Jump to content

Is Stannis in Denial about Wanting to be King?


Recommended Posts

52 minutes ago, Mad King Bolton said:

yes, however my point is that how can you say it’s isn’t actually him doing his duty as intended? He says this is my duty, then does the action. If he feels it IS his duty then he’s doing that, if he is just saying that it’s his duty but actually feels it’s just what he wants, we can’t tell the difference. But if he’s to be king, and more than that, Azor ahai, then all his actions ARE his duty and he’s doing them, even when they suck.

Well we can't see in Stannis head but the fact that he constantly uses duty as a justification for everything he does makes me think he may be using to mask his real, less righteous reasons for doing those things because he doesn't want to accept he's flawed and motivated by something else, that he is more similar to his brother's than he thinks. If you treat him as the rightful king then everything he does/says is duty is so, but I think that is a slippery slope because you could use it to justify any atrocity Stannis commits as just him doing his duty.

1 hour ago, Mad King Bolton said:

I’d agree but did he not inform Robert? My understanding was that he had informed Robert or attempted to with Jon Arryn. Arryn died and stannis lost the chance or felt that the message could not get through

From what I recall Jon Arryn and Stannis were going to inform Robert together, but then Jon Arryn died, Stannis felt Robert wouldn't listen to him alone and left because he thought the Lannisters would come after him next. So he was motivated by self preservation. But regardless of the threat to his life or whether Robert would listen or not, it was still Stannis' duty to inform him. And I don't think Stannis would view self-preservation as acceptable grounds for any of his vassals to shirk their duties to him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

From what I recall Jon Arryn and Stannis were going to inform Robert together, but then Jon Arryn died, Stannis felt Robert wouldn't listen to him alone and left because he thought the Lannisters would come after him next. So he was motivated by self preservation. But regardless of the threat to his life or whether Robert would listen or not, it was still Stannis' duty to inform him. And I don't think Stannis would view self-preservation as acceptable grounds for any of his vassals to shirk their duties to him.

If Stannis left out of self preservation he wouldn't have been crying to Cat about Ned being made Hand instead of him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/22/2022 at 2:40 AM, Craving Peaches said:

enly probably hoped she did because it would make things easier, but I don't think there is enough to go on to say that the whole scheme was based on this.

Ok, but the whole scheme is still ludicrous, which is why I wondered why you called Renly pragmatic.

On 9/22/2022 at 2:40 AM, Craving Peaches said:

But that wasn't the entire army, was it? Not everyone was involved in the wager. And not everyone was in the melee Brienne competed in. So I don't think the claim that Brienne beat up and humiliated his entire army was correct.

From the dishwashers to Marge herself.
Seriously, we're talking more then 75% of the knights regarding both the melee and the wager.

On 9/22/2022 at 2:40 AM, Craving Peaches said:

So Catelyn thinks that the men wanting to lead the van are all untried just like Loras

 Cats not doing a rollcall because thats not an interesting read. But if the entire chivalry of stormlands and reach is in Renlys pavilion then there are lords or possibly even knights there whove seen combat.

 

 

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

Does he need a magic sword to inform either Robert or Ned?

That was the past, and he probably couldnt have helped anyway. Robert who belives nobody ever would call Stannis a liar and Lannister would be on to him. He cant inform Ned because Pycelle goes through his mail

 

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

And he doesn't have an obligation, no one is forcing him to the throne,

The law is. In his mind he definitely has an obligation. You may disagree but he does not.

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

The basic law is whatever people excuse can come up with.

Not really. Robb knew he was a rebel, Tyrion knew he was sending agents to free Jaime instead of following the law and being peaceful. 

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

Renly has more swords than Stannis, Robb or Tywin combined. He's handsome and charismatic by all and the commons adore him.

If Renly is going to jump the shark and commit treason, he's clearly the best bet to do it. Going towards Stannis appeases no one but Stannis and still leaves the Reach as a wildcard.

Perhaps he made a right move, but the momentum was certainly lost by acokk, where he sits around getting drunk and watches his best soldiers lose to a girl.

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

They clearly didn't believe they were going nowhere.

We have no idea what they think. Saan thought they were going to go in though 

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

The author seems to be hyping up Stannis, which is fair enough,  his foes only know he's gathering strenght and he's badass. We get to see how pitiful his situation is, by his own words

Like Robb whos situation was more pitiful then the Lannisters made it seem, although hes certainly badass

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

You're assuming the Tyrells are going to follow Renly wherever he may go, my point is that they won't. They have will on their own

No they dont. 0 free will there. Loras follows Renly, Mace follows Loras and Maces mom follows him. Its an entire kingdom of lemmings.

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

Given that the final decision of crowning Robert was only made around the time of the trident.

If I were to guess i'd say that the idea of crowning a dragon became an increasingly bitter drink the more the fighting went on till they acknowledged the Targs had to go entirely.

Where Ned famously wasnt, interesting. But like most SSMs GRRM is clearly holding something back so I dont think we should give too much credence to it, like all other SSMs lol.
Jaime thought of crowning his dad, Robert being the only option is some Renly type thinking

On 9/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, frenin said:

Renly escapes before Ned is seized and he crowns himself after the Whispering Wood.

It is not a week.

Before WW.
10 days? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

From the dishwashers to Marge herself.
Seriously, we're talking more then 75% of the knights regarding both the melee and the wager

Do you have a quote for that? Brienne specifies the knights she felt especially annoyed by. I can't see how anywhere near 75% of knights would be involved given that Randyll Tarly wasn't aware until informed by his own son. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Perhaps he made a right move, but the momentum was certainly lost by acokk, where he sits around getting drunk

Renly does not get drunk. It is explicitly noted by Catelyn that he drinks and eats in moderation. And he wasn't really 'sitting around', he was marching slowly and gathering more support, it was a deliberate plan.

Quote

The king enjoyed his food and drink, that was plain to see, yet he seemed neither glutton nor drunkard.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

watches his best soldiers lose to a girl.

 What's wrong with them loosing to Brienne? She is one of the better fighters in the series. She is very skilled and lucked out in the genetic lottery when it came to fighting advantages, being big and strong.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, but the whole scheme is still ludicrous, which is why I wondered why you called Renly pragmatic.

Well because I think he makes the right call all the time, tries to get rid of Cersei because she's a pain, tries to make sure Ned is unopposed as Regent to reign in Cersei, realises that everything's going to go wrong and gets out of King's Landing, gathers the largest army ever seen in Westeros, takes control of the Kingdom's food supply, loses no men while his enemies get weaker by the day, etc. He was all set up to win, and was also a fairly nice, competent guy, so of course he wasn't allowed to get anywhere near the Throne alive and had to be taken out by never seen before, barely hinted at, impossible to defend from means. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

If Stannis left out of self preservation he wouldn't have been crying to Cat about Ned being made Hand instead of him.

Yes, I forgot about the bit where he moans about it to Cat after Ned just died. That makes him even worse in my view, he didn't even leave to save his own skin, he left to go and sulk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Do you have a quote for that?

Nope. (If you're forcing me to be serious I'll chalk to to 20% of the knights, though 35 may hit the margin too. Obviously if it was most or all of them she'd be dead already.)

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Randyll Tarly wasn't aware until informed by his own son. 

Neither one are knights.

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly does not get drunk. It is explicitly noted by Catelyn that he drinks and eats in moderation. And he wasn't really 'sitting around', he was marching slowly and gathering more support, it was a deliberate plan.

Looked a lot like sitting around.

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What's wrong with them loosing to Brienne? She is one of the better fighters in the series. She is very skilled and lucked out in the genetic lottery when it came to fighting advantages, being big and strong.

They should be out fighting men, not losing to a woman. I am not throwing shade at Brienne, only her peers. 

17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Well because I think he makes the right call all the time

Gotta be one of the most unsuccessful characters of asoiaf. Maybe Little Walder.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

tries to get rid of Cersei because she's a pain,

How? I mean something about Lynannas, but what?

Cersei is a pain, not ugly. Robert knows damn well Cersei is infiltrating the govt but is unable to do anything because he was weak as fuck. Ned believed twincest would reinvigorate his friend which is plausible but a pretty face is just fatuous.

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

pain, tries to make sure Ned is unopposed as Regent to reign in Cersei

If your talking about arresting a mother and her three children then it gets obvious he's not just fatuous but downright cruel.

24 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

realises that everything's going to go wrong and gets out of King's Landing

He actually could have made a difference here

25 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

gathers the largest army ever seen in Westeros, takes control of the Kingdom's food supply,

Mace could have done all this by himself. He is the joke of Westeros, so idk what that makes Renly

26 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

loses no men while his enemies get weaker by the day, etc.

He's eating the land bare. Large armies just hanging out tend to get sick as we see in Danys pov, social distance and such. 

Who's getting weaker? Robbs soldiers and Tywins are becoming veterans, along with the Greyjoy and the random dog walkers of Riverlands. 

He's losing momentum as fast as Mace gave it to him.

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He was all set up to win

Win what?

He may have defeated Tyrion if Stannis never came knocking, may, but then what? Defeat either Tywin or the Young Wolf? What about Doran and Greyjoy? What about Dany?

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

and was also a fairly nice, competent guy, so of course he wasn't allowed to get anywhere near the Throne alive

What? I disagree with all that but if I didn't how would that bar him from the IT?

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

to be taken out by never seen before, barely hinted at

Not the first usurper to get assassinated nor the first brother to have received a hitman 

34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

impossible to defend from means. 

Handful of garlic and a couple of Hail Marys should do the trick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Then relatives died and the door opened.

His relatives died because he abandoned one and killed the other.

7 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It is about having the right to throne, in his opinion. He feels it’s his and that is that.

Obviously he feels entitled to the throne but does he also want it or not?

7 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

He was not expecting to become king.

He must have been expecting something to happen to Robert because he abandoned him, suspecting the Lannisters were trying to kill Jon Arryn, and started gathering swords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They should be out fighting men, not losing to a woman. I am not throwing shade at Brienne, only her peers. 

Why should they be fighting when their enemies are fighting each other for them?

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

If your talking about arresting a mother and her three children then it gets obvious he's not just fatuous but downright cruel.

Cruelty doesn't necessarily affect whether someone is pragmatic or not. From a pragmatic viewpoint it was arguably a good move as it likely meant Cersei wouldn't try anything against them. And the children wouldn't be arrested, they would be removed from Cersei's care, which isn't necessary the same thing.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He actually could have made a difference here

How? Ned, the legal regent, wasn't going to listen to him. Even if Renly hangs around he can give Ned 100 more swords, if Ned doesn't go with his plan it makes no difference as the City Watch still sides with Cersei.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He's eating the land bare. Large armies just hanging out tend to get sick as we see in Danys pov, social distance and such. 

He's in the Reach, the most fertile region with a bountiful food supply as noted by Catelyn when she meets with him, futhermore Renly is moving from place to place so he would be avoiding disease and eating the land bare. The armies in Meereen start to suffer from disease because they stay in one place too long, something Renly isn't doing.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Who's getting weaker? Robbs soldiers and Tywins are becoming veterans, along with the Greyjoy and the random dog walkers of Riverlands. 

They're getting weaker because they're loosing men by the day, not to mention they have a huge disadvantage in numbers to start with.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Win what?

He may have defeated Tyrion if Stannis never came knocking, may, but then what? Defeat either Tywin or the Young Wolf? What about Doran and Greyjoy? What about Dany?

With his biggest and bestest army :P

Seriously though, Tywin and Robb were killing each other, Renly had almost double their men combined in numbers. In the scenario where Renly didn't due, if the Greyjoys still attacked Robb it might benefit him if he's not worked something out with Robb, if he had the Greyjoys might have attacked the weaker and isolated Westerlands instead. Robb can't defend the Riverlands, geography is against him and he doesn't have enough men. Just now Doran is all talk no action. And multiple people say Doran was going to declare for Renly anyway. With the Daenerys issue, well she won't be coming until later, and Renly may choose to send assassins after her again.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

What? I disagree with all that but if I didn't how would that bar him from the IT?

It was supposed to be a joke about how we can't have nice things in the books.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not the first usurper to get assassinated nor the first brother to have received a hitman

First time we have ever seen the shadow assassin being used. Never even heard of it until that point. Barely any foreshadowing. It was completely unexpected for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why should they be fighting when their enemies are fighting each other for them?

Mainly because theyre his subjects. But also because its giving them momentum 

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Cruelty doesn't necessarily affect whether someone is pragmatic or not. From a pragmatic viewpoint it was arguably a good move as it likely meant Cersei wouldn't try anything against them. And the children wouldn't be arrested, they would be removed from Cersei's care, which isn't necessary the same thing.

Its certainly possible to be cruel and pragmatic, like say Tyrion knocking down houses adjacent to the castle walls before BW, but its also possible to be cruel and stupid, as Renly demonstrates. (you agree that his Marge/Robert plan was ludicrous?)
Tywin is the enemy, not Cersei. All Renly doing here is a half measure forcing Lannisters hand. 
Lol, you and your semantics. Yes its the same thing. Taking children from their mother is nothing short of abduction.

27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How? Ned, the legal regent, wasn't going to listen to him. Even if Renly hangs around he can give Ned 100 more swords, if Ned doesn't go with his plan it makes no difference as the City Watch still sides with Cersei.

If Neds the legal regent then Renly has to listen to him, not turn traitor because he enjoys stealing his brothers birthright. 100 fighting men would have been more then enough to chop Janos down

28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He's in the Reach, the most fertile region with a bountiful food supply as noted by Catelyn when she meets with him, futhermore Renly is moving from place to place so he would be avoiding disease and eating the land bare. The armies in Meereen start to suffer from disease because they stay in one place too long, something Renly isn't doing.

Every army is just Covid on wheels

29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They're getting weaker because they're loosing men by the day, not to mention they have a huge disadvantage in numbers to start with.

But numbers dont mean shit. And theyre not getting weaker, the Riverlands are going gungho on Robbs war, the West continuously raises more armies and Tywin and Robb both remain with their elite force

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

With his biggest and bestest army :P

Seriously though, Tywin and Robb were killing each other, Renly had almost double their men combined in numbers. In the scenario where Renly didn't due, if the Greyjoys still attacked Robb it might benefit him if he's not worked something out with Robb, if he had the Greyjoys might have attacked the weaker and isolated Westerlands instead. Robb can't defend the Riverlands, geography is against him and he doesn't have enough men. Just now Doran is all talk no action. And multiple people say Doran was going to declare for Renly anyway. With the Daenerys issue, well she won't be coming until later, and Renly may choose to send assassins after her again.

Very much alive. Mance had 10 times then men as Stannis, Rodrik 5 to Ramsays 1. Numbers are useless because all these armies are just a bunch of peasants anyway. Greyjoy is attacking Robb and breaking off into an independent nation. Robb has done a tremendous job of defending the RL, although I should say Edmure who was more hands on. Doran will act, although Renly thought hed show up because Renly was delusional like that. Because it worked so well last time? 

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It was supposed to be a joke about how we can't have nice things in the books.

We get some nice things. Like the death of Renly

36 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

First time we have ever seen the shadow assassin being used. Never even heard of it until that point. Barely any foreshadowing. It was completely unexpected for me.

We knew Mel had magic and we knew Stannis was going to win, Tyrions not building a chain for his health you know

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Mainly because theyre his subjects.

With this line of thinking he shouldn't attack anyone because they're all his subjects...

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

But also because its giving them momentum

How does it give them momentum? They are steadily losing men while Renly is losing no one. The advantage Renly has in numbers gets better and better.

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

but its also possible to be cruel and stupid, as Renly demonstrates. (you agree that his Marge/Robert plan was ludicrous?)

I don't see how he's cruel and stupid. The Margaery plan wasn't the best but I don't think it's the worst either, at least he was doing something to counter Lannister influence.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, you and your semantics.

I am training at the Citadel to be the next Master of Laws. Semantics are important! ;)

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes its the same thing. Taking children from their mother is nothing short of abduction

Taking children from their mother may be the same thing as abduction, it depends on context. But it (abduction) is not the same as the children being arrested, which is what you said, that Renly was trying to arrest the children or have them arrested. They can't really abduct the children because if Ned went through with the plan everything would be done with full legal authority so I don't think it could be considered abduction in the sense that an abduction is usually illegal.

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Neds the legal regent then Renly has to listen to him

He has a legal obligation to, but Renly is quite open about how he thinks what's legal isn't always the best option. And he left KL so he wouldn't die.

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

not turn traitor because he enjoys stealing his brothers birthright

He turned traitor because he didn't like Joffrey and Cersei and thought he'd make a good king. Stannis' birthright wasn't even on his mind when he crowned himself because he didn't know about the incest. And Stannis has only himself to blame for not bringing it to Renly's attention sooner.

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Every army is just Covid on wheels

Not really, disease was probably always there in the camps, but the only army we see seriously suffer from disease is the one in Meereen because they stay in one place too long and are badly led.

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But numbers dont mean shit.

Well they mean something to the characters in the story who are all concerned because their enemy has more men than they do.

57 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And theyre not getting weaker, the Riverlands are going gungho on Robbs war, the West continuously raises more armies and Tywin and Robb both remain with their elite force

They are getting weaker because they are continuously losing men. The Riverlands were wrecked by Tywin, killing not just a lot of their armies but also killing men they could have called up to replace them, the rest of the surviving armies are with Robb, losing more men every time they clash with the Lannisters. As for Tywin's forces, it's mentioned that they can't just raise more and more armies, with Stafford's army they were scraping the bottom of the barrel. Westerlands can raise ~50,000 max according to the wiki. And Tywin suffers lots of casualties. Robb suffers fewer but he also has fewer men to start with. The more they fight each other, the more their forces are reduced. Tywin could perhaps hire more sellswords but those would take time to arrive and may not be available depending on the situation in Essos, and with the other naval powers in the kingdom. The survivors would have more experience but they would be fighting on multiple fronts and be facing vastly superior numbers.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Mance had 10 times then men as Stannis, Rodrik 5 to Ramsays 1.

I don't think the Wildling situation is really comparable, Stannis had a very large element of surprise which wouldn't always be possible, the Wildlings were not as disciplined as Westerosi forces would be, there were lots of non-combatants amongst the Wildlings etc. Roderick's army was like Stafford's army, all fresh peasant levies with no training.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Greyjoy is attacking Robb and breaking off into an independent nation.

My interpretation of the events is that Balon attacked the North because it was the weaker target, I think in a scenario where Renly is alive and allied with Robb Balon may well attack the Westerlands which now look the weaker target and isolated (as well as having better booty). But if Renly and Robb don't have an agreement Balon attacking Robb helps Renly. He could let Robb and Balon fight it out amongst themselves like he did with Robb and the Lannisters, then descend on the weakened survivor.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

although I should say Edmure who was more hands on.

You agree it was Robb's fault for not telling Edmure the plan, right? I hate it when poor Edmure is unfairly slandered :angry:

But I don't think the defence of the Riverlands would have been sustainable long term, Robb had too few men and the geography of the region makes it hard to defend, not to mention the lack of food would start to become an issue.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Doran will act, although Renly thought hed show up because Renly was delusional like that.

Not just Renly thought that, Tyrion and Marq Piper did so to.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because it worked so well last time? 

Robert called off the assassins and they didn't hire the good ones because Petyr though it was too expensive, Renly clearly thought Daenerys and Viserys were a threat and if he still thought that way when he was king he wouldn't fool around, he'd likely try to hire the Faceless men if possible.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

We get some nice things. Like the death of Renly

For me the death of Renly was the worst part of the entire series. I had to stop reading and take some time to do comforting things like pretending he was still alive or would come back :(

Hopefully I will be rewarded with the death of Stannis.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

we knew Stannis was going to win

I didn't get that sense at all, I thought Stannis was going to lose until he committed fratricide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

With this line of thinking he shouldn't attack anyone because they're all his subjects...

He should lay down the law before his lords tare the kingdom apart, which is the entire job of a king

50 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

How does it give them momentum? They are steadily losing men while Renly is losing no one. The advantage Renly has in numbers gets better and better.

Only in numbers but in experience and morale its definitely going north, and presumably a bit west (but probably not lol). Robb inspires confidence, his men charge into greater numbers and come out victorious, Renly inspires games like jousting and rape the goofy looking girl

52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't see how he's cruel and stupid. The Margaery plan wasn't the best but I don't think it's the worst either, at least he was doing something to counter Lannister influence.

It unnecessarily stirred the pot, and it had no chance of success any way you look at it. Very much look at me vibes like old maester said (i know you find flaw in his reasoning, for whatever reason, but GRRM gave us this backstory to better understand why he is how he is)

55 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I am training at the Citadel to be the next Master of Laws. Semantics are important! ;)

Only when masking the egregious

56 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Taking children from their mother may be the same thing as abduction, it depends on context. But it (abduction) is not the same as the children being arrested, which is what you said, that Renly was trying to arrest the children or have them arrested. They can't really abduct the children because if Ned went through with the plan everything would be done with full legal authority so I don't think it could be considered abduction in the sense that an abduction is usually illegal.

I concede that like, in some situations the govt taking children from their parents should not be called abduction, however I would only say thats the case when direct danger to the children is probable. Under any other circumstance Ill say its abduction, kidnapping, human trading and any other colorful words thatll crop in my mind. Slave trading for instance, the reasoning of the government does not get to dispute the dictionary. The children will be forcefully taken from their mother and confided to the constant supervision of that taker, to be used as will. It is what it is.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

He turned traitor because he didn't like Joffrey and Cersei and thought he'd make a good king. Stannis' birthright wasn't even on his mind when he crowned himself because he didn't know about the incest. And Stannis has only himself to blame for not bringing it to Renly's attention sooner.

Renly cant be king with a living Stannis, that doesnt make sense.

Quote

"As you say," said Robb, troubled. "Yet if neither one is king, still, how could it be Lord Renly? He's Robert's younger brother. Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Lord Stannis."

Quote

Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same of Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother's banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are.

Stannis had to be in his mind, not even Renly was that stupid. Its honestly why he crowned himself so fast, anybody with a vague understanding of dragonstone history knows Stannis fled to launch a rebellion so Renly had to declare himself king before the stormlords declared for Stannis.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think the Wildling situation is really comparable, Stannis had a very large element of surprise which wouldn't always be possible, the Wildlings were not as disciplined as Westerosi forces would be, there were lots of non-combatants amongst the Wildlings etc. Roderick's army was like Stafford's army, all fresh peasant levies with no training.

Kinda surprised. He did attack a war camp after all, Mance thought it was a last ditch from Eastwatch but still not some veteran knights but still, there was 10 times the men. Its insane, and innacurate because not all were men. No not spearwives (although...) but giants riding on fucking mammoths. 
Not just Roderick or Stafford but every single soldier in the story (that doesnt drape himself in steel and fur when visiting the 90 degreee brothal like some kinda Jorah) is a fresh peasant leavy. (some are fresher then others, sure) Oh, except the Essosi, theyre all slaves. 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

My interpretation of the events is that Balon attacked the North because it was the weaker target

Misplaced vengeance for his sons I think. Probably misplaced because it was easy to see the murderer of his sons and the abductor as the same

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think in a scenario where Renly is alive and allied with Robb Balon may well attack the Westerlands which now look the weaker target and isolated (as well as having better booty). But if Renly and Robb don't have an agreement Balon attacking Robb helps Renly. He could let Robb and Balon fight it out amongst themselves like he did with Robb and the Lannisters, then descend on the weakened survivor.

Alright, the kings murdered. Princes flayed. Princess raped. Armies blown into dust. Lots of time has passed, the StarkTully faction is not the same thing it was, one might say it was defeated. Yet still, the lords rise for Rickon, still the Vale knights stir at Harrys wedding. The lords in their heart remain loyal, the separated soldiers of the North remembers and, you know, winter is coming. Does the North look weak?
Or the king is dead, after launching an unpopular war that caused many victims and now prepare to descend simultaneously on two of the greatest cities in the world, Oldtown and Meereen. Does Greyjoy look weak?

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

You agree it was Robb's fault for not telling Edmure the plan, right? I hate it when poor Edmure is unfairly slandered :angry:

But I don't think the defence of the Riverlands would have been sustainable long term, Robb had too few men and the geography of the region makes it hard to defend, not to mention the lack of food would start to become an issue.

Robbs fault? Obviously not. Wouldn't blame Edmure either, although its understandable why someone politically had to get chewed out. 

Robbs few men were undefeated and Edmures policy of kicking men off his land left them with enough food. Brynden had mad food for instance. 
Numbers are for arithmetic, as I started this thread off implying by stating the three biggest one sided cocky generals battle.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Not just Renly thought that, Tyrion and Marq Piper did so to.

Tyrion did not, he hoped theyd fight Stannis' men and wasnt given a no but the real outcome he wanted was to force an abduction of Cerseis child. For some reason he thought thatd calm her down, maybe it did?

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Robert called off the assassins and they didn't hire the good ones because Petyr though it was too expensive, Renly clearly thought Daenerys and Viserys were a threat and if he still thought that way when he was king he wouldn't fool around, he'd likely try to hire the Faceless men if possible.

Probably not possible. It perhaps cost Euron a dragons egg for Balon.
(you know he didnt really call it off, right? Like, he gave the order a half a world away, how could it be reversed?)

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

For me the death of Renly was the worst part of the entire series.

Strange, a minor character in a series of heart wrenching books, but ok.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I had to stop reading and take some time to do comforting things like pretending he was still alive or would come back :(

He did.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Hopefully I will be rewarded with the death of Stannis.

I dont understand how the death of a fictional character is a reward, but you will be.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I didn't get that sense at all, I thought Stannis was going to lose until he committed fratricide.

Yea you said that, but we knew Stannis was the sea guy so hence the point of the chain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Only in numbers but in experience and morale its definitely going north, and presumably a bit west (but probably not lol).

Morale is good but it reaches a point where even if you have the best morale the numbers can just be too much. Do you know the game EU4?

8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Renly inspires games like jousting and rape the goofy looking girl

The jousting/melee was deliberate to choose the best Kingsguard. I don't think you can blame Renly for the wager.

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It unnecessarily stirred the pot, and it had no chance of success any way you look at it.

It wasn't unnecessary from Renly's point of view. He thought Cersei was going to kill him so he needed to get rid of her. The chances of success weren't great but I don't think they were zero. Cersei herself fears getting set aside.

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I concede that like, in some situations the govt taking children from their parents should not be called abduction, however I would only say thats the case when direct danger to the children is probable. Under any other circumstance Ill say its abduction, kidnapping, human trading and any other colorful words thatll crop in my mind. Slave trading for instance, the reasoning of the government does not get to dispute the dictionary. The children will be forcefully taken from their mother and confided to the constant supervision of that taker, to be used as will. It is what it is.

Legally, in terms of Westeros law, I would say that had Ned gone through with Renly's plan it would have been impossible for the children to be abducted in terms of being taken illegally, because Ned as regent would have had the law backing his actions. Of course it isn't a great action in terms of morality, but there are many worse examples in the series. I don't think Renly wanted any harm to befall the children (with the possible exception of Joffrey), the plan is just to seperate them from Cersei so Cersei won't try to harm Ned, Renly and co. And basically the whole thing was going to be done so that Ned could carry out his lawful role as Regent.

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Renly cant be king with a living Stannis, that doesnt make sense.

Legitimacy does not figure in to Renly's reasoning for why he should be king. At the time when he decided to crown himself, Stannis had been completely silent for almost a year, Renly had no way to discern his intentions. Renly was not aware of the incest. For all he knew, Stannis would support Joffrey. So whether he crowned himself or backed Stannis, from his point of view he would be skipping or help someone to skip the line of succession. Even if he randomly decided to back Stannis for despite not knowing about the incest, it would still require jumping over those who Renly perceived to be the 'rightful' rulers, Robert's own children. Either way he wouldn't be following what was the lawful line of succession from his point of view. 

The argument could also be made that Renly could be king with a living Stannis because Stannis  is disqualified on religious grounds, either because he is not of the Faith of the Seven, or because he has failed in the obligation of the king to defend the Faith.

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis had to be in his mind, not even Renly was that stupid. Its honestly why he crowned himself so fast, anybody with a vague understanding of dragonstone history knows Stannis fled to launch a rebellion so Renly had to declare himself king before the stormlords declared for Stannis.

I don't think he didn't think of Stannis at all, just that he would have no way of deducing that Stannis was going to claim the Crown because Stannis was silent for nine months. He was likely aware of Stannis preparations as others were, but though that may indicate his intention to go to war, it doesn't necessarily mean that Stannis was going to claim the crown. He may have been gathering swords because he sensed war was coming and wanted to be prepared, for example.

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Kinda surprised. He did attack a war camp after all, Mance thought it was a last ditch from Eastwatch but still not some veteran knights but still, there was 10 times the men. Its insane, and innacurate because not all were men. No not spearwives (although...) but giants riding on fucking mammoths. 

I don't think there was ten times the fighting men (and women). There seemed to be a large contingent of children, people who weren't warriors, farm animals for example. Mance wasn't just bringing an army to attack the wall, he had all the Free Folk who wanted to go south and escape the Others. They weren't all warriors.

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Misplaced vengeance for his sons I think. Probably misplaced because it was easy to see the murderer of his sons and the abductor as the same

Maybe, but I also think the North being weaker was a factor. I mean the Westerlands surely has greater plunder and stuff. And when his sons were killed it was a joint operation by the whole rest of Westeros, not just the North (I don't think).

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

still the Vale knights stir at Harrys wedding

Well if Renly has taken KL in this hypothetical scenario (I think that would be very likely had he lived) then Sansa might not be near the vale in the first place. Petyr might still try something but he seems to be pro-Renly and they got on quite well.

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The lords in their heart remain loyal, the separated soldiers of the North remembers and, you know, winter is coming. Does the North look weak?

If this is a scenario where the North continued to batter the Lannisters until their weakened forces were driven out of the Riverlands by Renly, with Winter coming on, a stunted harvest due to the war, no chance of aid from the South, Wildling army at their doorstep which they have to deal with, after having lost a great deal of fighting men, then yes I would say the North looks weak. The North remembers but we've not seen much to actually back those words up. Same with Doran. All talk no show. Hopefully we'll see some action next book.

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tyrion did not,

I think he did, or at least he was aware of the possibility. The quote is from Varys.

Quote

"The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him."

So I definitely think more than just Renly thought Doran would join him. Varys says Tyrion wants to dissuade him, so Tyrion must think the possibility is great enough to bother about.

47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

For some reason he thought thatd calm her down, maybe it did?

Could Cersei be jealous of Myrcella in some way?

48 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Probably not possible. It perhaps cost Euron a dragons egg for Balon.
(you know he didnt really call it off, right? Like, he gave the order a half a world away, how could it be reversed?)

The point I was trying to make is that they didn't put full effort in, they didn't hire the best of the best; if Renly was king and still saw Daenerys as a threat I think he would make sure that the most effective measures were taken. But the price may have been too high, I don't know.

50 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He did.

That bit was cool, but I meant really come back.

50 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont understand how the death of a fictional character is a reward, but you will be.

It was meant to be a joke but on a thematic level I don't think Stannis' murder of Renly can go unpunished.

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis was the sea guy

Yes but until he killed Renly he had pathetic small low quality army. Boats are well and good but he needed land army to win the Throne. Davos is the sea guy, Stannis should have put him in charge of Navy at Blackwater.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/23/2022 at 2:31 PM, Hugorfonics said:

That was the past, and he probably couldnt have helped anyway. Robert who belives nobody ever would call Stannis a liar and Lannister would be on to him. He cant inform Ned because Pycelle goes through his mail

 

  1. Funny how duty and obligations are optional depending on how he feels that day.
  2. There's little reason to believe Robert wouldn't have believe him.
  3. He could have told Robert privately.
  4. He could have informed Ned easily, he could have easily outraced Robert to Winterfell and tell Ned and confront the Lannisters in Ned's domains or he could have sent Davos to tell him the truth and there is little Pycelle can do about that.

 

Quote

The law is. In his mind he definitely has an obligation. You may disagree but he does not.

Sense of entitlement. Similar symptoms but different roots.

 

 

Quote

Not really. Robb knew he was a rebel, Tyrion knew he was sending agents to free Jaime instead of following the law and being peaceful. 

The dust had not been settled, Robert was once a rebel and a traitor, so was Jaeharys.

 

 

Quote

Perhaps he made a right move, but the momentum was certainly lost by acokk, where he sits around getting drunk and watches his best soldiers lose to a girl.

He keeps the largest army the land had ever seen well fed, well supplied and in high spirits while he besieges King's Landing from afar and watches his enemies tear each other to pieces making future subjugation easier.

 

 

Quote

We have no idea what they think. Saan thought they were going to go in though 

Oh we do.

 

Quote

No, Cressen thought, a man like that would give no false hope, nor soften a hard truth. “Ser Davos, truth can be a bitter draught, even for a man like Lord Stannis. He thinks only of returning to King’s Landing in the fullness of his power, to tear down his enemies and claim what is rightfully his. Yet now …” “If he takes this meagre host to King’s Landing, it will be only to die. He does not have the numbers. I told him as much, but you know his pride.” Davos held up his gloved hand. “My fingers will grow back before that man bends to sense.” The old man sighed. “You have done all you could. Now I must add my voice to yours.” Wearily, he resumed his climb.

 

 

Quote

“How many swords will the Lord of Light put into my hand?” Stannis demanded again. “All you need,” his wife promised. “The swords of Storm’s End and Highgarden for a start, and all their lords bannermen.” “Davos would tell you different,” Stannis said. “Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once loved Robert … and as they have never loved me.” “Yes,” she answered, “but if Renly should die …”

 

Quote

"And when shall that be, Lord Stannis? King's Landing is close to your Dragonstone, but I find you here instead."
"You are frank, Lady Stark. Very well, I'll answer you frankly. To take the city, I need the power of these southron lords I see across the field. My brother has them. I must needs take them from him."
"Men give their allegiance where they will, my lord. These lords swore fealty to Robert and House Baratheon. If you and your brother were to put aside your quarrel—"

 

There's also some basic maths like Stannis had some 5k whereas the Crownlands commands some 10k levies, the City Watch alone are 2k people. It's kinda impossible to do. And even if by some trickery he does seize King's Landing, he wills imply not hold it,

 

Stannis says as much.

 

Quote

Like Robb whos situation was more pitiful then the Lannisters made it seem, although hes certainly badass

Not really, the Lannisters knew and stated that Robb's situation was pitiful by ASOS. 

 

Quote

No they dont. 0 free will there. Loras follows Renly, Mace follows Loras and Maces mom follows him. Its an entire kingdom of lemmings.

If so, Renly wouldn't need to marry Margaery but we're told that Mace wanted a grandson on the throne.

 

 

Quote

Where Ned famously wasnt, interesting. But like most SSMs GRRM is clearly holding something back so I dont think we should give too much credence to it, like all other SSMs lol.
Jaime thought of crowning his dad, Robert being the only option is some Renly type thinking

Ned was on the Trident..

Jaime thinks a lot of dumb shit, case in point while he was jerking himself thinking how awesome it'd be crowning a Targling and watch Robert's and Ned's faces, his father was sacking the city in Robert's name.

 

 

Quote

Before WW.
10 days? 

After Whispering Woods and Renly leaves the city before Ned is arrested, Robb spends moths calling his banners and Ned was still alive.

 

Quote

It unnecessarily stirred the pot, and it had no chance of success any way you look at it. Very much look at me vibes like old maester said (i know you find flaw in his reasoning, for whatever reason, but GRRM gave us this backstory to better understand why he is how he is)

Pycelle and Cersei were convinced that Robert could set aside Cersei the moment he became really fed up with her tho.

 

About the numbers issue, gotta quote Doran.

 

Quote

"Only if we lost."
"If? The word is when. [...] Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. 

 

Edited by frenin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...