Jump to content

The Mud Mouse: building on the potential symbolism of Ser Shadrich as Howland Reed.


Sandy Clegg
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi all. More "building on the symbolism " stuff from your friendly neighbourhood Yellow Hound.

First, a small preamble.

Regardless of one’s personal taste for ‘hidden identity’ theories, this is fertile storytelling ground for GRRM. Yes, he likes to subvert expectations in his writing, which is why many lovers of ASOIAF hate secret identities. Totally understandable. I think GRRM likes having his cake and eating it, though. He subverts conventions in order to earn his dramatic twists and reveals. For all we know, he could very well reveal that Hot Pie is Rhaegar only to then have him killed by a falling branch in the next paragraph. Suffice it to say, there are ‘cake lovers’ in the ASOIAF community and there are ‘cake deniers’. I see no reason why a good theory cannot appease both, so I try to keep an open mind.

With all that being said, after I came across the Howland = Ser Shadrich theory I did my best to see what support there was for it, by looking at symbolism and visual clues within the text, trying my best to avoid spitballing and going off on wild goose chases as I did so. (That was hard). And I was surprised at how some key connections had been overlooked by previous (admittedly marvellous) threads/essays. @sweetsunray @Blue-Eyed Wolf @M_Tootles and @bemused were involved in previous threads and deserve some mention here. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

Anyway, pull on your galoshes. This is going to get muddy …

 

The essays and threads I read have already laid the groundwork in comparing the physical attributes of HR and Ser Shadrich, so I won’t repeat these. They are all worth a read, and linked at the bottom. A lot of the theorising  covers a lot ground, but here I am only concerned with Shadrich himself.

In https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/ we have these similarities (my summary):

  • their height (short)
  • their build (slim)
  • their age
  • some shared characteristics (bravery, curiosity, intelligence)
  • Shadrich’s shield design: wavy brown and blue lines, being reminiscent of marshlands. Also, the white mouse with red eyes is a callback to the Knight of the Laughing Tree’s weirwood tree sigil.

Note: I’m not going to comment on hair colour and eye colour as clues to identity as we know too little of Howland’s physical description. Also, hair dye is a thing in Westeros so I feel as though this at least is a moot point (and not an argument I care to get embroiled in) :) 

If you are aware of this theory, you know the drill. In terms of appearance and character, we can see that there is nothing to contradict the theory, and indeed there are many similarities. In any case, if HR is ‘in character’ as Ser Shadrich, then we can expect some leeway with the way his personality is portrayed. In this post, therefore, I intend to draw more symbolic parallels. Deliberate breadcrumbs left by GRRM.

First, let’s look at some of the key features of crannogmen, some of which will feature heavily in looking for symbolic clues.

Quote

“He tried to recall all he had been taught of the crannogmen, who dwelt amongst the bogs of the Neck and seldom left their wetlands. They were a poor folk, fishers and frog-hunters who lived in houses of thatch and woven reeds on floating islands hidden in the deeps of the swamp. It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle. And yet Howland Reed had been one of Father's staunchest companions during the war for King Robert's crown, before Bran was born.”

- ACOK, Bran II

Quote

"Who are they?" Rickon asked.

"Mudmen," answered Little Walder disdainfully. "They're thieves and cravens, and they have green teeth from eating frogs.”  - ACOK, Bran III

"Frogeaters don't smell like men," Frey insisted. "They have a boggy stink, like frogs and trees and scummy water. Moss grows under their arms in place of hair, and they can live with nothing to eat but mud and breathe swamp water.”

- ACOK, Theon IV

So, the crannogmen are associated with:

  • mud
  • frogs
  • marshes/bogs
  • cowardice (clearly this is not how GRRM sees them, but nevertheless this is a key part of their symbolism as viewed by Westerosi society)

When we meet Ser Shadrich, he is described by Brienne:

Quote

“Ser Shadrich was a wiry, fox-faced man with a sharp nose and a shock of orange hair, mounted on a rangy chestnut courser. Though he could not have been more than five foot two, he had a cocksure manner.”

- AFFC, Brienne I

Significantly, we can also see foxes on the heraldry and shields of Florent men who, like Shadrich, fought for Stannis at the battle of Blackwater. 

From a Wiki of ice and Fire: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Florent

(We first learn this from Davos’ POV chapter):

Quote

"It is customary to grant a king the style Your Grace," announced Lord Florent. A red gold fox poked its shining snout out from his breastplate through a circle of lapis lazuli flowers.” - ACOK, Davos II

So, a fox, surrounded by flowers, and a Battle of Blackwater connection:- Ser Shadrich titles himself the Mad Mouse but has fox-like features, and claims to have fought at the Battle of Blackwater. Travelling back to Tyrion’s POV in that battle, GRRM gives us this scene, ripe with clues:

Quote

“The ground was sodden and slippery, equal parts mud and blood. His stallion stumbled over a corpse, his hooves sliding and churning the earth, and for an instant Tyrion feared his charge would end with him tumbling from the saddle before he even reached the foe ... Ahead of Tyrion was a knight whose surcoat showed a fox peering through a ring of flowers. Florent was his first thought, but helmless ran a close second. He smashed the man in the face with all the weight of axe and arm and charging horse, taking off half his head. 

- ACOK, Tyrion XIV

All right. With mud and blood as our setting, a symbolic ‘fox’ is shortened by half a head. Five foot two (158 cm) should meet most people’s requirements for a man being ‘half a head’ shorter than average. So: a fox whose ‘blood’ (or identity) is mingled with the mud. I believe this is GRRM’s first clue drawing parallels between HR and SS, two books before we meet the character.

Some other interesting parallels between the Florents and the crannogmen: House Florent’s seat is Brightwater Keep, whereas the Reeds inhabit Greywater Watch. Also, Florent is a name/surname drawn from the French language (meaning ‘flower’ or ‘flourishing’) and we all know that infamous slang term for the French: frog-eaters (I suspect GRRM is having a sly chuckle here).

Another possible side note here, too, is that although Florents have famously large ears, neither Brienne nor Sansa make note of this when describing Ser Shadrich. Not due to any lack of perceptiveness, however. Sansa goes so far as to notice a scar beneath his ear, but does not remark on the size of said ears. So his not being a Florent is kind of noteworthy. Clearly his fox-like features serve as symbolism of a less obvious kind.

In the following book, GRRM serves up another clue, this time in the Eyrie, where Ser Shadrich will of course later appear in his quest to find Sansa:

Quote

"Robert has weak eyes, but he loves to be read to," Lady Lysa confided. "He likes stories about animals the best. Do you know the little song about the chicken who dressed as a fox? I sing him that all the time, he never grows tired of it. And he likes to play hopfrog and spin-the-sword and come-into-my-castle, but you must always let him win.”

- ASOS, Sansa VI

For any out there with English as a second language, chickens and cowards are essentially the same thing. Cravens. Which, as we have seen, is one of the defining stereotypes of crannogmen in Westeros. And one might even see a mouse as being a cowardly creature, too, I suppose. One book to go before his introduction, and Howland/Shadrich is getting yet more foreshadowing. Note also the reference to hopfrog. Ser Shadrich essentially ‘leapfrogs’ over Brienne in the race to track down Sansa.

Turning back to House Florent’s sigil, note the name of the flowers surrounding the fox:

Quote

It is customary to grant a king the style Your Grace," announced Lord Florent. A red gold fox poked its shining snout out from his breastplate through a circle of lapis lazuli flowers.” - ACOK, Davos II

A quick image search for these flowers shows that their colour is indigo (some might even say violet):

https://www.woottensplants.com/product/agapanthus-lapis-lazuli/

For those taken with the Howland + Ashara = Meera theory, then it seems the House Florent sigil, in conjunction with Ser Shadrich being Howland, only adds further credence to this. Ashara’s eyes were famously violet - near enough to the colour of lapis lazuli flowers to be significant - so this could be GRRM subtly laying more groundwork for a future reveal. This will no doubt infuriate many, so just pretend you didn't read this bit and move on :) 

Well, it is known that GRRM likes to set out his clues in ‘sets of three’ and reveal answers before the questions have been asked. So in AGOT we learn who Howland is. In ACOK, we get our first clue, from the Tyrion POV. Then in ASOS Lysa gives us our second one. Then in AFFC we are presented with the mystery itself. A classic GRRM set-up. I have no claim to have invented this theory, nor do I have any idea what direction this storyline might take. I do agree, however, with those who believe that having Howland Reed sit out the story completely is a wasted opportunity, and that rescuing the daughter of one of his best friends is precisely the kind of thing we should expect. Ned's spirit living  on in those who loved him best is such a key theme of the books that it fits perfectly.

Again, I have to cite these sources as they did most of the groundwork for this theory, which I am only trying to bolster in my own small way.

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/

https://asongoficeandtootles.wordpress.com/2018/11/28/my-definitive-howland-reed-is-post/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143043-ser-shadrich-his-allies-and-adversaries-morgarth-byron-creighton-illifer/#comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKH_SVFYFAs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HR is still a lord. Slumming as Shadrich, stomping all over the Riverlands and the Vale is just so beneath him. I understand he's an eccentric of sorts, but that seems a little far to me. I could get into a "Shadrich is and agent/ family member/ ect. of Reed's" theory but not Reed himself.

I like what you did here though and kind of regret being the naysayer in the group. I just can't get past the idea of a lord of Westeros playing hedge knight for any significant period of time and in the war ravaged riverlands of all places.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Lapis Lazuli is a mineral.  It's considered a deep blue in color.  Presumably, Lord Florent used the Lapis Lazuli minerals to adorn his breastplate.  

Thus I think the real image is a red gold fox sticking his nose through a circle of blue flowers.

It is a mineral - but also a flower, as GRRM specifically states in the quote I gave. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

HR is still a lord. Slumming as Shadrich, stomping all over the Riverlands and the Vale is just so beneath him. I understand he's an eccentric of sorts, but that seems a little far to me. I could get into a "Shadrich is and agent/ family member/ ect. of Reed's" theory but not Reed himself.

I like what you did here though and kind of regret being the naysayer in the group. I just can't get past the idea of a lord of Westeros playing hedge knight for any significant period of time and in the war ravaged riverlands of all places.

I'm also very skeptical that he is Howland Reed.  If he is, his actions make no sense.  He is clearly coming from KL, but the only reason for Howland to be in KL would be to help Sansa.  But Sansa has no reason to trust him, and he has no way to protect her if he does somehow get her out of KL.  And Howland would have dealt with Brienne differently.  Announcing hisi interest in the reward means either that he gets himself an unwanted companion he has to shake off, or drives off a potentially useful ally.  Brienne is well-armed, well-equipped, probably competent (we know she is), and female - all very useful.  And that's not even including the fact that she knows Sansa's mother, which we know but he doesn't.

Plus, he has useful activities he can be doing in the Neck, like helping Norther stragglers get home.  Shadrich is Shadrich, and his presence in the Vale is probably meant to distract us from more real threats to Sansa. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

HR is still a lord. Slumming as Shadrich, stomping all over the Riverlands and the Vale is just so beneath him. I understand he's an eccentric of sorts, but that seems a little far to me. I could get into a "Shadrich is and agent/ family member/ ect. of Reed's" theory but not Reed himself.

I like what you did here though and kind of regret being the naysayer in the group. I just can't get past the idea of a lord of Westeros playing hedge knight for any significant period of time and in the war ravaged riverlands of all places.

I get that, and it’s possible - just less narratively interesting imho.

Let’s see. The neck has no traditional knights - why then a traditional ‘lord’? Also, if you can get behind HR sending both his children into potential danger based on a green dream, then I think this is not such a stretch. It seems the Ned/Howland bond is strong enough. And why draw attention to his ‘aged’ appearance if it’s not relevant?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Nevets said:

 And Howland would have dealt with Brienne differently.  Announcing hisi interest in the reward means either that he gets himself an unwanted companion he has to shake off, or drives off a potentially useful ally.  Brienne is well-armed, well-equipped, probably competent (we know she is), and female - all very useful.  And that's not even including the fact that she knows Sansa's mother, which we know but he doesn't.

 

I think the Brienne chapters clearly show that she would be a liability in any mission that involves subterfuge, as Shadrich’s clearly does. If he’s going to rescue Sansa it’ll be the crannogman way. Cunning, stealth and secrecy. Brienne is essentially the worst candidate for his style of operation, strength or no.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I'm also very skeptical that he is Howland Reed.  If he is, his actions make no sense.  He is clearly coming from KL, but the only reason for Howland to be in KL would be to help Sansa.  But Sansa has no reason to trust him, and he has no way to protect her if he does somehow get her out of KL. 

The timing of his being there is a very valid point, but not insurmountable perhaps? Certainly more than a nit-pick though, I'll grant you that.  Well, we do see through Arya's chapters in ASOS that heavy rain has been plaguing the riverlands. A burden to some, these would only serve to aid a crannogman on his journey, however. It's mentioned several times how they use the waterways to travel and are expert rivermen.

As for Sansa not knowing who he is. I agree this could be an issue, unless he knows he can tell her something about e.g. Ned that only close family or friends would know. And if she isn't convinced, well so be it. This story would be dull without some twists and turns long the way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I get that, and it’s possible - just less narratively interesting imho.

Let’s see. The neck has no traditional knights - why then a traditional ‘lord’? Also, if you can get behind HR sending both his children into potential danger based on a green dream, then I think this is not such a stretch. It seems the Ned/Howland bond is strong enough. And why draw attention to his ‘aged’ appearance if it’s not relevant?

Being "aged" points away from him being Howland.  Howland was Ned's age, and Ned was in his mid-30's, which isn't old even by Westeros standards. 

13 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I think the Brienne chapters clearly show that she would be a liability in any mission that involves subterfuge, as Shadrich’s clearly does. If he’s going to rescue Sansa it’ll be the crannogman way. Cunning, stealth and secrecy. Brienne is essentially the worst candidate for his style of operation, strength or no.

I'm not certain she is all that bad at subterfuge.  She was discreet enough to ask about Sansa by description, and not by name.  And if it came to it, Shadrich could be sneaky, while Brienne could be more obvious, and draw attention away from Sahdrich.  Plus the fact that she is female would help to reassure Sansa.  And Shadrich (or Howland) would need all the help he could get in that department.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Being "aged" points away from him being Howland.  Howland was Ned's age, and Ned was in his mid-30's, which isn't old even by Westeros standards. 

"Aged" by Sansa's standards, let's not forget. A 14 year old girl:

Quote

"We mice are quiet creatures." Ser Shadrich was so short that he might have been taken for a squire, but his face belonged to a much older man. She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, old battles in the scar beneath his ear, and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have. This was a man grown. Even Randa overtopped him, though.

TWOW - Alayne I

 

9 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I'm not certain she is all that bad at subterfuge.  She was discreet enough to ask about Sansa by description, and not by name.  And if it came to it, Shadrich could be sneaky, while Brienne could be more obvious, and draw attention away from Sahdrich.  Plus the fact that she is female would help to reassure Sansa.  And Shadrich (or Howland) would need all the help he could get in that department.

There's a thread about this in one of the links, I'd have to go back and read it, but I know I've seen this argument played out before. I guess Shadrich/Howland feels differently. 

As for her lack of subtlety, well the way GRRM starts her first POV chapter is actually kind of hilarious when you realise that not using Sansa's name is pretty much the only thing she doesn't do, and she literally asks everyone in the village except the donkey, too:

Quote
I am looking for a maid of three-and-ten," she told the grey-haired goodwife beside the village well. "A highborn maid and very beautiful, with blue eyes and auburn hair. She may have been traveling with a portly knight of forty years, or perhaps with a fool. Have you seen her?"
"Not as I recall, ser," the goodwife said, knuckling her forehead. "But I'll keep my eye out, that I will."
The blacksmith had not seen her either, nor the septon in the village sept, the swineherd with his pigs, the girl pulling up onions from her garden, nor any of the other simple folk that the Maid of Tarth found amongst the daub-and-wattle huts of Rosby. Still, she persisted.

What might seem to her as being thorough might be seen, by the more devious-minded, a very easy way to get yourself noticed and attract unwanted attention. Like Ned, she is not a great 'player of the game'. The fact that Shadrich makes it to the Eyrie means that he may know of Cat and Littlefinger's connection and put two and two together. If he knew that Littlefinger was involved then he has good reason to play his cards close to the chest and choose allies shrewdly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there is a good chance that the Mad Mouse is Howland Reed.  It's interesting that he is called the Mad Mouse because he runs towards danger - blood and battle.  This is what first responders do in a dangerous situation.  So who would he be attempting to save or rescue or protect, if not Sansa?  Howland would still serve House Stark and Sansa is without a direwolf.  I can easily see him acting as her sworn shield in spite of the story he tells Brienne about bounty hunting.

We don't exactly know where the Shady Glen is located.  Jojen says the Mountain and the Marsh are one.  So the Mountain clans and the Crannogmen are allied.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

The high glens seldom did them the courtesy of running north and south, so often they found themselves going long leagues in the wrong direction, and sometimes they were forced to double back the way they'd come. "If we took the kingsroad we could be at the Wall by now," Bran would remind the Reeds. He wanted to find the three-eyed crow, so he could learn to fly. Half a hundred times he said it if he said it once, until Meera started teasing by saying it along with him.

 

This alliance most likely formed during Robert's Rebellion when Howland rode with Theo Wull of the Mountain tribes.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Wull?" said Meera. "Jojen, wasn't there a Wull who rode with Father during the war?"

"Theo Wull." Jojen was breathing hard from the climb. "Buckets, they used to call him."

"That's their sigil," said Bran. "Three brown buckets on a blue field, with a border of white and grey checks. Lord Wull came to Winterfell once, to do his fealty and talk with Father, and he had the buckets on his shield. He's no true lord, though. Well, he is, but they call him just the Wull, and there's the Knott and the Norrey and the Liddle too. At Winterfell we called them lords, but their own folk don't."

 

Ser Shadrich's sigil:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"The merchant called you Shadrich."

"Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen. Some call me the Mad Mouse." He turned his shield to show her his sigil, a large white mouse with fierce red eyes, on bendy brown and blue. "The brown is for the lands I've roamed, the blue for the rivers that I've crossed. The mouse is me."

 

We know Howland is well travelled and that is what his sigil depicts.  Possibly he was called the Mad Mouse by Theo Wull,.  He may even have knighted Howland.  The Mountains and Marsh are one, but over wrinkled.

Quote

 

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I

"We mice are quiet creatures." Ser Shadrich was so short that he might have been taken for a squire, but his face belonged to a much older man. She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, old battles in the scar beneath his ear, and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have. This was a man grown. Even Randa overtopped him, though.

 

I think it would be very interesting if Howland is at the Vale in disguise to protect another of Ned Stark's daughter's.  If he is going to make an appearance in the next book; how will he show up in the story?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, lots of careful research here, but it all seems very speculative to me.

In that description of the Florent knight, the lapis lazuli flowers are on his breastplate.  It's fairly common for breastplates to be decorated with images made out of gemstones:  most notably Rhaegar's rubies, but we've seen some others too.  So the reference to "lapis lazuli flowers" may actually mean some other type of blue flowers that were picked out with lapis lazuli stones.

We've met two of Howland's children, and they don't seem to resemble Shadrich at all, except for being physically small.  No color matches in hair or eyes, and neither of them is described as "fox-faced."

If Ser Shadrich is "fox-faced," that seems more likely to suggest a connection to House Florent.  To start there and loop back around to House Reed seems like a stretch.

Also, can Howland ride a horse?  From what we've read about the crannogs, it seems like they probably don't have any horses there.

I would love to see Howland show up on page somewhere in the story.  But I don't think this is him, much as I'd like to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Aebram said:

Hmm, lots of careful research here, but it all seems very speculative to me.

In that description of the Florent knight, the lapis lazuli flowers are on his breastplate.  It's fairly common for breastplates to be decorated with images made out of gemstones:  most notably Rhaegar's rubies, but we've seen some others too.  So the reference to "lapis lazuli flowers" may actually mean some other type of blue flowers that were picked out with lapis lazuli stones.

From the Ice and Fire wiki:

Quote

House Florent of Brightwater Keep is a noble house from Brightwater Keep in the Reach, one of the main houses sworn to House Tyrell of Highgarden.[4][5] Their sigil is a red-gold fox's head encircled by blue flowers on ermine.[6][7][8]

Descended from Garth Greenhand by his daughter Florys the Fox,[3] House Florent boasts a superior claim to Highgarden by their close blood ties to the House Gardener, the extinct Kings of the Reach.[9]

The flowers are part of the sigil, and are mentioned several times in the book. The gemstones are nothing to do with House Florent, and if they were on the breastplate, they were surely gemstones fashioned to look like flowers as that's what Davos sees. Either way, GRRM is careful to point out lapis lazuli as a colour signifier, as opposed to sapphires, for example (which would not signify indigo/violet).

 

Quote

he golden rose of Highgarden was seen everywhere: sewn on the right breast of armsmen and servants, flapping and fluttering from the green silk banners that adorned lance and pike, painted upon the shields hung outside the pavilions of the sons and brothers and cousins and uncles of House Tyrell. As well Catelyn spied the fox-and-flowers of House Florent, Fossoway apples red and green, Lord Tarly's striding huntsman, oak leaves for Oakheart, cranes for Crane, a cloud of black-and-orange butterflies for the Mullendores.

 - ACOK, Catelyn II

Quote

They were five thousand, Sansa had heard, near as many as all the gold cloaks in the city. They flew the red or green apples of House Fossoway, the turtle of Estermont, and the fox-and-flowers of Florent, and their commander was Ser Guyard Morrigen, a famous southron knight who men now called Guyard the Green.

 - ACOK, Sansa IV

To your other points: Shadrich does not resemble a 'big-eared' Florent, that's why I mentioned the lack of description of his ears, despite a scar below the ear being noticed. His brown/blue wavy shield with the 'weirwood mouse' are clues to his true identity.

Don't forget, crannogmen are said to have 'grown close' to the squirrel-like Children of the Forest in ancient times, so a slightly 'foxy' appearance might be fitting. If Meera & Jojen's mother is Ashara then they would not be 'pure' crannogmen as such, so Howland would be the first time we have actually met one with all their 'traditional' features.

As for horses, in ASOS, Meera suggests stealing horses, which implies they can indeed ride them:

Quote

"We should steal horses like Meera wants," Bran said, "and ride to the Umbers up at Last Hearth."

- ASOS, Bran I

 

Edited by Sandy Clegg
tiny addition
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

It is a mineral - but also a flower, as GRRM specifically states in the quote I gave. 

No, it's not a flower.  The flower that you cited is Agapanthus.  The particular shade/variety of the Agapanthus you cited is labelled Lapis Lazuli.

Lapis Lazuli is a mineral with a striking blue color.  It's often used as a descriptor of other things.  Kind of like calling something ruby red.  

So Lord Florent has a very ornamental breastplate.  In much the same way that Rhaegar used rubies to adorn the dragon on his breastplate, Lord Florent uses Lapis Lazuli to adorn the ring of flowers on his.

Which gives us a clue that the flowers on the Florent sigil are a blue circle of flowers.  Which is an apparent call back to the blue roses on the crown that Rhaegar gives Lyanna.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, it's not a flower.  The flower that you cited is Agapanthus.  The particular shade/variety of the Agapanthus you cited is labelled Lapis Lazuli.

Lapis Lazuli is a mineral with a striking blue color.  It's often used as a descriptor of other things.  Kind of like calling something ruby red.  

So Lord Florent has a very ornamental breastplate.  In much the same way that Rhaegar used rubies to adorn the dragon on his breastplate, Lord Florent uses Lapis Lazuli to adorn the ring of flowers on his.

Which gives us a clue that the flowers on the Florent sigil are a blue circle of flowers.  Which is an apparent call back to the blue roses on the crown that Rhaegar gives Lyanna.

Well, we're kind of splitting hairs here but I think we more or less agree on the colour of the flowers as it seems the mineral has a wide variety of shades, which include indigo and violet:

https://www.gia.edu/lapis-lazuli-quality-factors

Quote

Variously described as indigo, royal, midnight, or marine blue, lapis lazuli’s signature hue is slightly greenish blue to violetish blue, medium to dark in tone, and highly saturated. In its most-prized form, lapis lazuli has no visible calcite, although it might contain gold-colored pyrite flecks. If the flecks are small and sprinkled attractively throughout the gem, their presence doesn’t necessarily lower lapis lazuli’s value. The lowest-quality lapis looks dull and green, the result of an excess of pyrite. Lapis with white calcite streaks is less valuable.

Lyanna (blue) has a connection to Howland Reed as we know, yet so may Ashara (violet). GRRM is certainly keeping us guessing about this :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...