Tywin is a Craven

[Daeron the Daring]

46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue I had is that Tywin says it is less bloody than a conventional battle, but when you look at the body count they are actually the same really. Thousands of Stark men died at the Red Wedding. It may as well have been a battle. Yes the war could have dragged on. Or it might not have. If it got to the point after Joffrey died Robb might have wanted to make peace. He had to deal with the Ironborn and stuff. I don't think the ends really justify the means with the Red Wedding. Yes it ends the war with the North, but it doesn't do so without massive casualties, and it doesn't end the war as a whole. The Ironborn and Stannis are still out there. Also, the impact of breaking guest right has serious consequences. People are no longer certain that they will be assured safe conduct. The affects on diplomacy and negotiation won't be good. Fundamental trust is gone.

I would argue that it was less bloody than a basic battle. There isn't much to say here, the death toll could be around 3000 (but definitely between 2000-4000), and I'm rather generous with the number.

If we look at IRL battles with armies similar in size to what the Stark and Lannister forces have (in a single army, so let't make both armies range between 18000-22000), we would have a battle that could easily have had a death toll of 6-8000. That number would be a moderate one, and if, let's say, the opposing sides fight a decisive battle, a much bigger one is plausible too. The numbers really aren't the same. And the outcomes of the two incidents aren't the same. If Robb was to lose a battle, he would've retreated and he himself would've escaped. It's rather foolish to say someone is craven for not betting on a three-legged dog in a race. Tywin probably looked at the odds, and decided upon the better choice, with all the bad shit included in both packages. 

Peace was never an option tho, especially if Robb was cornered from the Ironborn and the Lannisters both.

And I'm not arguing over the impact of breaking the guest right, I'm very much aware of that, that's not the point of the discussion.

46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I disagree...

I wonder why.

46 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

With regards to the Red Wedding, he isn't really being brave by doing it because he isn't doing so openly, he hides it and makes other people take the fall. It's easy to do all those things when you know someone else will take the blame, like with the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys, he just gets his troops to do it for him. Maegor would have done it himself. I can't see how it's brave.

Hm, yes, it's rather strange that Tywin didn't invite Robb for the wedding of anyone and butchered him, he himself. I can once again only wonder why. I guess Tywin should've singlehandedly killed all Reynes and Tarbecks, should've singlehandedly raped everybody and looted the whole of King's Landing.

I mean, the guy wasn't even brave enough to face a sickly Elia Martell and her infant son and daughter. The guy is afraid of babies, what a craven.

But the blame is still his. Oberyn ultimately went to KL for Tywin, not Ser Gregor Clegane. And everybody knows in who's behalf Walder Frey was acting.

[Craving Peaches]

24 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Peace was never an option tho, especially if Robb was cornered from the Ironborn and the Lannisters both.

I think it may have been possible, Robb's main issue is with Joffrey because he killed his father, with Joffrey dead, Jaime lost as a hostage, the Lannisters having Sansa and the Ironborn problem especially, Robb may have been willing to make peace so he could focus all his efforts on the Ironborn and not have to fight multiple opponents at once.

27 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And I'm not arguing over the impact of breaking the guest right, I'm very much aware of that, that's not the point of the discussion.

Why is it not a part of the discussion? It's a factor Tywin would have to consider, it's a big part of why everyone finds the Red Wedding so reprehensible.

29 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Hm, yes, it's rather strange that Tywin didn't invite Robb for the wedding of anyone and butchered him, he himself. I can once again only wonder why. I guess Tywin should've singlehandedly killed all Reynes and Tarbecks, should've singlehandedly raped everybody and looted the whole of King's Landing.

I mean, the guy wasn't even brave enough to face a sickly Elia Martell and her infant son and daughter. The guy is afraid of babies, what a craven.

That was not the point I was making, the point I made was that Tywin couldn't be considered brave for doing those things because each time he uses a proxy and so never risks himself or his reputation directly.

My point was that Tywin could not be considered brave for going against morality or whatever, because he didn't do it openly, he got others to do it for him. You compared him to Maegor. I don't think the comparison works because I don't believe he was 'brave' like you said Maegor was. He didn't do those things himself and owe up to doing them as I think Maegor would have done. Each time Tywin 'bravely' goes against morality he always has a catspaw so he never faces any direct consequences himself and has plausible deniability, as though he fears his involvement becoming known (and the damage it would do to his reputation). How is that brave?

[Craving Peaches]

45 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be fair, the Freys are getting most of the blame.

That's true but it's not just the Red Wedding, when you factor in his other decisions such as the murder of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys, and his complete failure in raising his children to carry on the legacy I think in the end he's still responsible.

[Daeron the Daring]

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think it may have been possible, Robb's main issue is with Joffrey because he killed his father, with Joffrey dead, Jaime lost as a hostage, the Lannisters having Sansa and the Ironborn problem especially, Robb may have been willing to make peace so he could focus all his efforts on the Ironborn and not have to fight multiple opponents at once.

I'm not gonna argue over that, because it's irrelevant and I already told what I think. Plus, I don't care about what ifs. Things happen in a certain way for reasons.

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why is it not a part of the discussion? It's a factor Tywin would have to consider, it's a big part of why everyone finds the Red Wedding so reprehensible.

You are trying to illuminate or enlighten me about the impact of the Red Wedding. I am very much aware of that, I am in no no need of that. That's why it's irrelevant. It's a thing we agree on.

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That was not the point I was making, the point I made was that Tywin couldn't be considered brave for doing those things because each time he uses a proxy and so never risks himself or his reputation directly.

Proxy is a privilege given to every single person who's part of the/a feudal upper class against basic commoners/working class. If you're born inside nobility, you already abused you privilege of having proxies tackle the shit you would 'normally' take. Hence, you don't have to murder yourself anyone if you want someone dead. 99% of the time.

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

My point was that Tywin could not be considered brave for going against morality or whatever, because he didn't do it openly, he got others to do it for him.

So, I guess Joffrey isn't openly at fault for beheading Ned Stark, since Ilyn Payne was doing it for him? You realise what you say is ridiculous? Tywin Lannister has a reputation built up around the things he had people done for him. His reputation is built around the fact that everybody knows how he dealt with the Reynes, how he sacked KL (not telling on who's behalf he showed up), how he had Rhaenys and Aegon murdered, and how he had the Freys do a Red Wedding on Robb Stark. 

And the reason he gets away with facing what he should rightfully face for his actions is because:

• People are afraid of him.
• There isn't anybody left who cares about it.
• He is lucky here and there. 

The luck streak ended when he was crossing Varys' path, who's a bigger fish.

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Each time Tywin 'bravely' goes against morality he always has a catspaw so he never faces any direct consequences himself and has plausible deniability, as though he fears his involvement becoming known (and the damage it would do to his reputation). How is that brave?

I never got the impression that he was afraid of the consequences of his actions. In given time, everybody would've known or had it figured that it was him the Freys and Boltons were doing the thingy for. It's just that people either wouldn't care, or are afraid to care enough to oppose him. 

And being brave for something or in a certain situation doesn't make you brave, nor is it a craven thing to be afraid of something. (And something actually huge.) This isn't a tabletop roleplay-game where you select the attributes of your character, and it is decided and written in stone that you're either a craven or brave, greedy or generous, etc. 

20 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Why is it not a part of the discussion?

Why aren't certain parts of my answer part of the discussion? Am I right (and you agree with that) or you're being dismissive/selective? Tell me you disagree and not willing to go into details. That's a totally okay thing.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Plus, I don't care about what ifs. Things happen in a certain way for reasons

But then you can't say for certain that Robb wouldn't bend the knee. He was never given the opportunity to bend the knee after Joffrey, the main person he had issue with, died, because he'd already been killed at the Red Wedding. So any option is a 'what if'.

9 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Proxy is a privilege given to every single person who's part of the/a feudal upper class against basic commoners/working class. If you're born inside nobility, you already abused you privilege of having proxies tackle the shit you would 'normally' take. Hence, you don't have to murder yourself anyone if you want someone dead. 99% of the time.

I agree, but what does this have to do with my point that using a proxy isn't as brave as carrying out the act yourself?

10 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

So, I guess Joffrey isn't openly at fault for beheading Ned Stark, since Ilyn Payne was doing it for him? You realise what you say is ridiculous?

That situation is not comparable because Joffrey ordered Illyn to kill Ned openly and in public. Does Tywin publicly order the murder of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys? Does he publicly order Gregor Clegane to burn the Riverlands? The only time which he openly did any of those things was when he exterminated the Reynes and Tarbecks. This is the main act his reputation is built on. People know with certainty that he did it. With the other acts, people only suspect, there is no direct proof that leads back to him, he has plausible deniability with other acts apart from this one.

14 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Freys do a Red Wedding on Robb Stark

The whole reason he has the Freys do it is so he would avoid taking the blame.

Quote

"So Lord Walder slew him under his own roof, at his own table?" Tyrion made a fist. "What of Lady Catelyn?"

"Slain as well, I'd say. A pair of wolfskins. Frey had intended to keep her captive, but perhaps something went awry."

"So much for guest right."

"The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine."

Now as Tyrion did, one can deduce that Frey did not act without protection, but yet again Tywin has plausible deniability, there is nothing to directly link him to the event, even if people suspect they have no proof. Because Tywin doesn't want the stain on his house's reputation. He cares about what other people think. He fears being seen like Tytos.

26 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

And being brave for something or in a certain situation doesn't make you brave, nor is it a craven thing to be afraid of something. (And something actually huge.) This isn't a tabletop roleplay-game where you select the attributes of your character, and it is decided and written in stone that you're either a craven or brave, greedy or generous, etc. 

Being brave is about facing your fears. Tywin avoids having to face his fears, potentially damaging the reputation of his house, because he gets someone else to carry out the unsavoury act for him. So I can't see how he's brave. "The only time we can be brave is when we're afraid" and all that. Tywin is never in a situation where he's afraid because someone else does the dirty work for him.

[Daeron the Daring]

11 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Tywin is never in a situation where he's afraid

Well, I guess we have our answer.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Well, I guess we have our answer.

Indeed, facing one's fears is a key part of being brave. As Tywin makes sure he is never in a situation when he would have to fear (about the ruin of his house), due to all of the notorious acts bar one being committed with a catspaw, he cannot be considered to be brave.