Jump to content

Is Stannis in Denial about Wanting to be King?


Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Both should have listened to Catelyn and worked out their differences after the Lannisters were dealt with.

Catelyn's idea was nice, but I think there was too much bad blood spilt at that time for anyone to agree to it. Stannis certainly wouldn't listen. Renly outnumbered Stannis four to one in just heavy cavalry so he had no reason to back down from a battle he was sure to win. And I don't know how she was planning on convincing Robb to step down without him massively losing face amongst his lords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Yes. 

Citation?

He wonders why his brothers desperately wanted it, that's not saying he doesn't want it 

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

. Renly outnumbered Stannis four to one in just heavy cavalry so he had no reason to back down from a battle he was sure to win. 

Perhaps you should say likely to win? Four to one is a lot but it's not as much of a difference as BW or the Wall, Stannis' other battles. Numbers don't mean everything, in fact in asoiaf the smaller army usually prevails.

Also Renlys war council was just, no.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Renly took his brother for granted and suffered for it.

I think Stannis took Renly for granted more than Renly took Stannis for granted. Renly expects Stannis to not attack him and attack the Lannisters. Stannis expects Renly to magically know about the incest, then magically know that he knows about the incest and so come and support him as king. Why he thought Renly would know this despite not sending any communications for 9 months I have no idea. He did eventually send a letter but that was far too late. Was he thinking Renly would just sit around and do nothing until he came calling? Renly had to act quickly initially to gain enough support to act against the Lannisters. There's no time to wait around for Stannis to give the go-ahead given he hasn't said anything for almost a year at that point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Perhaps you should say likely to win? Four to one is a lot but it's not as much of a difference as BW or the Wall, Stannis' other battles. Numbers don't mean everything, in fact in asoiaf the smaller army usually prevails.

I'm going to stick with sure to win. The battle with the Wildlings is not comparable as Stannis is facing an army of Westerosi heavy cavalry with a hostile fortress to his back, he is in a bad position and lacks the element of surprise, in addition his troops were not the veteran troops like at the Wall, they weren't great quality as pointed out by Renly and Stannis, a deal of them were sellswords who are notoriously undependable. There is also no mention of Stannis erecting any defensive fieldworks.

When the battle starts, Stannis would be attacked from the front and the back. He has limited options for where to retreat. The only 'advantage' he has is the sun, which isn't really that helpful as it is instantly nullified by any cloud. Also it may benefit Renly more as his horses will be less likely to shy away when charging.

Stannis was all set up to lose the battle. Not that he never intended to do battle in the first place. He went there to kill Renly and take his armies. Bit of a luck based plan though, if Renly doesn't come personally and just sends a subordinate who has no interest in parleying then bye bye Stannis.

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also Renlys war council was just, no.

What was so bad about it? He listened to everyone before making his decision, both in whether they should go to fight Stannis and before they are to fight Stannis. If Randy Tarly, really, really thought the sun was going to be a massive issue he would have tried harder to convince Renly. I don't think he was that bothered about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Catelyn's idea was nice, but I think there was too much bad blood spilt at that time for anyone to agree to it. Stannis certainly wouldn't listen. Renly outnumbered Stannis four to one in just heavy cavalry so he had no reason to back down from a battle he was sure to win. And I don't know how she was planning on convincing Robb to step down without him massively losing face amongst his lords.

Yea, but Cat’s idea would have not involved Renly having to murder his brother. If Renly cared at all, about not being a kinslayer, he would have pushed harder. He also ignored most of the advice his generals gave him.

Edited by sifth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also it may benefit Renly more as his horses will be less likely to shy away when charging.

If the horses charge into the sunlight the animals could lose sight, let alone the knights 

24 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What was so bad about it?

He agreed to every preparation Stannis made. Under no circumstances should the opponent choose the field of battle. Cannae, Austerlitz, Red Cliffs, these are the greatest battles in history. All incredibly one sided because the opponent choose where to fight

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, but Cat’s idea would have not involved Renly having to murder his brother. If Renly cared at all, about not being a kinslayer, he would have pushed harder.

I don't think Renly would ever have to murder Stannis, Stannis falling to one of Renly's troops in battle is not the same as Renly murdering him. I believe the author himself has even said that it would be a stretch to call Renly a kinslayer had this situation occurred.

31 minutes ago, sifth said:

He also ignored most of the advice his generals gave him.

How did he ignore them? When they are deciding on whether to go fight Stannis or not, Rowan says don't bother, Tarly says he should go, Renly then asks everyone else what they think and they agree with Tarly, then Renly says they will fight. When preparing to fight Stannis, Rowan still says they don't need to bother, Tarly comments that Stannis chose the time etc. to which Renly responds. If Tarly really thought it was a big issue he would have pressed harder. I don't see how Renly ignored his commanders, he listened to them and took their advice on board, the only thing he didn't agree with was the sun thing which I really don't think was that big an issue otherwise Tarly etc. would have been more concerned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If the horses charge into the sunlight the animals could lose sight, let alone the knights

I read that horses not being able to see exactly what is in front of them may help with a cavalry charge, since they will be less likely to shy away eg. break the charge.

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He agreed to every preparation Stannis made. Under no circumstances should the opponent choose the field of battle. Cannae, Austerlitz, Red Cliffs, these are the greatest battles in history. All incredibly one sided because the opponent choose where to fight

I don't think those battles are really comparable to this situation. Red Cliffs was a naval battle if I'm not mistaken.

Cannae involved Hannibal surrounding the Romans which Stannis can't do with Renly, also the Roman forces were mostly infantry unlike Renly's which are all cavalry, the Romans had to alternate command each day, Hannibal took Cannae whilst Stannis hadn't taken Storm's End, Stannis can't ambush Renly as Hannibal could with the Romans, Hannibal had more cavalry then the Romans which Stannis doesn't with Renly, no river would be involved in their battle unlike at Cannae, etc.The coming battle at Meereen bears far more resemblance to Cannae, I think. 

As for Austerlitz, the French were not as outnumbered as Stannis was with Renly. The battlefield was of a different terrain, Napoleon could use deceptive tactics which Stannis would find hard to do, also I don't think battles like these are the best to compare as the technology, tactics etc. are completely different to the books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I read that horses not being able to see exactly what is in front of them may help with a cavalry charge, since they will be less likely to shy away eg. break the charge.

I guess that makes sense? Won't they be susceptible to trips and tumbles?

And Loras is an adequate warrior, in fact one might say good, how he dealt with his rainbow brothers but by his own admission even his brother is a greater warrior. Not to mention they're both green while there are veterans of war like Tarly whom one would assume would have lead the van. Loras is adequate, but there are better options then what Renly decided.

34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think those battles are really comparable to this situation

For sure, but what is the similarity is one side went through great lengths to choose the field while the other didn't seem to care because of the numerical advantage.

Also, while I do think Stannis is gifted militarily ( how he managed to survive without calling a retreat at BW before finally when the reinforcements arrived is impressive, though one may say ludicrous. Then his win over Mance is straight legendary) he clearly is not Hannibal, Zhuge Liang or Napoleon because frankly nobody else in the world is (all 3 in the long run are military losers, that's interesting)

I don't think Stannis was guaranteed a win, but I also don't think Renly was. I don't think any battle is guaranteed but with Renlys compounded mistakes the odds looks worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I guess that makes sense? Won't they be susceptible to trips and tumbles?

And Loras is an adequate warrior, in fact one might say good, how he dealt with his rainbow brothers but by his own admission even his brother is a greater warrior. Not to mention they're both green while there are veterans of war like Tarly whom one would assume would have lead the van. Loras is adequate, but there are better options then what Renly decided.

Loras says his brother is a better warrior, but that he is a better lance. Given that Loras is leading the vanguard to charge I think he was a very good choice. I wouldn't choose Randyl because then my best general is away up front where he cannot advise me at all. I think Renly made the right choice there.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

For sure, but what is the similarity is one side went through great lengths to choose the field while the other didn't seem to care because of the numerical advantage.

Renly doesn't just think he will win due to sheer numbers, he also thinks the quality of his troops compared to Stannis is important.

Quote

All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I'll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me—freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won't survive the first charge of my vanguard.

Obviously Renly's superior numbers give him confidence, but the quality of his troops, especially compared to Stannis, also seems to factor in.

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think Stannis was guaranteed a win, but I also don't think Renly was. I don't think any battle is guaranteed but with Renlys compounded mistakes the odds looks worse.

I really cannot see how Renly would fail to win unless he had a psychotic episode or something similar. The best I can see Stannis doing is managing to retreat via ship with a small fraction of his men, like the Battle of the Blackwater. Unless he manages to kill Renly during the battle, very unlikely as Renly isn't leading from the front, and by the time Renly got near Stannis' army it would already have been most likely smashed by the Vanguard. Stannis put himself in a very bad position and he knew it because the plan was always to kill Renly, never to even do battle. If something went wrong with the shadow conjuration, Stannis most likely would have been finished.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think Renly would ever have to murder Stannis, Stannis falling to one of Renly's troops in battle is not the same as Renly murdering him. I believe the author himself has even said that it would be a stretch to call Renly a kinslayer had this situation occurred.

How did he ignore them? When they are deciding on whether to go fight Stannis or not, Rowan says don't bother, Tarly says he should go, Renly then asks everyone else what they think and they agree with Tarly, then Renly says they will fight. When preparing to fight Stannis, Rowan still says they don't need to bother, Tarly comments that Stannis chose the time etc. to which Renly responds. If Tarly really thought it was a big issue he would have pressed harder. I don't see how Renly ignored his commanders, he listened to them and took their advice on board, the only thing he didn't agree with was the sun thing which I really don't think was that big an issue otherwise Tarly etc. would have been more concerned.

So kinslaying doesn't count if you order someone to kill your family member? That logic is pure hypocrisy. Renly clearly wanted to kill his brother, considering how little effort he took to actually make peace with him. Offering Stannis Storms End was the closest Renly came to showing any effort, granted all it would have cost Stannis was his birthright and throne and I recall Renly sucking on a peach to somehow mock Stannis, during this exchange.

I also remember Renly ignoring Tarly's advice on how the battle should go and instead placing Loras in the front line instead. Loras is a fine enough warrior, but a very rash leader. His attack on Dragon Stone is proof of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He sees it as his duty, but I'm sure he also wants to be king. Who wouldn't?

I tell you who wouldn't. Jon. Just look at Jon and ask yourself whether he wants more power or not. We've even seen it through his eyes how he feels with all those duties, responsibilities, power... and believe it or not the character that's most similar to him is Stannis. We've even been told that by Melisandre but even if she hadn't, it's there to see. Stannis is an older Jon who's been embittered  by frustration. Oh also one that's awkward when with the ladies.

I'd say Stannis may be in constant denial of many things but not wanting the throne, well, at least not for the sake of wanting it for himself, is not one of these.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, sifth said:

So kinslaying doesn't count if you order someone to kill your family member? That logic is pure hypocrisy. Renly clearly wanted to kill his brother, considering how little effort he took to actually make peace with him.

Renly never ordered anyone to kill Stannis, at least not that we know of. I don't think Stannis falling in battle to Renly's troops is the same Renly murdering Stannis. Just as Stannis wouldn't be murdering Renly if Renly was killed by his troops in battle. Kinslaying has a person component which none of these scenarios fulfill. Renly may be fine with Stannis dying in battle, but I can't see how that's the same as him personally killing or ordering Stannis to be killed.

And Renly put more into the negotiations than Stannis, especially when you take into account the imbalance of power between them. Despite being in a position of strength, Renly's offer is the more generous. Renly offers Stannis Storm's End, a great seat that Stannis had no hope of taking (from Renly's point of view) which he always wanted, Stannis only offers Renly position of heir (which he already is) until a son is born to him, so it's not even permanent, and his seat as master of laws. 

Why should Renly give up being king for this? Stannis' counter offer is laughable. Where was Stannis when Robert and Renly were under threat from the Lannisters? Stannis practically abandons them, then shows up out of the blue attacking Renly, gives him perhaps the most pitiful offer in the series, threatens him at a peace conference and then leaves, before killing him.

38 minutes ago, sifth said:

I recall Renly sucking on a peach to somehow mock Stannis, during this exchange.

He offered Stannis the peach, Stannis in his tactless ways drew his sword at the peace conference and threatened Renly with it, because Stannis is not a good diplomat. I don't think Renly, at least initially, intended the peach to be mocking. This is what the author has to say about the peach (I can link to the interview if wanted):

Quote

In the second book Renly gives Stannis a peach. What did you want to tell us with that?

The peach represents... Well... It’s pleasure. It’s… tasting the juices of life. Stannis is a very marshal man concerned with his duty and with that peach Renly says: “Smell the roses”, because Stannis is always concerned with his duty and honor, in what he should be doing and he never really stops to taste the fruit. Renly wants him to taste the fruit but it’s lost.

41 minutes ago, sifth said:

I also remember Renly ignoring Tarly's advice on how the battle should go and instead placing Loras in the front line instead.

I don't think it's fair to say he ignored his advice, he listened to it but decided to do something else. Randyl is his best general, why would he want him in the Van, from where he can offer no advice? The Van's job is to just smash into the enemy, it's all about charging, something that Loras seems to be good at. Tywin chose Gregor to lead his van, a good warrior, not a strategist. Same with Loras.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Loras says his brother is a better warrior, but that he is a better lance. Given that Loras is leading the vanguard to charge I think he was a very good choice. I wouldn't choose Randyl because then my best general is away up front where he cannot advise me at all. I think Renly made the right choice there.

The lance is good at first wave, but after that its all hand to hand. Swords and stuff, things that Garlen is good at. Also if Randyll must lead the rear then another veteran lord would have been the more conventional choice for the front, being not a teenager whos actually seen combat.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly doesn't just think he will win due to sheer numbers, he also thinks the quality of his troops compared to Stannis is important.

Its unwise to underestimate the opponent, onion knights? We know that dudes badass. Renlys men look bigger and stronger, sure, but that alone doesnt write victory.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Obviously Renly's superior numbers give him confidence, but the quality of his troops, especially compared to Stannis, also seems to factor in.

Sure, battles are chaotic by nature and many factors will be at play, like how he left his supply train, along with valuable hostages, distant from the army which Catelyn noted as a red flag. Another factor could be that instead of finalizing battleplans or boosting the morale of his troops at the eve of battle he was getting laid.

 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I tell you who wouldn't. Jon. Just look at Jon and ask yourself whether he wants more power or not. We've even seen it through his eyes how he feels with all those duties, responsibilities, power... and believe it or not the character that's most similar to him is Stannis. We've even been told that by Melisandre but even if she hadn't, it's there to see. Stannis is an older Jon who's been embittered  by frustration. Oh also one that's awkward when with the ladies.

I'd say Stannis may be in constant denial of many things but not wanting the throne, well, at least not for the sake of wanting it for himself, is not one of these.

Of course he would. Dude was straight salivating for Winterfell, who knows how he'll act for KL. But I agree with the similarities, majorly being they crave duty more then a crown, it just so happens that theyre the same thing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The lance is good at first wave, but after that its all hand to hand. Swords and stuff, things that Garlen is good at. Also if Randyll must lead the rear then another veteran lord would have been the more conventional choice for the front, being not a teenager whos actually seen combat.

I can't see why they would all fight hand to hand. If they come off the horse they can still use swords etc. Loras is an able swordfighter and Garlan wasn't there to choose in the first place. The job of the vanguard in the books seems to be charge and smash. So as most likely the best lance there I think Loras was a fine pick. Renly has experienced men commanding other parts of his army, Rowan is leading the left I think and one of the older Estermonts, who I assume would have experience, is also in command. Presumably he wants to keep Tarly and possibly others close by to advise him.

28 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its unwise to underestimate the opponent, onion knights? We know that dudes badass.

Davos is a good naval commander. I don't think we know very much about his skill leading men on land or his personal fighting skill. I like Davos but I can't see how he'd make much of a difference unless it was retreating well with the ships. And Davos is just one man. Stannis himself thinks his army is poor.

Quote

Dragonstone and a few rocks in the narrow sea, there is my kingdom." He descended the steps of his chair to stand before the table, his shadow falling across the mouth of the Blackwater Rush and the painted forest where King's Landing now stood. There he stood, brooding over the realm he sought to claim, so near at hand and yet so far away. "Tonight I am to sup with my lords bannermen, such as they are. Celtigar, Velaryon, Bar Emmon, the whole paltry lot of them. A poor crop, if truth be told, but they are what my brothers have left me. That Lysene pirate Salladhor Saan will be there with the latest tally of what I owe him, and Morosh the Myrman will caution me with talk of tides and autumn gales, while Lord Sunglass mutters piously of the will of the Seven. Celtigar will want to know which storm lords are joining us. Velaryon will threaten to take his levies home unless we strike at once.

 

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Renlys men look bigger and stronger, sure, but that alone doesnt write victory.

But it isn't just that. Renly has more troops, better troops, troops that are less likely to desert him and Stannis is in a bad position with a hostile fortress to his back. 

34 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sure, battles are chaotic by nature and many factors will be at play, like how he left his supply train, along with valuable hostages, distant from the army which Catelyn noted as a red flag.

Renly was in his own lands. I don't think supply really wouldn't have been as much of an issue as Catelyn thought. Also the battle would probably be over quite quickly by which point he could go straight back, if for some reason he ran out of supplies in his own territories. What hostages did Renly have?

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Another factor could be that instead of finalizing battleplans or boosting the morale of his troops at the eve of battle he was getting laid.

But he did finalize the battleplans. We see him talk about them and Lord Rowan says they are "well drawn-up". What's wrong with him getting laid before battle? I'm sure Robert did it as well and it didn't hurt him. I don't think he neglected the battleplans just to spend more quality time with Loras, if that's what you're saying.

40 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course he would. Dude was straight salivating for Winterfell, who knows how he'll act for KL. But I agree with the similarities, majorly being they crave duty more then a crown, it just so happens that theyre the same thing

Jon does want Winterfell. His own thoughts confirm it. Unconsciously he may even be willing to kill his siblings for it. But I think if Jon was ever offered a way to discreetly kill his siblings to get Winterfell, a way they couldn't defend against and couldn't be reliably traced back to him, he wouldn't take it. Stannis on the other hand...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I can't see why they would all fight hand to hand. If they come off the horse they can still use swords etc. Loras is an able swordfighter and Garlan wasn't there to choose in the first place. The job of the vanguard in the books seems to be charge and smash. So as most likely the best lance there I think Loras was a fine pick. Renly has experienced men commanding other parts of his army, Rowan is leading the left I think and one of the older Estermonts, who I assume would have experience, is also in command. Presumably he wants to keep Tarly and possibly others close by to advise him.

For sure, Loras is adequate. But still the appointment was done with favoritism in mind or at least it was a political decision, not a military one. And for all we know the knight of flowers woulda killed it, but theres no way anyone could have known that. He was green while other notable commanders were passed over. If not a lethal mistake its still a factor worth looking into.

20 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Davos is a good naval commander. I don't think we know very much about his skill leading men on land or his personal fighting skill. I like Davos but I can't see how he'd make much of a difference unless it was retreating well with the ships. And Davos is just one man. Stannis himself thinks his army is poor.

 Renlys army appears to be far better, but my point was Renlys still underestimating the competition which is never wise. This too is a factor.

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly was in his own lands. I don't think supply really wouldn't have been as much of an issue as Catelyn thought.

Renlys army was massive. Medieval armies were like locusts to the fields they were staying in, Renlys size was like the spotted lantern fly.

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also the battle would probably be over quite quickly by which point he could go straight back, if for some reason he ran out of supplies in his own territories. What hostages did Renly have?

And if it was not over quickly then Renlys royally fucked, his battle is not only against Stannis but also time, this surely counts as a factor.
His queen and her father.

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

But he did finalize the battleplans. We see him talk about them and Lord Rowan says they are "well drawn-up". What's wrong with him getting laid before battle?

His mind is elsewhere

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm sure Robert did it as well and it didn't hurt him.

Im sure he did too and it would have if Eddard, like usual, didnt bail him out when he was literally knee deep in some instead of fighting.

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think he neglected the battleplans just to spend more quality time with Loras, if that's what you're saying.

Thats what im saying.

Its not a crazy thing to spend your final moments of your previous life with your lover before embarking on your lifes climax, but it clearly is a factor, and with all the other minimal factors in place (not choosing the place, the time, the experienced generals not up front, fighting time, far from the train, unable to protect Marge if she is in jepordy, etc) Renlys win was certainly far from guaranteed

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Jon does want Winterfell. His own thoughts confirm it. Unconsciously he may even be willing to kill his siblings for it. But I think if Jon was ever offered a way to discreetly kill his siblings to get Winterfell, a way they couldn't defend against and couldn't be reliably traced back to him, he wouldn't take it. Stannis on the other hand...

would probably not. (its all sus)
The logistics dont add up. Stannis had to have sex to kill Renly, the man is fucking insane no doubt there but I do not believe he was able to get a boner while contemplating his baby brothers death. This whole scenario is so weird its borderline comical, (like Euron and the dusky woman)
The more oblivious explanation is Stannis belived Renly would die if he sailed to SE and Meli just seduced him when they got there like she tried with Davos and Jon she does not mention any shadowbabies to Snow, so we can assume thats how it went down with Stannis too, probably both times but definitely the first time

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He wonders why his brothers desperately wanted it, that's not saying he doesn't want it 

When asked about why does he wants it, he says that its's not a question about wanting, it's his and his duty. It's his obligation to get it.

It always seemed funny to me because Renly's first instinct was to have Ned as sole regent, whereas Robert hated the throne and was depressed with his life.  Yet Stannis seems to put his wants on his brothers. It's a nice projection.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

When asked about why does he wants it, he says that its's not a question about wanting, it's his and his duty. It's his obligation to get it.

Exactly

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

It always seemed funny to me because Renly's first instinct was to have Ned as sole regent

Everybody thought Eddard was going to be defacto dictator, well everyone but Eddard and Cersei that is

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

whereas Robert hated the throne and was depressed with his life

That because he was a lethargic abusive drunk whom nobody loved, let alone liked. That is of course except Eddard although he tried his best to alienate his newly created Hand at every moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Exactly

Obligation isn't a want tho.

Which is my point, he says he doesn't want it but he has to pursue it. 

That is the ultimate deflection for greediness.

 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Everybody thought Eddard was going to be defacto dictator, well everyone but Eddard and Cersei that is

Regents are de facto dictators tho.

 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That because he was a lethargic abusive drunk whom nobody loved, let alone liked. That is of course except Eddard although he tried his best to alienate his newly created Hand at every moment.

Agree on some and disagree on others but it's not the point. The point is that Stannis is lying and pushing his shit onto his brothers. Robert and Renly are screwed up enough for Stannis to put his repressed desires on them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Obligation isn't a want tho.

Which is my point, he says he doesn't want it but he has to pursue it. 

He doesn't say that, he just changes the conversation.

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

That is the ultimate deflection for greediness.

Of course 

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Regents are de facto dictators tho.

Right, but Ned says Stannis so Renly had to change his plans, which immediately was a coronation because he... (All together now) desperately wanted it.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Agree on some and disagree on others but it's not the point. The point is that Stannis is lying and pushing his shit onto his brothers. Robert and Renly are screwed up enough for Stannis to put his repressed desires on them.

I see what your saying, and I agree Stannis desperately wants the throne (like he's not the rightful king. Targaryen is a thing) but I'm also confident his brothers wanted it too 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...