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How much of Ramsay's and Roose's actions were planned?


James Steller
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Roose had no choice but to go along with the Stark's rebellion.  He had to go or else have the Starks destroy his house.   Somebody had to mind the land while he was away.  The only choice he had was his abnormal son.  I am sure he was hoping the son would have done a better job but that is the problem faced by fathers.  Roose was planning to betray Robb all along and only needed an opening. 

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On 9/23/2022 at 3:51 AM, Craving Peaches said:

But Roose rebelled alongside the Starks when they first rebelled. His armies clashed with the Lannisters. 

I thought that psychopaths, at least one type, had a lack of long term planning skills/didn't consider the long term consequences of their actions very much. Ramsay seems to want instant gratification and I don't think he has the patience to wait for long-term plans to pay off. So he may not have thought much about how his treatment of Lady Hornwood could affect his survival later on, looking only at what her death got him in the moment.

I think Roose thinks through everything while Ramsay thinks through basically nothing.

In my opinion, Roose is a bit stuck because he knows Ramsay is unsuitable but he doesn't want a boy lord ruling house Bolton. He seems to think he won't live much longer, which is odd.

Roose had to obey Robb. At least it had to look that way. The Starks would have done to his Dreadfort what the Tullys did to the Goodbrooks. 

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Just now, Arthur Peres said:

For me it's very clear that he botched the battle of the Green Fork on purpose.

I think he did too but I can't remember whether it was part of a larger plan to fool Tywin or not. But I think Roose may have used it to get rid of the Hornwoods so their lands could be claimed.

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5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think he did too but I can't remember whether it was part of a larger plan to fool Tywin or not. But I think Roose may have used it to get rid of the Hornwoods so their lands could be claimed.

It was not part of the plan, if anything Roose did everything Robb asked him, not to.

From the start Robb was hesitant to face Tywin:

Robb hesitated. “The Greatjon thinks we should take the battle to Lord Tywin and surprise him,” he said, “but the Glovers and the Karstarks feel we’d be wiser to go around his army and join up with Uncle Ser Edmure against the Kingslayer.” He ran his fingers through his shaggy mane of auburn hair, looking unhappy. “Though by the time we reach Riverrun . . . I’m not certain . . . ”

Then Robb started to explain his plan

Robb drew a map across the table, a ragged piece of old leather covered with lines of faded paint. One end curled up from being rolled; he weighed it down with his dagger. “Both plans have virtues, but . . . look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin’s host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him . . . by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won’t matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won’t be so easily surprised.”

“I’d leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway,” he said, “but once we’re below the Neck, I’d split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins.” He pointed. “When Lord Tywin gets word that we’ve come south, he’ll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun.”

Robb wanted to draw Tywin north, then take Jaime by surprise, he wanted Tywin on march so that he could not help Jaime and he did not thought to surprise Tywin, instead he wanted the infantry to stall for time. Greatjon was sacked because he idea was either too risk or too foolish, instead they go with Roose for cunning.

Tywin did fall for Robb's plan, and went on to march North like the young wolf wanted, he would waste even more days if Roose did not marched on him.

“My lord,” he said, “Ser Addam bid me tell you that the Stark host is moving down the causeway.”

“So the wolfling is leaving his den to play among the lions,” he said in a voice of quiet satisfaction. “Splendid. Return to Ser Addam and tell him to fall back. He is not to engage the northerners until we arrive, but I want him to harass their flanks and draw them farther south.”

“We are well situated here,” Ser Kevan pointed out. “Close to the ford and ringed by pits and spikes. If they are coming south, I say let them come, and break themselves against us.”

“The boy may hang back or lose his courage when he sees our numbers,” Lord Tywin replied. “The sooner the Starks are broken, the sooner I shall be free to deal with Stannis Baratheon. Tell the drummers to beat assembly, and send word to Jaime that I am marching against Robb Stark.”

If anything, Roose should have stopped his march the moment he is harassed by the Lannisters skirmisher, and either retreat to draw Tywin even more, or picked a place to defend himself. Tywin would just see that as Robb losing his temper and being coward as his coments show.

His father had set a grueling pace, and it had taken its toll. Men wounded in the battle kept up as best they could or were abandoned to fend for themselves. Every morning they left a few more by the roadside, men who went to sleep never to wake. Every afternoon a few more collapsed along the way. And every evening a few more deserted, stealing off into the dusk. Tyrion had been half-tempted to go with them.

He had been upstairs, enjoying the comfort of a featherbed and the warmth of Shae’s body beside him, when his squire had woken him to say that a rider had arrived with dire news of Riverrun. So it had all been for nothing. The rush south, the endless forced marches, the bodies left beside the road . . . all for naught. Robb Stark had reached Riverrun days and days ago.

Tywin was days away from helping Jaime, he forced marched his host and still came way too late to help Jaime's host, but Roose actions only gained Robb a single day, if he had retreated back already would have acomplished his mission, instead he wasted more than a 1/3 of his army for nothing.

Roose went against the purpose of his command and seeked battle, he tired his men with the intention of surprising Tywin just to threw away the element of surprise, he waited for the Lannisters to form up, he abandoned the high ground, he threw the men of other houses into the mess and shoot them with arrows, and preserved his forces during all this.

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