s to be king, and more than that, Azor ahai, then all his actions ARE his duty and he’s doing them, even when they suck.