Ukraine 20: We’re not bluffing and you can tell we aren’t by how we say we aren’t bluffing…

[Kalbear]

Historically when people refer to 'the Ukraine' it is a way of denying Ukrainians their nationality and personhood; it isn't a country, it is a place. It is a very real way of discounting Ukraine's right to exist. That you keep doing it when making arguments justifying the Ukraine war is not a great look. 

Also, Edward Snowden is now a Russian citizen, which I think also means he can be drafted:

 

 

[James Arryn]

1 minute ago, Spockydog said:

I had a Ukrainian girlfriend once. She fucking hated people doing that. That's why I brought it up. 

Right, that’s what I was trying to say, it’s up to them, not some arbitrary rule about ‘the’.

[Ran]

On 9/23/2022 at 6:17 PM, Fez said:

And a bunch of unhappy reservists in the Russian capital (St. Petersburg at the time) waiting to be sent to die in an unpopular war is one of the main reasons the Tsar was overthrown in 1917.

Maybe why Putin has allegedly decamped to a dacha in the middle of a forest?

[Spockydog]

2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Right, that’s what I was trying to say, it’s up to them, not some arbitrary rule about ‘the’.

Well then. So perhaps you should maybe try and employ a little bit of respect for those people, rather than deliberately, and rather pompously, misnaming their nation. 

[James Arryn]

Just now, KalVsWade said:

Historically when people refer to 'the Ukraine' it is a way of denying Ukrainians their nationality and personhood; it isn't a country, it is a place. It is a very real way of discounting Ukraine's right to exist. That you keep doing it when making arguments justifying the Ukraine war is not a great look. 

Also, Edward Snowden is now a Russian citizen, which I think also means he can be drafted:

 

 

Kal, did you not understand my post? The apology? Or the part where I literally said, in different words, what you just said above? “excepting where, as in Ukraine, the people have expressed an association with that usage and reject it.”

[Ran]

Folks, lets stop with recriminations and invective. Move on.

[James Arryn]

Just now, KalVsWade said:

Here's the thing. 

Regardless of how you think you're coming across and what you think you've intended to write, what you're actually writing isn't doing the thing you say you want. That you blame people repeatedly for not reading your posts should indicate that maybe, just maybe, you're not being particularly clear in your writing and the onus of changing is not on them, it should be on you. 

For instance, you went into a rant about how 'the' is perfectly fine in some cases, which completely ignores the point about why Ukraine should not be called the Ukraine. In general this technique does not show remorse or regret for actions but instead is used to justify shitty behavior. It is a very standard example of how not to apologize. 

I apologize. I thought by saying I apologized, regretted it, said it out of old habit, explained that what matters is that Ukranians have a negative association with it and reject it that I was saying I apologized, regretted it, said it out of old habit, explained that what matters is that Ukranians have a negative association with it and reject it. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Ah, no?

First, I’d suggest actually reading the posts you are trying to critique, the ones which plainly, explicitly and repeatedly state that Russia has no legitimate right to invade Ukraine. That it’s ridiculous claim is surpassed in ridiculousness by the US’s right to invade Iraq is in no way, shape or form saying it is a legitimate one. That would be like me saying that Padraig’s response was arguably better than yours…is that me saying I consider his response persuasive in any way? No, not even slightly. But at least he doesn’t lead with a false tautology followed immediately by accusing me of doing the exact opposite of what I have done. The mole is taller than the inchworm, but neither are tall by our standards. It is a condemnation of the war crime we all know occurred and for which no one has suffered even the slightest penalty, which makes it, in the legal sense, an ongoing event. That another war crime, slightly less ludicrous in premise (but worse in execution) is presently occurring does not change the past.

 

But the past does change the present. Is my point. We all agree, or at least most of us, with the talking heads et al who say China and Taiwan are paying very close attention to what is happening in Ukraine. Why is that? I enjoy watching gymnastics, so please explain to me how and why China will learn from Russia’s invasion while Russia apparently took no notes from the US’s invasionS.  
 

Now, I ignored it the first time, but you’re repeating it again, this bullshit about how I edited out my ‘extra inaccurate’ statements. What we’re these? As pretty much anyone here who knows me can tell you, my edits are to add, not subtract, or correct typos or grammatical errors I notice on reread. I made no claims I later deleted, that’s just bullshit. Please tell me what I’m supposed to have said, I truthfully am interested in what you will say here. 

edit: there, I just edited to change ‘behaviour’ to ‘invasion’ for better symmetry. That’s the kind of editing I do, plus this bit here where I ADD on. 

 

If Russia had learned from Iraq, the lesson would surely be “Don’t do it.”  Setting aside the morality of it, the USA gained nothing, and lost a lot from that invasion.

[James Arryn]

Just now, SeanF said:

If Russia had learned from Iraq, the lesson would surely be “Don’t do it.”  Setting aside the morality of it, the USA gained nothing, and lost a lot from that invasion.

American companies made a killing. Including ones closely tied to members of the administration.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2021/ProfitsOfWar

And America lost virtually nothing. And that was their worst case scenario. But moreover, the lesson was ‘it doesn’t matter if virtually the entire planet thinks it’s wrong, you can do what you want and get away with it’.

[Werthead]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If Russia had learned from Iraq, the lesson would surely be “Don’t do it.”  Setting aside the morality of it, the USA gained nothing, and lost a lot from that invasion.

Russia learned from Afghanistan (their own experiences and America's) and Iraq that the lesson was "don't do it." But Putin did it anyway, even though many Russians thought it was a stupid idea.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

American companies made a killing. Including ones closely tied to members of the administration.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2021/ProfitsOfWar

And America lost virtually nothing. And that was their worst case scenario. But moreover, the lesson was ‘it doesn’t matter if virtually the entire planet thinks it’s wrong, you can do what you want and get away with it’.

That lesson is only accurate if your military is as big as the next 20 nations combined and you have the world's largest economy. If you have the economy equivalent of Italy and your military has not been upgraded logistically since the 1930s chances are that's not a similar answer. 

Again, this equivalence that because the US does it Russia can do it too is pretty absurd. 

[Jace, Extat]

Yo, every history book I read till I was years and years out of college called it The Ukraine. Including books I read IN college celebrating Ukraine's freedom from the Soviet Union.  Give a motherfucker a break you jackals 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Firebrand Jace said:

Yo, every history book I read till I was years and years out of college called it The Ukraine. Including books I read IN college celebrating Ukraine's freedom from the Soviet Union.  Give a motherfucker a break you jackals 

You're fucking old 

[Jace, Extat]

I know

 

Youth has fled me utterly

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Russia learned from Afghanistan (their own experiences and America's) and Iraq that the lesson was "don't do it." But Putin did it anyway, even though many Russians thought it was a stupid idea.

I can think of few wars of conquest that have turned out well since 1940. Usually, the defender wins.

 

[TormundsWoman]

22 minutes ago, Firebrand Jace said:

Yo, every history book I read till I was years and years out of college called it The Ukraine. Including books I read IN college celebrating Ukraine's freedom from the Soviet Union.  Give a motherfucker a break you jackals 

I concur Firebrand Jace. the voice of reason

I mean dude just called US- America and the US companies- American Co. He'd be assassinated in some international forums from South America I know of, simply because well: geography. We clearly are the "Los Estado -Unidenses"! Fucking "muricans need to learn geography...

[Zorral]

3 hours ago, Spockydog said:

"I'm going on vacation to the France."

No.  I'd say, "I'm going on vacation on/to the Riviera."  

I'm sorry.  I just couldn't resist.  Please accept all my apologies for attempting levity as a defuse tactic. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

2 hours ago, Spockydog said:

Who the hell has ever said "the France?" 

 

JRM, I suppose. Could I use the telephone joker, please?

[Zorral]

Someone Elsewhere suggested now that Snowden is a Russian citizen, he can go fight for Mother Russia in Ukraine.  

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

Someone Elsewhere suggested now that Snowden is a Russian citizen, he can go fight for Mother Russia in Ukraine.  

I read he can’t legally be drafted as he doesn’t have prior military experience. Legally?   Here’s your rusty rifle Comrade Snowden, now get moving.